Hoping to find relief

[vistascan]

Can you find anything to name or identify that is truly yourself, that is constant and invariable that stands apart from all other appearances?

Not in DE. Like the apple example, the assumption of a separate self arises together with and in the experience.

Please share only your immediate experience when you say or read those words,
1. take note of any thoughts that are emotionally charged, even if you think they might be irrational, and
2. Allow yourself to fully experience any sensations that are noticed in the body. Look for any contractions in head, heart or gut.

Please keep to your direct experience and stay away from discussing thoughts or philosophical ideas about a separate self which is all CE.

1. The thoughts and feelings are the ones I mentioned before. Fear, grief, anger. The mind brings up lost of charged thoughts and emotions to stop the inquiry.

2. I notice a contraction in my belly, from my belly button to my solar plexus. I also noticed a brief spell of vertigo and nausea.

[Noro]

Hello Vistascan,

Can you find anything to name or identify that is truly yourself, that is constant and invariable that stands apart from all other appearances?

Not in DE. Like the apple example, the assumption of a separate self arises together with and in the experience.

This question referred to your direct experience, therefore a Yes/No answer was all that was required. The follow on explanation was CE. I hope this is clear.

1. The thoughts and feelings are the ones I mentioned before. Fear, grief, anger. The mind brings up lost of charged thoughts and emotions to stop the inquiry.

The emotions of Fear, Grief and Anger are labels. They are not the FEELINGS (BODY SENSATIONS) themselves. What needs to be felt are the raw sensations in the body which are surfacing. Generally these emotions are layered, one covers another.

2. I notice a contraction in my belly, from my belly button to my solar plexus. I also noticed a brief spell of vertigo and nausea.

Good noticing. Please keep working with the phrase and become really attentive to what is arising in the body. Watch the movement of the contractions and allow what ever is arising to be there. See if you can trace which emotion is present and allow it to be there. Emotion = Energy in Motion.

Please let me know what you notice.


HEARING INVESTIGATION

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Or, you can play some music. Allow yourself to relax and open to the whole 'sound field'. You are not just hearing with your ears but with your whole being.

In your direct experience:

Where does it feel that the sound is?

Where does it feel that "I" am?

Can any boundary that can be found anywhere between what seems to be hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'sounds arising'?

Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

Can location or distance be known from simply hearing?

An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can any of these be found doing hearing?

Can a hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

Now ask: What is the difference in experience between listening and hearing?
What happens to the quality of hearing when you ask this question?
Does attention shift from hearing to the thought space?

Notice any sensations that arise in the body with this question.
Be fully with the sensations in the body, let go of any thoughts
Allow yourself once again to become absorbed in the sounds.

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?
Could anything that is suggested as a hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
What never comes/goes/or changes?

What do you find?

Warm regards,
Rowena

[vistascan]

Hello. I was ill for a few days so I'm catching up now.

Where does it feel that the sound is?

Out there.

Where does it feel that "I" am?

In the head somewhere.

Can any boundary that can be found anywhere between what seems to be hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?

If I stick to only the experience of hearing, there is no boundary.

Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

No, the hearer is thought or feeling based.

Can location or distance be known from simply hearing?

No

An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can any of these be found doing hearing?

No

Can a hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

From hearing alone, no.

What is the difference in experience between listening and hearing?
What happens to the quality of hearing when you ask this question?
Does attention shift from hearing to the thought space?

It is a difference of concentration and focus, sort of like leaning forward vs leaning back.
The sensation is one of contraction in the head. It is the same sensation when I'm focusing on a math problem. The attention sort of focuses around the ears.

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?
Could anything that is suggested as a hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

No. But the hearer seems to be more than an idea or a concept. There also seems to be a sort of sensation of being the hearer, something in the body.

What never comes/goes/or changes?

I cannot find anything like that. Everything changes.

[Noro]

Hello Vistascan,

I am glad you are feeling better now,

HEARING INVESTIGATION:

Where does it feel that the sounds are?

Out there.

Where does it feel that "I" am?

In the head somewhere.

Can any boundary that can be found anywhere between what seems to be hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?

If I stick to only the experience of hearing, there is no boundary.

So as you follow the progression of the questions above:
In direct experience, without thoughts, is there an in here or an out there that can be found separate from the sound field? Yes / No?

Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

No, the hearer is thought or feeling based.

Look again, you mention feeling based which is body sensation. Without thought or labels, does a sensation point to anything at all?


SOUND AND VISUAL FIELDS COMBINED - AS A MEDITATION WITH EYES OPEN

Allow yourself to relax and open to the whole 'sound field'.
In your direct experience:

Where does it feel that the sound is?
Where does it feel that "I" am?

