realizing selflessness

[whoknows]

Woke up this morning, as I do all too often, to the low-level torment of feeling resistant to what I need to do today—in this case, both the project I’m working on for my spouse and a new editing project.

I didn’t especially feel like doing work for my class either, but I felt less resistance to that, so I checked my class discussion board and responded to the only new post so far this morning, and I checked my school email and had nothing new. Now, back to the other stuff.

I really hope this is some sort of fucking “portal” for inquiry, which would seem to redeem it in some way. I am so sick of this of this particular sort of suffering!!! Well, y’know, I’m sick of all suffering, but there’s something really annoying about this type of suffering that’s so persistent and seems, in a way, so silly and like it should be easier to deal with.

Remembered to notice bodily sensations while I was still lying in bed in the dark with spouse asleep next to me. Unsurprisingly, the first things I noticed were tightness in the throat and constriction in the breathing, by which I mean tightness from chest down through abdomen, plus tears arising.

Since the emotions are still active, let’s take another look. In addition to sobbing— Well, let’s see, what’s actually involved in sobbing? Tears. Convulsions of torso, coordinated with small sounds of bursts of air coming from throat, which is tightening and releasing over and over. Face all squinched up, all around eyes, forehead, cheeks, nose. Tendency to hunch over and cross arms. No vocalization with sobbing. Might let that happen if I were alone in the house.

I feel like I should go scroll through your old posts to see what I can do other than noticed bodily sensations, but I don’t want to! I’m resistant to that also.

My mind starts to offer up things like noticing that suffering is, oddly, made of bodily sensations, which (even in this case) aren’t really all that bad, plus thoughts, which come and go and seem insubstantial. Or the mind starts to try to recall insights I’ve had in the past about “picking and choosing.” Or I try to remember what it was like when it seemed, once or twice, like I should be able to simply decide to let go of thoughts (although, even at the time, that seemed a little fanciful). But screw all that. Either it seems ineffectual or I stubbornly don’t want to expend any sort of effort and just want the suffering to magically vanish.

There’s always the option of seeing if I can just sob it out: have a little temper tantrum and not try to pretend there’s any hope of doing anything else.

Did some sobbing. Thought, “So, start every day with some sobbing into my pillow? Doesn’t seem like a great long-term solution.”

Thought of the thing I found a last week in another thread about noticing and separating the thoughts and sensations, letting them remain, and then checking, does anything need to be done about the thought right now? Well, yeah! I mean, I need to get some work done, and it’s hard to proceed while I’m still feeling this resistant and convulsively sobbing, and even once I’ve worn this out the sobbing in two minutes or five minutes or, at most, maybe ten minutes, then . . . Well, OK, I was going to say, then I’m left with the same resistance I started with. But will I be?

If I am, then do I just bully my way through and do the little executive functioning tricks like breaking the task down into the tiniest possible pieces: find the email about the editing job, open the instructions, read them, open the document to be edited, open my editing cheat sheet, read the first sentence of the document . . . Hmm, I kind of hate to admit it, but that sounds manageable. But the project for spouse is much more amorphous and emotion-laden, and I just want it to go away!!!

OK, sobbing it is . . .

Enough writing.

I’m reluctant to post this right now, when it might draw your attention away from what I sent you yesterday, while you might be composing a response to that at the end of your day. But, well, it’s related. Whatever. Here it is.

[whoknows]

Continuing from the last post: The sobbing was over in less than ten minutes. It did nothing noticeable to relieve the resistance to getting work done or the unhappiness about the resistance to getting work done.

Realized I left out one component of the current sticky blob of suffering: making decisions, which involves more energy and angst for me (and others of my neurotype) than for most people.

* * * * *

After lunch: Happy to report that the blob of suffering is dissipating.

What finally helped was that my husband, who could tell I was suffering over this project (though I don't think he knew the extent of it) figured out ways to make the project simpler and to be less perfectionistic about it. I had been trying and failing to loosen up the suffering just within the K organism (plus interacting with you), but in some important ways, K is part of a larger K-and-spouse organism. And that is perhaps especially relevant when dealing with what is obviously a K-and-spouse issue.

There are now only a few remaining steps in the project, and they are fairly straightforward and shouldn’t involve too much frustration for either of us. There’s still some related resistance and unhappiness but probably not enough to lead to my starting the day tomorrow by sobbing into my pillow.

Also got some editing done without much trouble, though it probably helped that doing the editing was a credible and absorbing way of putting off tackling the even more unpleasant task.

Still feel like I’m missing some sort of insight here about dealing with suffering.

[whoknows]

Have I been put on an LU diet?
Is it for my own good?
Could I try getting more exercise instead?

