seeking freedom

[graceabounds]

I still feel that there is someone, even though I mentioned previously that I feel a hurry and that I could step back. But there is more space now, and in some moments I can see clearly that there is nobody.

What happens in the transition between clarity and this feeling of me? What is different?

[danielak]

My family came to visit and left yesterday morning. During that time, I was completely entangled in this feeling of “me.” The difference I notice between this and clarity is where my attention is focused. I was distracted by my family’s presence; my attention was in my thoughts, and I was doing things on autopilot, not really paying attention to the direct experience of what was going on.

Yesterday, after they left, I was able to get back to my routine and focus my attention on this practice: inquiring, pausing, observing, and paying attention to direct experience. That is when I get some clarity. Besides attention, what is different is the sensation of things slowing down, with more pauses, and of not being in the automatic “doer” mode.

And again, the specific moment of transition from clarity to the feeling of “me” is when my attention shifts. Something happens, or I get distracted, and I get entangled in thoughts and identified with them.

[graceabounds]

Are you in control of attention?

When you were with your family, was the sense of “me” actually a separate entity that took control of attention? Or were there thoughts, sensations, reactions, and activities happening, followed by the thought that someone called “me” was doing them?


Apart from the thought describing the situation as “I am distracted” or “I have lost clarity,” what is actually present in direct experience?

Is there a someone who gets distracted or entangled?

[danielak]

Are you in control of attention?

No.

When you were with your family, was the sense of “me” actually a separate entity that took control of attention?

No. I see that the attention has patterns, like if I'm with friends or family it goes in a direction, when I'm by myself or have a routine, it focus on something else. I see the pattern, but not the controller

Or were there thoughts, sensations, reactions, and activities happening, followed by the thought that someone called “me” was doing them?

Yes! the pattern, the conditioning happens, in the sense that it's not completely random. And the immediate thought that it's "me" kicks in. And the point here that maybe I'm a bit confused is, in order to see the truth, this conditioned thought of "it's me doing" has to be questioned, challenged. It's not me doing, but it needs to happen, and it's very tempting to say that I'm making this effort to focus on this gap moment. or that I'm intentionally questioning "Who is thinking". And the funny thing is that when I ask this question becomes very clear that there is no-one thinking. but the intention to make the question seems coming from someone.

Apart from the thought describing the situation as “I am distracted” or “I have lost clarity,” what is actually present in direct experience?

Not sure if I got the question, but while I'm distracted all the senses or direct experience still happening. I'm thinking, seeing, hearing, feeling., I can't notice anything in particular about the senses.. it just feels that the focus is more in the thinking and not paying attention to what is happening in the present moment.

Is there a someone who gets distracted or entangled?

That is a good question. No.

[graceabounds]

And the immediate thought that it's "me" kicks in. And the point here that maybe I'm a bit confused is, in order to see the truth, this conditioned thought of "it's me doing" has to be questioned, challenged. It's not me doing, but it needs to happen

I think it has been fruitful, this looking?

What is it about this ‘me’ thought that requires, let’s say, more care to question than any other thought? Does it come along with anything different in direct experience? Is it the frequency? Is it that it is seen through but doubted (another thought)?

when I ask this question becomes very clear that there is no-one thinking. but the intention to make the question seems coming from someone.

Just let the next thought come.
1. Notice a thought appearing.
2. Let the question arise: “What is thinking this?”
3. Now notice the impulse to ask the question in the first place.

Stay with that last part. Don't answer with an explanation.
What is the actual evidence that someone initiated the inquiry?
Perhaps there's a subtle feeling of intention? a mental image of yourself doing the practice, a sentence saying “I'm going to investigate this,” or a bodily movement toward doing something?

Look carefully. Those are all things you can notice. But is any one of them the separate entity you assume is behind the action? Or does the sense of a someone arrive as part of the same unfolding experience?

See what's there.

