realizing selflessness

[whoknows]

Happy birthday, vince!

[whoknows]

“The explanation Tess didn’t need” hit home in an uncomfortable way.

My husband long ago made it clear how much it bothers him how I get defensive when criticized, but I’ve never entirely understood why that’s so upsetting to him. These days, I can usually see when I’m doing it, sometimes while I’m in the middle of doing it, and sometimes I squelch the urge to to explain why I said or did something or how he seems to have misunderstood something. But that often feels unfair, like I’m supposed to just let him hang on to what seems like a mischaracterization of what happened.

A small example of this happened just last night, where I felt defensive and wanted to explain myself. As a bonus, in this case, when I started up and he started getting upset about it, he said he hadn’t actually been criticizing, just explaining why he’d reacted in a way that might have seemed odd to me. I challenged him on whether it was true that there was no criticism, and he genuinely thought there probably wasn’t, and he’s pretty good at that kind of introspection and honesty, though I still can’t help feeling a little like I was criticized.

I’m gonna reread that story and read the investigation, which I didn’t get very far into before going to sleep last night. I do not feel eager to do this, but it seems worthwhile.

My mood is probably crappy like it was yesterday, but I won’t really know until I try to get some work or chores done or maybe until I try to do this investigation. (Woke up about an hour ago. Still sitting in bed.)

[whoknows]

Hesitant to post yet again, but, well, here I go:

Mood less crappy than yesterday. Got some work done with less resistance and a clearer mind. Need to not be so hard on myself when I’m having a particularly hard time, and need to recognize that it will pass. I think I’m still in the habit of feeling like that state of mind might last forever (since I've been like this for quite a lot of the time for many decades) and that, therefore, I have to figure out how to bully myself or trick myself into getting stuff done.

Also, my concerns about what to do with my time were very probably amplified by this mood.

* * * * *

While getting ready to leave the house this morning, I mentioned your story to my husband. He’s pleased that maybe I’ll really be able to hear this if it comes from someone other than him. And I learned that he usually feels like he’s not criticizing me but just wanting to deal with an issue. I admit that I’m not entirely sure I believe that, but it might be true, and I’m willing to consider it. And he has promised again to be as honest as he can about it when these things happen.

[vinceschubert]

Hesitant to post yet again

Don't hesitate. The more the better...

Happy birthday, vince!

Thank you (really)

when I’m having a particularly hard time,

These are potentially really productive experiences.

I get defensive when criticized,

This is wonder full. It is identifying big time. Hubby's response adds to the value, but needs to be seen as separate to your primary reaction.
Look forward to the next opportunity to examine this. You might be able to 'take it to the lab' by remembering what it was that you reacted to, but it's more 'potent' when it is actually happening.
What are the sensations of protection? Of ownership? What does it feel like to be seen in that way?

more later

v

[whoknows]

Don't hesitate. The more the better...

OK, if you say so . . . :-)

Afternoon and evening meditation periods:
Played around with this: What if I thought I was awake?
(Of course, then I probably wouldn’t think of it quite like “I am awake” but more like “It’s clear that the awakeness has always been here.” Something like that?)
But anyway, what if a notable shift had happened, say, last week?
And here I am in the chapel, as usual, for a sit.
What would it be like?
- There would presumably be almost no urge to DO anything, since all the DOing during meditation was largely about waking up.
- I could just sit here appreciating the wonder and mystery of consciousness and of the specific perceptions arising.
- There would probably be less fear of my own mind, since whatever thoughts arose would, I’m imagining, more often be quickly seen as thoughts and would not have a chance to sprout much suffering.
I was able to kind of enter into the above, but not so much into this one:
- Although there might still be a sense of self a lot of the time, I imagine that perhaps sometimes I could just take a quick glance to get a felt sense that the control tower has never been staffed and never needed to be staffed and that there’s just sunlight pouring through.
I did have a second or two of a feeling like my head was a little bit transparent, so that was entertaining.

Re: getting defensive when criticized:

Look forward to the next opportunity to examine this.

Surprisingly, I almost do.

What are the sensations of protection? Of ownership? What does it feel like to be seen in that way?

Will try to notice.

[vinceschubert]

though I still can’t help feeling a little like I was criticized.