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?
In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'sounds arising'?
Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?
Without the content of thought can a location or distance be known from simply hearing?
Can an independent hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

Where does it feel that "you" are?
If the answer is "here", How is this "known"
Is there a boundary to "you"?

Also include any sensations in the body that might arise. Allow them to be present without interpreting them.

Now do the same with the Visual Field.
Sit quietly and look at the visual field. Find an object to focus on.
ask the question:

Where does it feel that is?
Where does it feel that "I" am?
If the answer is "here", How is this "known"
Where is here?
What (in DE) is here? (Without thought content overlay on the visual field).

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between an apparent see-er and what is seen, or is there only 'seeing'?
In the visual field can anything be found other than 'seeing''?

Without the content of thought, can any location or distance be found from simply seeing?
Can an independent see-er be found separate from seeing'?

Also include any sensations in the body that might arise. Allow them to be present without interpreting them.

ALTERNATE VISUAL AND HEARING FIELDS AND INCLUDE BODY SENSATIONS
Spend a few minutes with your attention fully in the visual field and then switch attention to the hearing field.
Now allow your attention to flow as it will between the two fields.

Without the content of thought, where are you?
If the answer is "here", How is this "known"
Can a boundary be found to separate "you" from what is appearing ?
Without thought, in direct experience, can an actual boundary be found between seeing, hearing and body sensations?

Please give a short description of how this landed with you.


Warm regards,
Rowena

[vistascan]

In direct experience, without thoughts, is there an in here or an out there that can be found separate from the sound field? Yes / No?

No

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Look again, you mention feeling based which is body sensation. Without thought or labels, does a sensation point to anything at all?

No

Where does it feel that the sound is?

Nowhere in particular.

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Where does it feel that "I" am?

I don't know.

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Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?

There is only hearing.

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In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'sounds arising'?

No. The two are the same thing.

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Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

There is only hearing.

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Without the content of thought can a location or distance be known from simply hearing?

No

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Can an independent hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

No. Hearing seems to be self sufficient.

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Where does it feel that "you" are?

I don't know.

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If the answer is "here", How is this "known"

Through thought.

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Is there a boundary to "you"?

Only in thought.

Where does it feel that is?

In front of me.

Where does it feel that "I" am?

Here

If the answer is "here", How is this "known"

Through thought

Where is here?

Behind the eyes.

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What (in DE) is here? (Without thought content overlay on the visual field).

A sensation.

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Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between an apparent see-er and what is seen, or is there only 'seeing'?

No

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In the visual field can anything be found other than 'seeing''?

No

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Without the content of thought, can any location or distance be found from simply seeing?

I'm not sure, it's very subtle. Distance seems to be baked into the visual perception itself. Not distance between the 'seer' and the 'seen' but between objects in the visual field itself.

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Can an independent see-er be found separate from seeing'?

No

Without the content of thought, where are you?

I don't know

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Can a boundary be found to separate "you" from what is appearing ?

Only in thought.

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Without thought, in direct experience, can an actual boundary be found between seeing, hearing and body sensations?

No

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Please give a short description of how this landed with you.

I've had occasional seconds of seeing the visual field as a unified whole, almost like a bubble of seeing. But this caused immediate fear sensations, in my belly and heart, and my mind worked to bring me back to 'normal'.

[Noro]

Hello Vistascan,

Please give a short description of how this landed with you.

I've had occasional seconds of seeing the visual field as a unified whole, almost like a bubble of seeing. But this caused immediate fear sensations, in my belly and heart, and my mind worked to bring me back to 'normal'.

This last exercise, with the visual field is extremely powerful and it is not unusual to have sensations of fear. My take here is that when we were young we learned that we were a subject looking out at objects over there and we created a subtle energetic filter to keep our distance in order to keep safe. An energetic boundary if you will. That's just my story, but it might resonate with you. If it does, when you start to take in the whole visual field you touch that 'energetic boundary' and it brings up the sensations. When those sensations arise see if you can allow them to be there, bit by bit, taking your time as if gently easing your body into cold water. If you are sitting comfortably and focus just on the visual field and body sensations you will find that you can stay out of thought for a while.

In your direct experience, if you let go of the label "fear" can you allow yourself to fully BE with the sensations without diverting into thought?


LABEL- REALITY CORRELATION: GREEN-RED

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with reality, (i.e. direct experience). But they don't necessarily. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label GREEN, what is the actual experience?
Is the color red experienced, or is the color green experienced as the label suggests?

Does the label GREEN have a one-to-one correspondence with what is seen?
Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is the word "green" associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label GREEN is replaced with the label GOOD or BAD, is the 'redness' affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’? Do the labels have an actual effect on direct experience of what is seen?

