dsm1963, this is your thread

[Elizabeth]

I did report this malfunction, seems better today, still copying before hitting submit as I am also a tad perturbed when all vanishes. On the other hand, whatever appears is the next thing to work on, so let's go with this.
Choice seems to be a thought,
I notice we are not in control of much. Or this life and this forum would be much more satisfactory.
Yet, we want control.
I'd asked you to look at your thoughts, and notice how much of a self is needed in life. This is, of course, partly related to control. Which you probably noticed :-)
So if your answer ever gets to me, we are looking at control, directorship, and ownership of experience. In thoughts ABOUT our experiences.
Much love, Elizabeth

[dsm1963]

Upon awakening this morning the first thing that is directly recognized is the presence of awareness. Get up, put on robe...house is cold...use toilet. Head to kitchen to take my meds. Thought, "Today is Thursday." Make sure take pills from appropriately marked day of the week on the pill box. Routine time to make coffee. I-thought, "I hate trying to separate these coffee filters." Pour water in pot, empty into coffee maker. Add coffee grounds to filter. Turn on coffee maker. Thought, "It sure has been a mild winter so far. Boy were the predictions wrong for a bad winter here in the Chicago area. No appreciable snow to speak of and temps in the 40's most of the time." Out of habit while the coffee is brewing, log onto computer. Check for message from Elizabeth. I-thought, "I wonder what she'll say since I didn't follow her advice to copy my message and now am delayed again in the process." Read your message and am relieved that you didn't scold me! "I-thought, "Well at least today I'm in a better mood to try and write again. What shall I write about in light of her updated message? She said stream of consciousness is best. So I guess I'll write about what happens this morning." Coffee ready. Pour a cup, add sweetener and milk. Sip it. Thought, "That tastes sooo good!" I-thought, Before i eat anything I'd better weigh myself. Sure have been losing the pounds with that Sensa." Weigh myself. Lost two pounds since yesterday when I had gained two pounds. I-thought, "At least it's not an upwards trend. Must have been water weight or something. I've lost ten pounds in two weeks! And no exercise. Oh how I hate exercise." Go back to kitchen. Pour second cup of coffee. (Fast coffee drinker.) Get back on computer. Quickly browse facebook newsfeed. I"thought, "I'm hungry now for my single egg." Go back to kitcen and make egg. Sprinkle on Sensa. Eat egg. Drink OJ and take vitamins. Put dishes in dishwasher.

Time to take a shower. Turn on the water and check temperature. Like it hot. Step into shower. Wet wash cloth and lather with shower gel. Begin washing body. Thought pops up, "That's so funny that my friend Donna got a director's job at a community theater in Hawaii, and she found a hand size native idol in the cavernous portion of the theater. She is afraid to remove it after that Brady Bunch episode." I laugh. Continue to enjoy the invigorating hot water. I-thought pops up, "I must remember this shower experience so that I can write about it for Elizabeth." Now a song pops into my head and keeps repeating. I-thought, "Why am I thinking about that stupid song that I don't even like: Run-around-Sue!" With song still playing in my head, apply shampoo and wash hair. Rinse hair and body free of soap. Turn off water. Towel dry. Song has disappeared unnoticed, "thankfully" I think.

Your turn Elizabeth....

[Elizabeth]

Well, I am laughing my ass off and making a note to get some of that Sensa stuff!
Thank you for not scolding me, either.

Control, directorship, and ownership. What's really running your life?
Look at what you wrote. How many thoughts did NOT have an I attached? Ex: Today is Thursday.
Look at it and check, how many thoughts had an I, a story about an I, or a story about something attached to an I?
What characterizes an I thought?
What does it do?
Could you put together a story of you without one?

And lastly, without a story, is there a Doug?

