Clearly seeing through the illusion

[poppyseed]

Hey Thomas,
There’s one more thing worth making really clear around responsibility. Be careful not to imagine that there was a “Thomas” before who was genuinely carrying responsibility, and now that Thomas has somehow disappeared and life has to continue without him. The self didn't die, it simply never existed. Look closely.
Did a separate Thomas ever actually exist in the first place?
If not, then responsibility, care, planning, remembering, work, family life — all of that was already happening without a separate self running it.
Nothing has died. Nothing has been removed. Nothing has stopped functioning. The only thing being seen through is the thought-story that there was an independent entity in the middle of it all, making it happen.
So when thought says: “Who will be responsible now?”, look at the assumption hidden in that question.
Was there ever a separate “who” doing responsibility before?
Or was responding already happening exactly as it does now?
And even “before” and “after” are thought labels related to time.
(One clarification I forgot to mention is that we are not denying functional time. Clocks, calendars, appointments, plans, and ordinary language are useful. We can say: “I worked yesterday”, “The meeting is tomorrow”, “The train leaves at five.” That is functional time—practical communication and organisation. What we are examining is psychological time: the story that an actual past or future exists somewhere in experience, and that an “I”/”observer”/”awareness”/entity travels from one moment into another.)
Can an actual dividing line be found where there used to be a self and then suddenly there wasn’t one?
Or is it simply becoming clear that the self was never there at any point?
Check this in ordinary life today.
When something needs doing for your family or at work, look:
Does care still arise?
Does planning still happen?
Does action still happen?
Does responding still happen?
Is anything actually missing?
Or has only the ownership story become less convincing?
Look carefully and report what is found.
Here is a Buddhist saying for your contemplation:
“Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.”
Nothing changes, yet everything is different. The “body moves”, thoughts arise, “things get done”, but now the illusion of a separate “I” doing it collapses. That's all!

What else feels still sticky - responsibility is tightly connected to “others”, so check:
Others — family, boss, son, approval, conflict, being seen.
Space — here/there, inside/outside, body/world, distance.
Emotions — fear, guilt, shame, pride, hurt, irritation.
Awakening itself — “am I getting it?”, “will it last?”, “I need to go deeper.”
Body – body doing things, body parts, location of body parts
Love
Rali

[CommonTrap26]

Hello Rali,

Thank you for the response and pointers.

Did a separate Thomas ever actually exist in the first place?

No

Was there ever a separate “who” doing responsibility before?

No

Or was responding already happening exactly as it does now?

Responding was already happening.

Can an actual dividing line be found where there used to be a self and then suddenly there wasn’t one?

No such dividing line can be found

Or is it simply becoming clear that the self was never there at any point?

It is becoming clear that the self never was there

When something needs doing for your family or at work, look:
Does care still arise?

Yes

Does planning still happen?

Yes

Does action still happen?

Yes

Does responding still happen?

Yes

Is anything actually missing?

No

Or has only the ownership story become less convincing?

This is the case.

Look carefully and report what is found.

The actions and the care still happen as before, even without the Thomas story

What else feels still sticky

I still feel stickiness around the awakening itself. For the awakening itself I can definitely feel that I am experiencing much of life, if not all, without the illusion of separate self. However, Doubt thoughts do creep in and question if this has actually been seen through.

[poppyseed]

Hey Thomas,
Good. Let’s look directly at the doubt rather than trying to get rid of it or answer it.

I still feel stickiness around the awakening itself. For the awakening itself I can definitely feel that I am experiencing much of life, if not all, without the illusion of separate self. However, Doubt thoughts do creep in and question if this has actually been seen through.

When that thought “Maybe this hasn’t actually been seen” appears — what is it, in direct experience? Is it anything more than a thought?
Does the thought itself know whether awakening has happened?
Can the thought find a separate Thomas? Can the thought recreate one?
Look right now.
When doubt appears, does an actual self suddenly appear with it? Or is there simply a doubt thought, perhaps some sensation, and then more thought about what the doubt means? Is this doubt-thought even yours? What makes this doubt yours to fix?