[vinceschubert]

"Have I been put on an LU diet?"
not intentionally.
..but good to look at dependence (or whatever it is)

v

[whoknows]

Hi vince,

but good to look at dependence (or whatever it is)

A bit of stream of consciousness here:
Yeah, it does seem like I’ve become dependent in a way on feedback and prompting and questions from you. “Dependent” sounds rather negative, though, like it’s a bad thing. A key feature of the way my mom raised me was to be independent, and that was a good thing to a large degree, but it was maybe a bit too extreme and has caused me some trouble also (especially with being married).
I’ve appreciated the daily boost here. It seems to help keep the momentum up, to keep the focus and the engagement going, or something like that. (I recognize the goal-orientation in that.)
And of course I’ve admitted that responding to your posts has also been a satisfying and worthwhile-seeming way to pass some time every day. And I just enjoy interacting with you.
Maybe I feel more needy and impatient about getting your responses when I’m in the midst of more suffering than usual, like the past several days.
I would really love any insight you might have about how I could have maybe added fewer extra arrows to this bout of suffering or removed them more efficiently.
With gratitude,
K

[vinceschubert]

There's something rather interesting in what you've written here.
First, about dependence. i used that word as a description, not a judgement. i don't see anything inherently wrong with enjoying our exchanges, looking forward to replies, or finding that our conversations help keep your interest alive.

But I'm curious about what happens\ed when the word “dependent” appeared.
Does it carry a little disapproval? Perhaps a sense that you should be more independent? That needing something from another person is somehow a failing?

You mentioned your upbringing. There may be some interesting conditioning there. Not something to fix, just something that might be worth discovering when it shows itself.
How long have the morning sobbing been happening?

Now, this caught my attention:
“I would really love any insight you might have about how I could have maybe added fewer extra arrows to this bout of suffering or removed them more efficiently.”
Ha! Can you see what's happening?
There's been suffering. And now there's a wish to discover how you might have suffered less, or managed the suffering more efficiently.
Perfectly understandable.
But is there perhaps another arrow being prepared?
“I should have been able to handle that better.”
Or even:
“After all this inquiry, surely I should be getting better at not creating suffering.”
i'm not saying those thoughts are necessarily present. I'm inviting you to notice whether something like that is involved.
Here's the thing about the second arrow. Once it has happened, it's happened. We can't go back and prevent it. And attempting to make sure it never happens again can become another exhausting project.

v

But there is something we can discover.

When an unpleasant experience arises, there's often an immediate response. Then a response to that response. Perhaps anger about being angry, frustration about being frustrated, or disappointment about still suffering.

And before long, we're caught up in the stories about the whole business.

What interests me is not how quickly you can remove those extra arrows, but what happens when they're recognised as happenings.

Perhaps something softens. Perhaps nothing changes. Perhaps there's even irritation that recognising them hasn't helped!

That's all interesting.

And remember, noticing doesn't mean that practical problems should be ignored. Sometimes something genuinely needs attending to. Asking for help, setting boundaries, resting, or changing circumstances can all be appropriate responses.

But none of that requires a separate self to be running the show.

Now, getting back to your desire for my responses.

Suppose you're having a difficult day and there's a longing for a reply from me.

What happens if no reply comes?

Perhaps disappointment. Perhaps impatience. Perhaps the thought that a reply would help make things okay.

And then, how do you react to those reactions?

That's the invitation.

Not to become independent of me. Not to stop enjoying our conversations. Not even to stop wanting a reply.

Just to become interested in what turns up.

You don't need me to provide the next thing to investigate. Life is already doing that, abundantly!

And there's no need to prove you can manage without guidance, either.

What if the whole business of needing help, getting help, wanting more help, and sometimes not getting help is simply more of THIS?

No independence project. No dependence problem. No second-arrow-removal project.

Just discovering.

And I suspect there's plenty more to discover in how you respond to what arises, particularly when life isn't going the way you'd prefer.

Not because there's something wrong with K.

Because there's something fascinating about how this organism has learned to respond to life.

[whoknows]

Part 1 of a reply to your latest post:

But I'm curious about what happens\ed when the word “dependent” appeared.
Does it carry a little disapproval? Perhaps a sense that you should be more independent? That needing something from another person is somehow a failing?

Yes, the word “dependent” does carry some of that for me, presumably largely because of my mom’s emphasis on fostering my independence (and because this value is also floating around in the wider culture). I’ve been aware for a long time that I have deep-seated and sometimes problematic sense that it’s best not to be dependent on others.

How long have the morning sobbing been happening?

I might’ve been unclear about that. I’m not sobbing every morning. When I said that starting my day with sobbing didn’t seem like a great long-term solution for dealing with my suffering, I only meant that that was the best strategy I’d come up with yesterday morning, after I’d considered and dismissed some inquiry-ish strategies. But I do hope I can find a different go-to strategy for when I wake up feeling terribly oppressed by the day ahead.