Ok, being awake isn't about this stuff (or anything) not turning up. It's what happens when it does. What the reaction/response to it is.
It's reasonable to expect that anything that hasn't been examined/accepted will turn up if it gets triggered.
Remember that all experience (including trauma) impacts us as it happens and so remains as potential until it is triggered (by circumstances)
The stuff we have learned about protecting the imagined self (and let me be specific here: the inherently independent, autonomous self. The one running the show) This stuff remains until it is seen as unnecessary/innapropriate.
There are exceptions to this and that is where trauma has hardwired reactions into the nervous system.
Under these circumstances, we might need to keep reframing the description of the response until the nervous system adjusts.

What if I thought I was awake?
(Of course, then I probably wouldn’t think of it quite like “I am awake” but more like “It’s clear that the awakeness has always been here.” Something like that?)

You might think "i am awake" in the beginning (then probably laugh) but over time the novelty will wear off even to the point where it doesn't occur to you at all.

There would presumably be almost no urge to DO anything,

That might occur (especially if it had been habituated) but again the seeing of it will most likely defuse it.

I could just sit here appreciating the wonder and mystery of consciousness and of the specific perceptions arising.

This is very likely as that is what happens in direct experiencing.

There would probably be less fear of my own mind, since whatever thoughts arose would, I’m imagining, more often be quickly seen as thoughts and would not have a chance to sprout much suffering.

Yes

I was able to kind of enter into the above

Good, although to be pedantic did you intentionally "enter into it" of did it just (seem to) happen?

but not so much into this one:
- Although there might still be a sense of self a lot of the time, I imagine that perhaps sometimes I could just take a quick glance to get a felt sense that the control tower has never been staffed and never needed to be staffed and that there’s just sunlight pouring through.

Again that will change with experience. There is the "felt sense" and there is the story. The felt bit will become normal and the story will not happen. It may be that the story will have narration in the beginning and then be contained inside the heading "control tower" then as it becomes normal it won't even occur.

Look forward to the next opportunity to examine this.

Surprisingly, I almost do.

That's very awake of you (grin)

What are the sensations of protection? Of ownership? What does it feel like to be seen in that way?

Will try to notice.

No trying necessary. It will happen or not. (but good intention - that happened)

v

[whoknows]

Re: K's experiments with “awake” experiencing:

I was able to kind of enter into the above

Good, although to be pedantic did you intentionally “enter into it” of did it just (seem to) happen?

Well, let’s see . . . What actually happened was that the idea arose to imagine what my meditation time would feel like if I were awake. Various proposals arose about aspects of that: a reduced impulse to DO things in meditation, appreciating simply being aware of consciousness and perception, being less afraid of the productions of my own mind, and being able to access a felt sense of there being no self. In each case, the idea was accompanied by experimenting with feeling or experiencing that way. And in each case except the last one (about no-self), that experiment was somewhat successful, i.e., the imagined “awake” way of experiencing was actually experienced to some degree. Well, and in the last case, there was a moment of feeling like my head was sort of transparent, which wasn’t taken very seriously as indicative of anything important, though admittedly some attempts were made to reproduce it.

If we grant that we can still talk about “intention” within a no-self framework, looking only at direct experience, then there was indeed intention about “entering into” the proposed ways of experiencing, in the sense that the whole experiment was initiated by thoughts of wanting to explore what an “awake” meditation experience might feel like, and then the rest followed.

If your question about whether I intentionally “entered into” the imagined states means “Can a separate controller be found who had this intention?” and/or “Can a K be found who was the one entering into these states?” the answer is, of course, no. There’s still no watermelon in the fridge. (Interestingly, this little investigation did not prompt a weary sigh.)

And, yes, I noticed that the “success” of several of these experiments suggests that, in some ways, an “awake” way of experiencing is not different in kind from current experiencing but is, perhaps, more a matter of greater clarity or consistency of that way of experiencing or ease of returning to it—something like that?

[whoknows]

On noticing defensive reactions to correction or criticism:

What are the sensations of protection? Of ownership? What does it feel like to be seen in that way?

Will try to notice.

