Looking for the self

[starksj]

Please describe one specific instance in detail:

What happened just before the choice?

There was a sensation of thirst, followed by a thought about drinking some water. Then the action of reaching for the cup happened.

I can’t find a distinct event of deciding or choosing
it seems to be sensations, thoughts and actions.

2. How did the choice arise? Were there thoughts, feelings, sensations, or impulses involved?

It appears to be a collection of sensations, thoughts, and actions.

3. Could you find anyone actually making the choice, or did the choice simply happen?

No, I cannot find anyone making the choice. There are just sensations, thoughts, and actions happening.
and thoughts happening.

4. Was there a thought afterward claiming, "I chose that"?

Yes, after I finished drinking the water, a thought arose claiming ownership of the action: “I chose to do that.”

[Iconoclast]

Very good, Jon!

Let's explore something different now.

Recall a recent situation in which you experienced frustration, irritation, anxiety, or emotional discomfort.

What exactly was happening in direct experience?

Was there just an unpleasant sensation, or was there also a sense of "someone" to whom it was happening?

Did thoughts about the situation create or intensify a sense of "me"?

Can discomfort exist without a separate sufferer?

Please describe one concrete example in detail.

[starksj]

Hi Necip!
Hope all is well!

Let's explore something different now.

Recall a recent situation in which you experienced frustration, irritation, anxiety, or emotional discomfort.

An unpleasant relationship issue arose.

What exactly was happening in direct experience?

There was a contraction in my chest, increased heart rate, a feeling of warmth in the face, and getting caught up in a train of thoughts about how to change or fix the situation. All of these sensations were taken as unpleasant and there was resistance to feeling them.

Was there just an unpleasant sensation, or was there also a sense of "someone" to whom it was happening?

Yes, there were unpleasant sensations, along with a sense that the discomfort belonged to “me,” that it was happening to “me.”

Did thoughts about the situation create or intensify a sense of “me"?

Yes, the thoughts about how to manage, control and fix the situation intensified the sense of “me.”

Can discomfort exist without a separate sufferer?

Yes, I have experienced discomfort without a separate sufferer in other situations.

Please describe one concrete example in detail.

This answer isn't specific to this situation, but rather reflects what I've observed in other situations.

When the sense of “me” was strong, the situation felt very personal, and there was resistance to what was happening. When the sense of “me” became less prominent, the situation felt more impersonal, and the resistance subsided. The discomfort could simply be present without the need to change or fix it.

[Iconoclast]

Hi Jon,

Thank you for your clear responses!

Let's look a little more closely at something you mentioned.
You wrote:

"When the sense of 'me' became less prominent, the situation felt more impersonal, and the resistance subsided."

Now, when the sense of "me" is strong, is there actually a separate self present?

And when that sense becomes weaker, has an actual self disappeared?

In direct experience, can you find a separate self at any point, regardless of how strong or weak the sense of "me" may be?

[starksj]

"When the sense of 'me' became less prominent, the situation felt more impersonal, and the resistance subsided."

Now, when the sense of "me" is strong, is there actually a separate self present?

There is no separate entity. There are only thoughts and sensations. It appears that selfing occurs when there is the “me” thought.

When there are intense feelings/sensations, selfing can happen.

And when that sense becomes weaker, has an actual self disappeared?

There is nothing to disappear. The sense of identification with the “me” thought weakens.

In direct experience, can you find a separate self at any point, regardless of how strong or weak the sense of "me" may be?

I cannot find a separate self, regardless of how strong or weak the sense of “me” is. There is only the idea of a self.

[Iconoclast]

Did you ever become happy?

Did you ever become unhappy?

[starksj]

Did you ever become happy?

Happiness appears and passes. When Happiness appears, the thought “I am happy” may claim ownership of that emotion.

Did you ever become unhappy?

Unhappiness appears and passes in the same way happiness does. The same process of claiming ownership can occur with unhappiness.

“I am happy” or “I am unhappy” is a thought. It does not mean that an actual “I” has become happy or unhappy.

[Iconoclast]

When happiness or unhappiness arises, is there actually someone experiencing it, or is there just the experience itself?

Please look at a concrete instance rather than answering from your understanding of how the process works.