There's been suffering. And now there's a wish to discover how you might have suffered less, or managed the suffering more efficiently.
Perfectly understandable.
But is there perhaps another arrow being prepared?
“I should have been able to handle that better.”
Or even:
“After all this inquiry, surely I should be getting better at not creating suffering.”

No, that’s not it. I wish it were. That is, I wish I understood myself to have made so much “progress” in dealing with suffering that it feels like some sort of failure or setback when I can’t deal with it well.
But in fact, I feel like I’ve made almost no progress in dealing with whatever goes on around my resistance to doing tasks I need to do, and it’s an almost daily struggle—and here come the tears.
I get that what happened has happened. I was pleading for help with how to deal with it better in the future, like today. I was looking for post-game analysis to improve my play going forward.
And I think that’s what this is:

When an unpleasant experience arises, there's often an immediate response. Then a response to that response. Perhaps anger about being angry, frustration about being frustrated, or disappointment about still suffering.

And before long, we're caught up in the stories about the whole business.

What interests me is not how quickly you can remove those extra arrows, but what happens when they're recognised as happenings.

Perhaps something softens. Perhaps nothing changes. Perhaps there's even irritation that recognising them hasn't helped!

That's all interesting.

You must be used to getting this reaction that my brain offered: “Well, I’m glad you find it fucking ‘interesting,’ vince! I’m in pain here!” But I know that's not fair. :-)

Getting ready to leave the house and get some work done this morning, on my class and on project for spouse. (Editing can be put off until tomorrow.) Will keep an eye on what’s going on.

More later (but maybe not before the Zoom meeting) . . .

[whoknows]

Part 2 of reply to your latest post:

You invited me to look at reactions to reactions and, more specifically, to look at what happens when reactions to reactions are recognized as happenings.

Some of today’s unpleasantness:
resistance to tasks I needed to do;
communication snafu with spouse plus associated defensiveness and wanting to correct his image of me;
looking at my history of not being good at standing up for what I need or want.
Reactions to all of that included discouragement, frustration, anger, weariness, and fear, along with stories about wondering if some of these things will ever improve and worrying that there’s a mountain of old psychological crap I have to climb over or dig through to get to awakening.
The “maybe it’ll never improve” thoughts were immediately seen as dubious once articulated.
But I’m not so sure about the “barrier to awakening” thoughts.

During our afternoon sit, I was was starting to mentally construct the list above and was still feeling submerged in all of that unhappiness.
It was only toward the end of the sit that I surfaced enough to be more aware of the sense perceptions of the moment and to remember that part of the invitation was to recognize the reactions to reactions as “happenings.”
I didn’t get very far with that but did recognize the value of it and find a glimmer of hope in it.
(I mean the “good” kind of hope, for being able to be with reality as it is, not the “bad” kind of hope for reality to finally suit “me.” But that’s a slippery distinction, because I think I often turn the bad kind into the good kind, like “The universe will finally suit ‘me’ when I can be okay with everything as it is.” Ugh.)

And then there’s this, which I haven't yet gotten around to giving due consideration:

What if the whole business of needing help, getting help, wanting more help, and sometimes not getting help is simply more of THIS?

Maybe I’ll return to that tomorrow.

[whoknows]

P.S. Correction to the previous message:
I meant that I think I sometimes turn the GOOD kind of hope into the BAD kind.

[whoknows]

Re: your thoughts about the meeting:

You’re probably right that the idea of delving into old psychological stuff was received as yet another demand: something that must be done before awakening can happen. You said you’re interested in that reaction. OK, so, um . . . why is it interesting? Is there some helpful insight to be gained from that?

And, yes, when I was invited to feel the “No!” to further suffering, the inner temper tantrum was indeed saying something along the lines of, “I've had enough. I don't want any more demands, any more struggle, any more suffering.” Yep, writing that out, here comes the sobbing . . .

Found myself rapidly shaking my hands like a stereotyped autistic movement (a “stim”) that I’ve never done (I’m prone to the much more socially acceptable jiggling of my leg) or a little like fending off something that’s in front of me, like, “No! Stay away!!!”

Again, you’re encouraging me to notice and be curious about reactions and especially reactions to reactions.
The reaction to thinking about further suffering is a strongly felt and enacted “No!!!”
I’m not sure what the reaction to the reaction is in this case.

I’ve been more aware lately of the stories my mind gets caught up in when I’m waking up in the morning.
This morning, I thought of work I need to do for my class and, after a while, thought of some annoying computer chores I need to do very soon that are definitely experienced as demands: shifting to a new program for backing up my files in the cloud because the program I’ve been using is about to be phased out, and shifting to a new method of authenticating my identity for my university’s computer system because the method I’ve been using is about to be phased out. I have to do both of these things; I have to do them soon; and I am imagining that both will involve confusion and perhaps contacting tech support, and shifting to the new backup system will involve anxiety about losing files.