No trying necessary. It will happen or not. (but good intention - that happened)

Hmm. From the no-self perspective, yes, everything will happen or not, and “trying” is just a way of describing thoughts that arise of wanting for something to happen and then expending effort toward that end. And that desire and those efforts might be part of the chain of cause and effect that leads to the desired thing happening.

But it doesn’t seem like the fact that things just happen or don’t happen based on prior conditions is a reason not to “try” to make things happen, in the conventional sense.

So I’m wondering which perspective you're employing here. Are you saying, in a conventional sense, that it's unnecessary to try to do this (with perhaps the implication that it's best not to try)? If so, would you say that to anyone, or is this caution especially for K, maybe because of how she’s apt to unhelpfully turn everything into a practice?

If you’re just noting that from the absolute/no-self perspective everything happens as a a result of prior conditions, well, okay, but I’m not sure how that's relevant to ordinary deliberations about whether to try to do something or not.

[whoknows]

Afternoon sit and afterward:
Have been noticing that what is seen, what is heard, and what is felt don’t feel like they’re produced or controlled by “me.”
They just appear.
It is evident that, likewise, thoughts are not produced or controlled by “me.”
They also just appear.
But thoughts feel more like they’re produced or controlled by “me” or like they are “me.”
Sense perceptions feel less “me”-like.
Have been trying to get more of a direct sense that thoughts simply appear, just as sense perceptions do, and that thoughts also do not constitute “me.”

[vinceschubert]

But thoughts feel more like they’re produced or controlled by “me”

So what!

Have been trying to get more of a direct sense that thoughts simply appear

Isn't it obvious?
But "just appear" is shorthand for saying that conditions trigger them. Something you hear, see, smell etc. ..or anither thought. Surely you 'see' that you don't have contgrol of them. Tell mey why you are now thinking of a pink elephant?

But it doesn’t seem like the fact that things just happen or don’t happen based on prior conditions is a reason not to “try” to make things happen, in the conventional sense.

Of course. Intentions appear and trying happens. So what? (that's 2 so far)

that it's best not to try)? If so, would you say that to anyone, or is this caution especially for K, maybe because of how she’s apt to unhelpfully turn everything into a practice?

Are you past the point where trying produces the illusion of a self doing it?
is a "practice" a DOing with the promise of an outcome that proves that you have control?

If you’re just noting that from the absolute/no-self perspective everything happens as a a result of prior conditions, well, okay, but I’m not sure how that's relevant to ordinary deliberations about whether to try to do something or not.

see above.

then there was indeed intention about “entering into” the proposed ways of experiencing, in the sense that the whole experiment was initiated by thoughts of wanting to explore what an “awake” meditation experience might feel like, and then the rest followed.

Great. Where did the idea come from to do that?

an “awake” way of experiencing

now that you have experienced this, take a step back and consider how you feel about it. This is where the 'rubber hits the road'.

love

v

[whoknows]

Response to your latest post (part 1):

But thoughts feel more like they’re produced or controlled by “me”

So what!

Have been trying to get more of a direct sense that thoughts simply appear

Isn't it obvious?
But "just appear" is shorthand for saying that conditions trigger them. Something you hear, see, smell etc. ..or anither thought. Surely you 'see' that you don't have contgrol of them. Tell mey why you are now thinking of a pink elephant?

At this point, it is relatively clear cognitively that thoughts just appear, but it is not obvious in the same immediate, felt way in which it's obvious that what I see and hear just appears. My idea was that it might be helpful to have more of a felt sense of how thoughts simply appear.
[But I see, after having gotten further along in responding to your message, that this might be another instance where “trying” to do something like that is actually counterproductive for me?]

But it doesn’t seem like the fact that things just happen or don’t happen based on prior conditions is a reason not to “try” to make things happen, in the conventional sense.

Of course. Intentions appear and trying happens. So what?

So I wanted to figure out—and I still haven't figured out—whether you're telling me that it would be pointless or problematic in the conventional sense, to try to notice how I react to correction—that is, to set up conditions to make it more likely that I'll notice it by, say, rereading your story and investigation a couple more times, or writing "Yes, but" on my hand so I'll remember that it's a thing to look out for, or talking to my husband about it to see if he has any insight into how it tends to manifest in me—that sort of thing. Is that pointless, for some reason, or even counterproductive?