And notice something else:
What exactly is the doubt expecting as proof? A permanent state? No more self-referential thoughts? No more fear? No more doubt? Some unmistakable feeling of being “awake”?
Look at those expectations carefully.
Are any of them actually required for the absence of a separate self to be seen? Are they even yours?
You have already looked and found: no thinker, no chooser, no controller, no owner of experience, no continuous Thomas through time.
When doubt says, “Yes, but maybe you haven’t REALLY seen it” — look again.
Is there a separate self now?
Don’t answer from yesterday’s inquiry. Look now.
Can one be found? If not, what exactly is the doubt referring to?
And one more subtle point:
Is there now a “Thomas who has awakened” who needs to maintain this seeing and make sure it doesn’t get lost? Or is that simply another version of the same ownership story?
There is no requirement for doubt to disappear. Doubt can appear. The question is only:
Does doubt point to an actual separate entity, or is doubt simply another happening with no owner? What is convinced? What is doubting?
Instead of trying to understand, look at the sensation/feeling that comes before the doubt. That feeling is being avoided by going into thinking and trying to understand this. Feel and sit with that feeling instead. Feel bad. Feel like a doer. Feel the trying to get it. Feel the confusion. And feel everything else that is beneath that. Stuff like despair, hopelessness, frustration, anger, etc.
Is there someone there actually doubting, or.... doubting is just happening on its own, without a person, Thomas being doubtful?
Is there anything else to doubt than just a thought saying "I'm not sure... I doubt this and that"?
Keep looking until it's settled beyond any possible doubt.

Check!
What is it that could be awake?
What is it that awakening could happen TO?
Is there someone separate form THIS, waiting to wake up to reality?
What is that entity that is outside of THIS, and is still confused or doubtful, or not being clear about THIS
Is there someone who needs to let go of identity thoughts?
Or letting go happens on its own effortlessly, when the futility of trying to grasp what is with thoughts is recognized?

Just a note…There might still be expectations, confusion, and doubt. That’s quite normal at this stage. You may be swaying between “I get it” and “I don’t get it.” You may be thinking that this is not enough, that some experiences need to happen, that you should be happy and blissful all the time. When these thoughts arise, bring the focus to what is present here now. Just THIS. And look again: what is here that wants THIS to be different (including the presence of doubt-thoughts)

Seeing probably won't be 24/7. There's likely to be a "honeymoon period," and then what we call, "got it, lost it," as untrue beliefs come up to be questioned. This can go on for months & years. This initial shift is irreversible, just as we can never go back to believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. We can still use first-person pronouns to describe “ourselves” with the same ease we always had, even if such ideas have no more actual meaning than talking about Santa Claus once we learn “he” doesn’t exist either. The separate “self” is seen to have been nothing more than inference and interpretation. We then see how the truth has been right under our nose all along: there’s simply nobody (t)here! Because there never was a “self” in the first place, no longer believing that we have or are a separate “self” is not a destructive or negative experience: there is no ‘self’ that died, and there is no new ‘self’ that takes its place.
As a result of getting this first irreversible understanding of who we are(n’t), there is an initial cleansing of wrong views, and an illumination of what is (and is not) happening within and around us. Though this illumination is of a preliminary nature, it nevertheless constitutes a significant re-ordering of how we perceive ourselves and our place in the world.
Watch this, please:
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

Expectations are one of the most frequent blocks to seeing what ‘reality’ actually is. We can blame Guru stories and the attraction to drama in our society for focusing on stories of the initial epiphany that people have as they wake up (because some have a ‘wow’ factor). This puts into our head, the idea of “bells and whistles”. We expect high drama to confirm that a significant shift has occurred. For a lot of people it happens quietly and gradually, as believes come one by one to be seen through. It make take days, months or years and it very much depends on the acquired conditioning. As I warned you in the beginning of the inquiry:

I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary.