Much love, Elizabeth

[dsm1963]

Thoughts without an I attached:
1.Today is Thursday
2.It sure has been a mild winter so far. Boy were the predictions wrong for a bad winter here in the Chicago area. No appreciable snow to speak of and temps in the 40's most of the time.
3.That tastes sooo good!
4.thankfully

I-thoughts:
1.I hate trying to separate these coffee filters.
2.I wonder what she'll say since I didn't follow her advice to copy my message and now am delayed again in the process.
3.Well at least today I'm in a better mood to try and write again. What shall I write about in light of her updated message? She said stream of consciousness is best. So I guess I'll write about what happens this morning.
4.Before I eat anything I'd better weigh myself. Sure have been losing the pounds with that Sensa.
5.At least it's not an upwards trend. Must have been water weight or something. I've lost ten pounds in two weeks! And no exercise. Oh how I hate exercise.
6..I'm hungry now for my single egg.
7..That's so funny that my friend Donna got a director's job at a community theater in Hawaii, and she found a hand size native idol in the cavernous portion of the theater. She is afraid to remove it after that Brady Bunch episode.
8.I must remember this shower experience so that I can write about it for Elizabeth.
9.Why am I thinking about that stupid song that I don't even like: Run-around-Sue!

What characterizes an I-thought is how something is related to how the experience can be controlled by me: I-thoughts #1, 2, 5, 8, 9; How I can direct the show #3, 4, 8; How I am owning something in the thoughts #2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
An I-thought perpetuates the ongoing story making about this character called Doug. Is there a Doug without a story? Without a story there is no more role for the character Doug with his associated I, me, mine. At the same time Doug could exist without believing the stories and still "play" a role.

Is this all just conceptualized knowledge since I have read so much? Or is there something more 'real' happening? I honestly cannot tell the difference.

[Elizabeth]

"What characterizes an I-thought is how something is related to how the experience can be controlled by me: I-thoughts #1, 2, 5, 8, 9; How I can direct the show #3, 4, 8; How I am owning something in the thoughts #2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
An I-thought perpetuates the ongoing story making about this character called Doug. Is there a Doug without a story? Without a story there is no more role for the character Doug with his associated I, me, mine. At the same time Doug could exist without believing the stories and still "play" a role.

Is this all just conceptualized knowledge since I have read so much? Or is there something more 'real' happening? I honestly cannot tell the difference."

Before there was a Doug, with a story ABOUT a Doug, telling DOUG all ABOUT DOUG, there was a child. A baby. Who existed without the story. Who saw life directly, and vividly. Who didn't have layers and layers of knowledge and illusion interpreting life for a DOUG.
Is there a DOUG without a story?
Can a character exist without a story?

[dsm1963]

I realize that there cannot be a Doug without a story. What I was suggesting with not believing the story and "playing" a role as Doug is perhaps that is what happens after realizing that there is no Doug without a story. Because the story goes on even after liberation. But there is a seeing of the story as not true. And there will always be a recognition of Doug as a "play" actor in the untrue story. It's a seeing through and a recognition of the falseness of the story and person that matters. Not that there continues to be an untrue story about a non-real Doug. How else do I respond to my name when called after liberation? Out of habit from a formerly believed in character with a formerly believed in story?

But there can be no Doug as now experienced without a story about that Doug. The rest is conceptual conjecture as it is not my current experience.

[Elizabeth]

Hi Doug,
"I realize that there cannot be a Doug without a story. What I was suggesting with not believing the story and "playing" a role as Doug is perhaps that is what happens after realizing that there is no Doug without a story. Because the story goes on even after liberation. But there is a seeing of the story as not true. And there will always be a recognition of Doug as a "play" actor in the untrue story. It's a seeing through and a recognition of the falseness of the story and person that matters. Not that there continues to be an untrue story about a non-real Doug. How else do I respond to my name when called after liberation? Out of habit from a formerly believed in character with a formerly believed in story?

But there can be no Doug as now experienced without a story about that Doug. The rest is conceptual conjecture as it is not my current experience."

There is no unreal Doug playing a role.
There is no real Doug behind the Doug playing a role.

Take off all the labels and look. Without a thought. Just look.
Anything there?

[dsm1963]

If I take off all labels, direct experience reveals that nothing is there but awareness, which is a label for experiencing. Something is still happening, call it knowing, experiencing, consciousness, awareness. Experience cannot be separated from knowing, experiencing, consciousness, awareness. As long as there is life there will be awareness of it except when unconscious as in sleep or under general anesthesia. Even in sleep there is awareness of dreams.

[Elizabeth]

If I take off all labels, direct experience reveals that nothing is there but awareness, which is a label for experiencing. Something is still happening, call it knowing, experiencing, consciousness, awareness. Experience cannot be separated from knowing, experiencing, consciousness, awareness. As long as there is life there will be awareness of it except when unconscious as in sleep or under general anesthesia. Even in sleep there is awareness of dreams.