And the inner temper tantrum starts up again: I don’t want to do things I don’t want to do! I don’t want to be forced to do things, especially things that are difficult, time-consuming, or anxiety-provoking! I don’t want any more suffering! I want it to stop! I want awakening to make it stop! (Yeah, I know.) I don’t want psychological crap getting in the way of awakening! I don’t want to dig into old psychological crap! I especially don’t want to dig into old interpersonal crap! (I’ve had the thought a few times in the past several days that digging into primal fear of nonexistence seemed easier than some of the psychological stuff, though even while thinking that, I wasn’t sure I meant it. Maybe they’re just different. But it’s interesting that I even had that thought.)

And you talk about “expressions of conditioning that we can become curious about.”
I suppose.
But “I” want to know: Will that help to ease the suffering?!? Will it help me to wake up?

I’m glad you “especially don’t want this to become another job” for me and that I don’t need to go digging things up.
That sounded good.
But then you went on to say that “life will provide plenty of opportunities.”
And that inspires another temper tantrum, or maybe more like weary despair, since I’ve worn out some of the temper tantrum energy for the morning.

Regarding awakening, you said, “There’s . . . no psychological work you must complete first.”
Really?
Haven’t you been suggesting that some of my psychological crap is a barrier?

Haven’t watched the recording yet. I still might.
(I don’t experience it as a demand, just as an invitation to something that could be illuminating—or could prompt a good sob if I need one.)

[whoknows]

Wrote a long post and lost it. Ugh. Usually I write my posts in a separate document, but I was writing directly on the LU board and did something silly (maybe hit the “back” button or “reload”?). So you’re going to get a more concise version, which I suppose is just as well.

Last night, I watched the recording of the meeting—the second part focusing on K, right before I signed off, not the first part focusing on K at the start of the meeting. Cried some more, but not an intense, extended sob like yesterday morning. Was feeling sympathy for the K in the video and also feeling some of the same things again.

Watched more of the recording after I and then you had signed off (but still haven’t gotten to the end!). Got a little more insight into the value of seeing a temper tantrum all the way through.

(By the way, my reluctance to sob on camera truly wasn’t mainly due to feeling self-conscious in front of you all. Mostly, I felt self-conscious that my husband in the other room might hear me sobbing and/or I might end up with red eyes and a splotchy face, and I would need to say something about it, which I didn't want to. Also, I knew I needed to get off the call in five or ten minutes, so it didn’t feel like enough time for a proper sob and some recovery.)

Yesterday afternoon, evening, and night, I felt a bit lighter and clearer and more transparent than I have for a while—“transparent” meaning like what you described when you were asked if you felt like vince was a character or a blip (something like that). What you said reminded me of what I described recently about a sit where I settled into feeling like just a pile of sensory apparatus aiming to absorb as much sense data as possible with as little distortion and static as possible. During that sit and yesterday, there wasn’t so much fictional “me” in the way; it was more just the sensations.

[vinceschubert]

Hi K,

“More just the sensations.” That gives us something quite immediate to look at.

Before that, though, I want to acknowledge something. You were asking for help with suffering, and I kept inviting you to find it interesting. I can see how that felt like another demand when you were already weary. I’m sorry I missed that.

You asked whether I’ve been suggesting that psychological difficulties are a barrier to awakening. I can see that my words suggested that. There is no requirement to clear your history before looking at the sense of a separate self.
If you talk to somebody who's been in therapy for 20 years, they will tell you that there's no end to what can be found. Keep looking and keep finding...
If instead we acknowledge that there is stuff there then we will find that a lifetime of 'trauma' sits on a foundation of a few fundamental beliefs (about a self).
Another 'thing' to acknowledge is that we have a lifetime of social conditioning that says that this stuff has to be seen and understood before it lets go of influencing us.

Now, about that lighter, more transparent feeling.
It may be tempting to make this the condition that needs to stay. But let’s look gently at what you described:

“There wasn’t so much fictional ‘me’ in the way.”
When you say “fictional,” what did you actually notice? Were there fewer thoughts about yourself? Less tension? Less involvement in what the thoughts were saying?

Take one ordinary moment now. There are sensations, sounds, perhaps thoughts about reading this. When the word “me” appears, what does it refer to in that moment? Is a separate controller actually found, or is there a thought, accompanied perhaps by a familiar bodily feeling?

There’s no need to produce yesterday’s lightness to look.
And if resistance returns, we can meet the particular difficulty then. You don’t need to finish a sob, find a reaction beneath every reaction, or turn distress into an inquiry exercise.

For now, I’d like to hear a little more about “fictional.” What made that word fit your experience?