Some common misconceptions:
That I will experience permanent bliss.
That I will never get sick again.
That I will be able to stop my thoughts.
Money problems will be a thing of the past.
I will be able to manifest prosperity.
I will never hurt others again
I will never develop dementia
If I have kids, I’ll be the perfect parent
I will be physically beautiful
I will never have any more interpersonal conflicts
I will never again get angry
I will never be hurt
I will be loved (approval of others)
I will always know what to do (control)
I will always feel good (control feelings / bliss)
:)))
Love
Rali

[CommonTrap26]

Thanks Rali,

This made it very clear. The doubts I have felt were popping up as things are reorienting. Each time it has been seen to be a thought and nothing more.

When that thought “Maybe this hasn’t actually been seen” appears — what is it, in direct experience?

Just a thought

Is it anything more than a thought?

No

Does the thought itself know whether awakening has happened?

No it does not

Can the thought find a separate Thomas?

No

Can the thought recreate one?

No

When doubt appears, does an actual self suddenly appear with it?

No

Or is there simply a doubt thought, perhaps some sensation, and then more thought about what the doubt means?

This is the case

Is this doubt-thought even yours?

No

What makes this doubt yours to fix?

This is a good point.

And notice something else:
What exactly is the doubt expecting as proof?

I do not think any amount of proof would stop the doubt

A permanent state?

No

No more self-referential thoughts?

No

No more fear?

No

No more doubt?

No

Some unmistakable feeling of being “awake”?

No

Look at those expectations carefully.
Are any of them actually required for the absence of a separate self to be seen?

No none of these are required

Are they even yours?

No

When doubt says, “Yes, but maybe you haven’t REALLY seen it” — look again.
Is there a separate self now?

No separate self

Don’t answer from yesterday’s inquiry. Look now.
Can one be found?

No

If not, what exactly is the doubt referring to?

Nothing, it is just doubt doubting.

And one more subtle point:
Is there now a “Thomas who has awakened” who needs to maintain this seeing and make sure it doesn’t get lost?

No

Or is that simply another version of the same ownership story?

Correct

Does doubt point to an actual separate entity, or is doubt simply another happening with no owner?

This is the case. Another happening with no owner.

What is convinced?

Nothing is convinced.

What is doubting?

Doubting is happening on its own.

Is there someone there actually doubting, or.... doubting is just happening on its own, without a person, Thomas being doubtful?

Doubting is happening on its own

Is there anything else to doubt than just a thought saying "I'm not sure... I doubt this and that"?

It is just a thought

What is it that could be awake?

Just THIS

What is it that awakening could happen TO?

Just THIS

Is there someone separate form THIS, waiting to wake up to reality?

No

What is that entity that is outside of THIS, and is still confused or doubtful, or not being clear about THIS

Nothing

Is there someone who needs to let go of identity thoughts?

No

Or letting go happens on its own effortlessly, when the futility of trying to grasp what is with thoughts is recognized?

This is the correct case.

[poppyseed]

Hey Thomas,
Good. This is very clear.
When you say:

What is it that could be awake?

Just THIS

What is it that awakening could happen TO?

Just THIS

I take you to mean simply whatever is happening. So let’s keep it that simple.
Does awakening actually happen to whatever is happening?
Or is “awakening” just a label for the recognition that there was never a separate entity here who needed to wake up?
It has simply become obvious that thoughts, sensations, actions, doubt, care, planning and responding were always happening without a separate owner or controller…?
Nothing new has appeared. Nothing real has disappeared. The story of a separate self is simply no longer being taken in the same way.
So look freshly now:
Is there a separate entity — self, me, I — anywhere at all, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
So let's review where we are at with the following questions.
What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Love
Rali

[CommonTrap26]

Thanks Rali,

I appreciate all of your guidance and help with seeing this clearly.