Did you ever become happy?

Hey, do you exist?

Look directly!

[starksj]

When happiness or unhappiness arises, is there actually someone experiencing it, or is there just the experience itself?

Please look at a concrete instance rather than answering from your understanding of how the process works

.


My partner and I were enjoying spending time together at one of our favorite restaurants, and there was joy and happiness.

Did you ever become happy?

When I look at that specific example, I can only find happiness present, but no one who could claim ownership.

Hey, do you exist?

No, I cannot find anyone separate from thoughts and sensations, nor can I find anyone separate from happiness.

[Iconoclast]

Hi Jon,

Thank you for your answers!

Let's explore something a little different.

Recall a recent situation in which someone criticized you, disagreed with you, or treated you unfairly.

What happened in your immediate experience at the moment you felt affected?

Was there a sense of "me" being criticized, challenged, or treated unfairly?

Please describe what actually happened, including any thoughts, emotions, and bodily sensations, without trying to explain or analyze them.

[starksj]

Hi Necip!

Recall a recent situation in which someone criticized you, disagreed with you, or treated you unfairly.

Someone close to me was upset about some situation they were dealing with, and they criticized me.

What happened in your immediate experience at the moment you felt affected?

Before I was criticized, I felt open. Immediately after I was criticized, the openness closed up. I felt pressure in my head.

Was there a sense of "me" being criticized, challenged, or treated unfairly?

Initially, for the first few seconds, there was a slight sense of “me” being criticized, but then that quickly subsided and the situation became impersonal.

Please describe what actually happened, including any thoughts, emotions, and bodily sensations, without trying to explain or analyze them.

Initially, I bought into what was being said, the thought of disappointment arose. My heartbeat was elevated and very pronounced, there was pressure in my head and a knot in the stomach area. There was also anxiety. Once it was seen through for what it was, I no longer bought into what was been said, but the bodily sensations remained. Then everything was left as it was, without the need to change anything.

[Iconoclast]

Hi Jon,

Thank you for your response. Let's look a little more closely at something you described.

You wrote:

Initially, I bought into what was being said.

And then:

Once it was seen through for what it was, I no longer bought into what was being said.

When you say "I bought into it," was there actually someone believing those thoughts, or was believing simply happening?

And when the identification dissolved, was there someone who saw through it or made it dissolve?

Finally, what exactly was the "me" that seemed to be criticized during those first few seconds?

Was there anything there beyond thoughts, emotions, and bodily sensations?

Please look directly rather than reasoning about these questions.

[starksj]

When you say "I bought into it," was there actually someone believing those thoughts, or was believing simply happening?

Initially, there was a train of self-referential thoughts and strong feelings arising together, making things feel very personal. When selfing was recognized, the situation felt impersonal. The feeling of identification simply faded. There was no actual someone believing the thoughts. There were just thoughts/believing happening.

And when the identification dissolved, was there someone who saw through it or made it dissolve?

There was no one who saw through it. The identification just dissolved.

Finally, what exactly was the "me" that seemed to be criticized during those first few seconds?

The “me” being criticized was a thought. As was said earlier there were momentary thoughts of “me” until that dissolved. Once the thought of “me” dissolved there was no need to react, defend or engage with the criticism.

Was there anything there beyond thoughts, emotions, and bodily sensations?

There was nothing other than thoughts, anxiety, pressure in the head, a knot in the stomach, and a pounding heartbeat.


With Love
Jon

[Iconoclast]

Hi Jon,

Thank you. Your description is clear.

Let's explore one subtle point.

You mentioned that once the thought of "me" dissolved, there was no need to react or defend.

But suppose defensiveness, anger, or an impulse to argue had continued arising even after the sense of "me" disappeared.

Would that mean a separate self had returned? Or could all of that happen without anyone owning or controlling it?

Please look at your actual experience rather than reasoning about it.

Much love,

Necip

[starksj]

HI Necip!

But suppose defensiveness, anger, or an impulse to argue had continued arising even after the sense of "me" disappeared.

Would that mean a separate self had returned? Or could all of that happen without anyone owning or controlling it?

I have not been able to clearly observe defensiveness or an impulse to argue continuing after a sense of “me” disappeared. I have not had that experience yet.