Let me know what is actually SEEN?


Warm regards,
Rowena

PS: The QUOTE function is up at the top of where you write, you do not have to go to "Select All", you only have to swipe through the question and then press "QUOTE" and it should work fine. Please check your reply by pressing "Preview" before Submitting as it really is helpful to have this working well. Thanks.

[vistascan]

In your direct experience, if you let go of the label "fear" can you allow yourself to fully BE with the sensations without diverting into thought?

This is hard for me to say, as the fear sensation comes without warning and I cannot reliably bring it up or make it stay long enough for me to detach from the label. If that happens, I'll let you know what I experience.

Is the color red experienced, or is the color green experienced as the label suggesOr does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is the word "green" associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label GREEN is replaced with the label GOOD or BAD, is the 'redness' affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’? Do the labels have an actual effect on direct experience of what is seen?

Yes, it is clear that the word or the label does not have any actual effect on the thing itself. The attachment between the two is habitual but it is fairly easy to see that there is a difference between the sense data and what the mind adds to it.

[Noro]

Hello VIstascan,


CUP EXERCISE - TWO TYPES OF THOUGHTS - Direct Interpretation and Visualization

1. LOOKING AT AN OBJECT (CUP)
Wherever you are sitting right now, look for an object to focus on.
Don't pick the object up or turn it around, just look at what can be seen without touching it or turning it.

Now look at it, what you see in direct experience?

Give yourself a bit of time with it, Just look, nothing else.
Now consider the back side of that object.

Can it be known what the back side looks like?
If so, what tells what it looks like?
Can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?
Can this be known in direct experience?
Can an object be known at all?



2. VISUALIZING AN OBJECT (CUP)

Remove the object from your direct view and close your eyes.

Think of a cup, get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. 
Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp or touch that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?
Is there a "real' cup or just an image of a cup?
Is the imagined content of the mental image (the cup) 'real'?

Thoughts and mental images about a cup do not make the cup 'real', even when there is a 'real' physical cup in the kitchen relatively speaking. The direct experience of thinking cannot be denied. However the contents of thought, what the thoughts are about, are not 'real', they are interpretations overlaid onto the direct experience. This is important as it applies to memory.

Can you see this?


Now try the exercise above with a bar of chocolate or something you know will bring a body response when thinking about it.
Imagine yourself opening the packaging and eating a piece of the chocolate?

Is either of the above two imaginings more 'real' than the other?
Was there any body response to one or both of the two imaginings?

If yes, let go of the mental image and bring your full attention to be with the body sensations for a while.
Let them be, just as they are....simply sensations.

Let me know how you got on.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[vistascan]

Now look at it, what you see in direct experience?

A black shape of a water bottle with a change in shape where the lid is.

Can it be known what the back side looks like?
If so, what tells what it looks like?
Can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?
Can this be known in direct experience?

No

Can an object be known at all?

Well in perception different objects do look different and separated from each other. But from this isolated perception of the bottle, the full bottle cannot be known.

Now, can you physically grasp or touch that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?
Is there a "real' cup or just an image of a cup?
Is the imagined content of the mental image (the cup) 'real'?

No. But there seems to be a difference between a cup I make up in my head and a cup from my kitchen that I remember. One seems more real than the other.

Is either of the above two imaginings more 'real' than the other?
Was there any body response to one or both of the two imaginings?

Memories feel more real. I could almost taste coffee and feel the softness of a towel when remembering it.

[Noro]

Hello again,

Is either of the above two imaginings more 'real' than the other?
Was there any body response to one or both of the two imaginings?

Memories feel more real. I could almost taste coffee and feel the softness of a towel when remembering it.

When you say Memories feel more real.... you have more than a mental image, there is also felt sensation arising or taste and tactile sensations accompanying the visual image, and so the visual image becomes multi-sensory which adds to the 'realness'.


OBSERVING THOUGHTS
The Direct experience of thought is very important in the seeing through of the self illusion. As always take your time to get comfortable and relaxed before beginning this meditation. Take it slowly and trying not to think about the answer, just let it come with what you experience directly. If you like, it can be helpful to get a piece of paper and write as it comes; from the flow of questioning and looking, clarity comes. Each question can be a meditation in itself.

Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice any thoughts arising.
Just let them appear as and when they appear. Try your best to not pay attention to what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

Can a thought think another thought?


Please answer each questions individually WITHOUT offering an explanation from conventional perspective. In other words, Yes or No answers are fine.

Look as many times as it is possible during the day even for a few seconds.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[vistascan]

there is also felt sensation arising or taste and tactile sensations accompanying the visual image, and so the visual image becomes multi-sensory which adds to the 'realness'.