(That was an attempt to clarify my question, but maybe you already understood what I was asking, and now I'm wondering if I’m going to get the same sort of answer again and be frustrated again by what strikes me as some sort of Zennie rhetorical conflation of absolute and relative. But I thought it was worth a shot.)

[I might’ve sorted this out below, and I think the answer is that, in this case, “trying” is counterproductive, but I thought I’d leave the above two paragraphs here in order to “show my work.” I probably should’ve digested your whole message before starting to respond bit by bit.]

that it's best not to try)? If so, would you say that to anyone, or is this caution especially for K, maybe because of how she’s apt to unhelpfully turn everything into a practice?

Are you past the point where trying produces the illusion of a self doing it?
is a "practice" a DOing with the promise of an outcome that proves that you have control?

As far as I can tell, I am certainly not past the point where trying produces the illusion of a self doing it (at least a lot of the time or even most of the time).
And, yes, when I approach things as a “practice”—i.e., something done intentionally and repeatedly—there is often (though maybe less often than there used to be?) a sense that “I” am DOing something in order to attain an end.
Just a moment’s introspection tells me that if I make a “practice” of noticing how I react to correction, yep, I’m doing it in order to attain the end of reacting less defensively (which seems like a “better” way to be and which will cause less irritation to my spouse).

I’d saved this from “The explanation Tess doesn’t need”:

Now compare four movements.
Before:
“I must defend who I am.”
Seeking:
“I must fix the part of me that gets defensive.”
Soon after seeing:
“How can defensiveness still happen?”
Integration:
“Defensiveness happened. What response is useful?”
Which is happening here?
Don’t turn these into stages.
They can all appear in one afternoon.

I’m definitely apt to approach this in “seeking” mode: trying to "fix" myself.
I would, naturally, prefer to approach it in "integration” mode, but I can see that trying to do so would probably be a manifestation of seeking mode or at least could easily drift into seeking mode.

[whoknows]

Afternoon sit:

Started with “Do nothing” / “Stay out of the way.”
Then was playing with giving that a flavor of “already awake,” which seems like it enhances the sense of nothing to do and also lends a flavor of enjoyment of what is.
But then that quicky morphed into something I was playing with last night, which is what Angelo calls “unbound consciousness.”
I’m not sure I’ve figured out exactly what he means, but what I've picked up is that it means not being caught up in thoughts and also having a sense of being aware of being aware.

I like this. It feels good right now.
And the mind can often settle into this fairly easily, during meditation and at other times too—with, of course, bouts of getting caught up in thought.
This sense of “unbound consciousness” goes with the sense that simply being aware of sense perceptions is the natural equilibrium state, while continuing to think takes energy and effort.
And it goes with my realization that in trying to attend to sense perceptions, I’ve had a tendency to narrow or focus my attention in some way, but that’s not necessary. Attending to sense perceptions can just be simple, open, effortless awareness—what's always here but seems like it gets clouded over by getting caught up in thoughts.

[whoknows]

Response to your latest post (part 2):

then there was indeed intention about “entering into” the proposed ways of experiencing, in the sense that the whole experiment was initiated by thoughts of wanting to explore what an “awake” meditation experience might feel like, and then the rest followed.

Great. Where did the idea come from to do that?

Who knows? That is, as with all thoughts, one can make some reasonable speculations about some of the causes and conditions that gave rise to it, but it’s impossible to know everything that contributed to having a particular thought arise at a particular time.
(As noted earlier, I feel clear on this cognitively, but it still feels a lot of the time like “I” am thinking a thought—i.e., that there’s an “I” who had some control over it.)

an “awake” way of experiencing

now that you have experienced this, take a step back and consider how you feel about it. This is where the 'rubber hits the road'.

Hmm . . .
You mean, consider how I feel about that way of experiencing?
Well, I like it.
It feels good to feel less like I need to DO anything in meditation, to feel a little more appreciation of simply being aware of consciousness and perception, and to be less afraid of the productions of my own mind.
I’d like to experience all of that more fully and more consistently (and this sentence seems more laden with “self” than the previous sentence did).

I feel like I might be missing the significance or implications of the question and my answer.