Does awakening actually happen to whatever is happening?

No, awakening does not happen to whatever is happening

Or is “awakening” just a label for the recognition that there was never a separate entity here who needed to wake up?

This is the case

It has simply become obvious that thoughts, sensations, actions, doubt, care, planning and responding were always happening without a separate owner or controller…?

Correct, no separate owner

Is there a separate entity — self, me, I — anywhere at all, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No there is not and never has been

What changes?

Perspective changes

What stays the same?

All normal activity and life

What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

It has been seen that there is not and never was an individual self or self story

Is seeking still going on?

No, seeking has stopped. Now it is just seeing through false beliefs and thought patterns as they come up.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

No, you have been wonderfully helpful in this process.

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

YES!

[poppyseed]

Hey Thomas
Beautiful. Let’s finish with the standard checkpoint questions. These questions are given everyone to see where they are at, and to see if we’ve missed anything in our inquiry.
Here are the questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Please provide examples where asked.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please take your time with these and answer each one individually using the quote function. Just describe what is actually seen now.
Love
Rali

[CommonTrap26]

Hey Rali,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is not and never was a separate self, me or I at all. There never has been a separate self.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

In my experience the illusion of the separate self is a label thought placing ownership on actions and memory thoughts. It’s starts when the mind begins to objectify/label experience. The separate self is the label given to the perceived observer of objects and continuity of memory thoughts. It is now seen that the separate self is just a thought label and there is no observer of objects. There are no objects or separations.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels freeing and a relief to see through the limitations of the separate self. Before starting the dialogue I was searching for something that would help the self find peace and general okeyness with life. In the past few days it has become clear that the self was never there and any attempt to find peace through it was not possible. Once seen through it is obvious that seeking outwardly for ideas or knowledge cannot bring peace to a none existent self. There is peace in knowing that you are not a separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

After days of consistent looking using direct experience I found there was no separate self to be found. This seemed fairly clear and the more I looked the more it felt odd that I had believed in the separate self in the first place. After a couple of days I had a day with difficult circumstances with people close to me. I found myself with a lot of emotions centering around self referencing thought patterns and beliefs regarding past experiences. I was caught up in the thoughts and emotions for a time but eventually I realized the thoughts and the beliefs that were at play. Once I was able to look at the situation directly it changed completely. It was still a difficult situation but it no longer had the weight of a lifetime of false beliefs and spiraling thought patterns. It just was as it was happening. This was the final push over the edge. I had seen through the separate self in action and could not be fooled for long.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decisions are made naturally as they come up. When a decision is needed then the options are reviewed and the decision made. When selecting a place for lunch today: looked at the options locally. Once the list of options was reviewed a restaurant was chosen and action began to go to lunch. No separate self involved in the process.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention is a thought regarding a future action. Example: thought- I intend to wash the dishes after dinner. This is just a thought based on believed control. The dish still may or may not get washed even with the intention thought.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Free will is an ownership thought that the illusion of separate self uses to establish perceived control over decisions. This morning while picking out clothes for the day, it could have been believed that free will was used in picking the clothing. This of course is not the case. There was a limited number of options based on the weather, what was clean at the time and preferences. The decision was made and action took place but free will/separate self were not involved.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Choices are made naturally in the moment. When reaching for something to take a note I do not engage in thought to choose between a pen or pencil. I reach for something to write with and go with the choice that is made without thought input.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control is a pattern of thoughts labeling ownership of decisions and outcomes to the separate self/controller. An example is when it is believed that the separate self controls thoughts. This is seen to not be the case once looked at through DE.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

In the ultimate sense I do not KNOW what makes things happen. THIS is the happening.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I am not responsible. Life happens, decisions are made and actions take place all without independent input from a separate self.

6) Anything to add?

After this illusion was seen through it was surprising how evident/obvious false beliefs and general resistance to happenings became.