This is very interesting. I knew that there were physical sensations that came with intense feelings like anxiety or grief, but I did not notice that the more real the thought felt, the more there was an accompanying physical sensation.

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

I don't know. They just appear and disappear.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

During this exercise, no.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

It seems I could have turned my thoughts in a certain direction if I tried.

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

It seems to be sort of an urging force, but I can't tell if it can cause anything on its own.

Can a thought think another thought?

No

[Noro]

Hi Vistascan,

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

It seems I could have turned my thoughts in a certain direction if I tried.

Is this not just another thought?
Where is this "I" that could have turned thoughts in a certain direction to be found?

Please look for any separate "I" or thinker in your direct experience.
Can this "I" be found other than as a thought?

Ask: What is the next thought going to be exactly?
Did the thought arise exactly as expected?


FRIEND/STRANGER

Bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."

Then bring up a thought about a character labeled "stranger."

Compare these thoughts.


Is there an actual difference in these thoughts or is it just different content?

Now, bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."

After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me.”

Is there a difference as far as thought goes?

Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character?"
Let me know what is experienced.

Bring up a thought "me" again.
Compare it with a thought "Mickey Mouse"

What makes one seem more personal than the other

Let me know what is found?


Warm regards,
Rowena

[vistascan]

Is this not just another thought?
Where is this "I" that could have turned thoughts in a certain direction to be found?

Yes. But it is more persistent and sticky.

Did the thought arise exactly as expected?

Sometimes yes. Sometimes not.

Is there an actual difference in these thoughts or is it just different content?

They feel different.

Is there a difference as far as thought goes?

Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character?"
Let me know what is experienced.

Well they feel like me.

What makes one seem more personal than the other

Let me know what is found?

I'm stumped here. I know there is a felt difference. That feeling alone is what makes all the "me" and "mine" thoughts different. But I can't pin down what exactly it is.

[Noro]

Hi there,

Is this not just another thought?
Where is this "I" that could have turned thoughts in a certain direction to be found?

Yes. But it is more persistent and sticky.

OK, but you didn't answer the second question!!
But never mind, we will get to that!

What makes one seem more personal than the other
Let me know what is found?

I'm stumped here. I know there is a felt difference. That feeling alone is what makes all the "me" and "mine" thoughts different. But I can't pin down what exactly it is.

Thanks for your honesty re. being stumped, and good noticing that there is a FELT difference and that we can call a "sense of self" or "me". It is like what comes into play when you did the earlier exercise with "I am" and without. Let's explore this.


EXPLORE - SENSE OF SELF:
The difference in Feeling something to be true and Seeing that it is or isn't.

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there.
At this point you can keep on believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit that even if they were, they are no longer there now.

Feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. (Remember the Colored Socks Example!)

Now I'd like you to explore this "sense of self" very thoroughly, not by thinking about it but be LOOKING FOR IT. There might be a familiar sensation that we label a sense of self, but can an actual self be found? Keep the focus of attention on this sense of self and answer each question separately and feel free to answer with a simple yes or no when appropriate:

Does this sense of self have a specific location? Yes/No
If Yes, is it permanently fixed, or does it come and go?
And if it comes and goes, where does it go to?
Does this sense of self have a shape or a size? Yes/No
Does this sense of self say or communicate anything? Yes/No
If the answer is yes, how does it do this?
Does this sense of self have any specific characteristics or attributes (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, contraction?
What is this sense of self made of? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Body Sensation? Thought?
Does this familiar "sense of self" confirm the existence of an actual self. Yes/No
In conclusion, is there any separate self to be found?

Remember, it is your direct experience, not whatever feelings and thoughts that come up about it, that we want to get clear about. Direct experience is not thinking about something, thinking about is mental overlay.

Please answer each question!

Warm regards,
Rowena

[vistascan]

Does this sense of self have a specific location? Yes/No

Yes. Behind the eyes and around the skull.

If Yes, is it permanently fixed, or does it come and go?

It's mostly fixed.

And if it comes and goes, where does it go to?

It can sort of contract down to behind the eyes. Or expand out to around the skull.

Does this sense of self have a shape or a size? Yes/No

Yes. It's like a ribbon or headband like the kind tennis players wear.

Does this sense of self say or communicate anything? Yes/No

No

Does this sense of self have any specific characteristics or attributes (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, contraction?

It's like a dull pressure.

What is this sense of self made of? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Body Sensation? Thought?

I'd say it's a mixture of sensation and thought.

Does this familiar "sense of self" confirm the existence of an actual self. Yes/No

It doesn't. But that doesn't take away the convincing nature of the thing.

In conclusion, is there any separate self to be found?

Only as far as I mentioned in the answers above.