Cool.
So are you awareness? Is it possible to BE awareness?

[dsm1963]

What else am I but awareness? Awareness is what defines me without a self. Without awareness there would be nothing,; no experiencing of the experience of being.

[Elizabeth]

What else am I but awareness? Awareness is what defines me without a self. Without awareness there would be nothing,; no experiencing of the experience of being.

I can tell this is why you are here. You were very patient with all the words so far, thank you, but I needed to see where the sticky bit was, exactly.
The last refuge of an I, is often 'I am awareness'.
I know some spiritual masters say this as a pointer.
It's not the destination. Still the finger, not the moon.

A self exists only in thought. It is a construct. Not a real thing. A character.
It has artificially drawn boundaries. Which exist only in thought. Me, mine, I, you.
It claims to move and direct a 'your life''. It creates that life in thoughts about a 'your life.
It labels and possesses. Possession exists only in thought.
It tells you 'I am awareness".
This is a thought.
One more step. Beyond the thought. (what have you got to lose?)

What is there without a single thought of a 'you'?
Any 'you' at all? Even awareness of awareness?

Awareness is real. But there is no separate you to be aware. Except as a thought about awareness. Which is the last separation.
Enter this moment and look.
Without even a sense of self, what is there?
LOOK. and tell me what you see.

Love.

[dsm1963]

With eyes closed, what is known is emptiness. The same emptiness that is there during some meditation sessions. Just became aware of the clock ticking. Birds chirping outside the window. The heat blowing through the vents. There is no perceiver...only perception by the senses, interpreted by the brain! The body/brain is naturally perceiving without a perceiver self! Suddenly I-thoughts return, "Good morning Mom." I tell her that, "I was just listening to the birds chirping, the clock ticking, the heat blowing."...to myself I think, "I don't want Elizabeth to know that I live with my parents because I have been out of work for so long. There now she knows. How does that feel? Not so bad. What difference does it make to her anyway?" There is stillness. There is perception of the computer tower making its working noises. The heat is still blowing, The clock is ticking. The birds are still chirping. There is the sound of mom's spoon in the cereal bowl coming from the kitchen. There is a realization that the I appears and disappears. If it disappears, it is not permanent, it is not real in the sense of having waking constancy like awareness. Awareness does not need a knower. It just happens naturally through the awake brain/body. This is the first time that there has been knowing without a knower claiming ownership. Well maybe it has gone unnoticed before. "Who" knows? The brain/body doesn't need a self to experience! There is a feeling of being on the brink, the edge of the abyss of peaceful bliss. There is gratitude for Elizabeth's pointers, especially this last one.

[dsm1963]

Speaking conventionally, as how else could I, I feel like that song by Lady Gaga...I'm on the edge of glory!

[dsm1963]

How could there not be recognition of this no-self before? There had to be other moments when the self was in abeyance, but because the experience wasn't be owned, directed, controlled by an I, they went unnoticed. Unclaimed by a self! It seems so obvious now. Sure the old habitual I-thoughts will pop up but now there is recognition that an I or self is not necessary to experience, to be aware. The self is an artificial construction to organize the chaos of perception. The natural processes of the body/brain will do that anyway without an I to grab hold. The self wants to control and own nearly every thought. I now know this is not necessary. There is no going back. There is a need for ongoing support to maintain this recognition. I know that you refer folk out to your support site. I would love this.

Elizabeth thank you so much for the pointers and loving support! Glad you got to laugh your ass off during the process! I did too! Gosh I'm just stunned at how simple this really is. It was always there. Just couldn't see through the habitual ways of perceiving.

Beautiful!! Amazing!! Simply present without a self!! Never thought this would happen!!

Much love and gratitude,
Doug

[Elizabeth]

Wow. Always such a pleasure to look with people, so fresh to feel, each time. Thank you!
Let's run a few questions by the new view, to nail it down and so others can pass their eyes over this and make sure I didn't miss anything that could be helpful.
Then Ilona can let you into Facebook Unleashed, where people don't think you quite mad if you speak of this.
The energy around this can be quite fluffy for a bit.
Part of the fun.
So, please use this as a rehearsal, to tell someone innocent about your experience, if they asked you:
1/So, what is a self?
2/Does it exist in any way, shape, or form?
3/How does it feel, before and after seeing? Is it different?
4/ What made you see this?

Much love. Elizabeth