[danielak]

Hi Becca,

I’m going to reply to your questions and observations later, but for now I would like to share what is going on. On Thursday, I was in Ilona’s meeting, and something happened there that was very, very clear: there was no “I”. It was as if there was a clear understanding of what she was trying to say. I saw that thoughts were just bubbling up all the time, and it was so clear that the only thing that exists is direct experience. The thoughts by themselves had no meaning, but they could cause reactions, emotions, and sensations. That same day, I had a very embarrassing experience, and even that was just thoughts, conditioning, and reactions happening, with no identification. Even the thought afterward, “This was so stupid, how could I have done such a thing?”, was just a reaction, not about “me”. During that day there were thoughts like “That’s it”, “This is what no-self means”, and then “I finally got it”. And to be honest, in that moment it wasn’t clear whether there was a real realization or just the thought “I got it”. I know thoughts like “I want to test with Becca if I really got it” and “What if it’s just my ego?” kicked in, and I think I identified with them. But an opening happened. It was profound.

However, yesterday it was the opposite: a very strong identification. I was listening to the podcast you suggested, and she was talking about observing the “selfing” in conversations and in the way we interact with others, and how it shows up when we’re defending our perspective. I could see so clearly how attached I am to my point of view, especially yesterday. We’re having elections in my country. The population is totally polarized. I defend one party, and it’s so frustrating to see the absurd things the other group is doing and what they’re proposing. I’m so worried, frustrated, and angry, and I can’t understand how people are voting for this guy. This is affecting me profoundly. I think they’re all brainwashed, and they probably think the same about us. But this conviction I have is very strong, and it’s very disturbing.

Another thing that happened yesterday (actually, it has been happening for a while) is that in my house I like things organized. I don’t like it when my husband or stepson takes things and doesn’t put them back, especially my things, or leaves shoes in the living room, etc. But I feel this is taking on such a huge dimension. I’m so stressed and affected by it that I couldn’t relax and watch a movie until he did what we asked. I’m attached, controlling, and wanting things my way, in such a strong way that it’s really affecting me.

Part of my attention goes to just observing the direct experience: they’re just thoughts, there is no one controlling anything. But right now there is a much stronger part that says, “Fuck this, I won’t relax until the house is organized,” or is so angry at people from the opposite party. That is a very, very strong “not letting go” even having clear that this liberation is the most important thing for me, this "fuck this" particularly today is stronger. And again I’m confused and suffering.

This process hasn’t been much fun, lol. Even when I had that big opening on Thursday, there was a sensation of frustration, not a big deal at all, and now there’s this rollercoaster of emotions, thoughts, and changes in perception.

[danielak]

I sent the previous msg, and now I'm much more stable, calm, and I don't even know what that means in direct experience. Anyway, about your previous enquire:

What is it about this ‘me’ thought that requires, let’s say, more care to question than any other thought? Does it come along with anything different in direct experience? Is it the frequency? Is it that it is seen through but doubted (another thought)?

I sense that when I question about what is me, there is a silence, so the thoughts spots for a while and I can be more present to the senses, to the present moment. It feels it requires an effort to be understood. And yes, I believe there is a lot of doubt.

What is the actual evidence that someone initiated the inquiry?

there is no evidence at all. But,
there is a feeling of intention, more like the sentence "I'm going to investigate this", and this though feels more "real" than other ones.

But is any one of them the separate entity you assume is behind the action?

no

does the sense of a someone arrive as part of the same unfolding experience?

yes

[graceabounds]

Lovely.

So my question is:
Can the illusion of ‘I’ ever not be an illusion again when looking?
If not then there are some questions I can use to explore if there are any gaps in seeing through self.

And that would place the other things you describe with elections and organization into exploring what’s next when there isn’t someone at the center of these reactions. They can be dismantled in time when the underlying beliefs are seen through, though initially they are much stronger precisely because there isn’t a self structure ‘managing’ them.

(In the Awakening Curriculum these would be Fetters 4 & 5.)

[danielak]

Thank you so much Becca, I really appreciate your guidance, and it's been very important to me.

Can the illusion of ‘I’ ever not be an illusion again when looking?

No

f not then there are some questions I can use to explore if there are any gaps in seeing through self.

Here I get a bit confused, Maybe while the identification arises, I keep asking: who wants, who thinks, who gets angry....?

I guess that I can tell that there're no self. But I don't really feel it. That makes me doubt whether I'm just intellectualizing or seeing clearly.
My confusion is: when I see clearly that there is no one commanding my thoughts or actions, a though like "I finally got it", or " If I really got this maybe now I could also be guiding other people", or "I don't sound wise enough, or clear enough to have seen through the illusion of self", "if that is seeing the truth, that is not enough" , or "Am I making this up because I want this so much or II really crossed the gate?" All these questions, and other, comes right after I "think" I have seen the truth, and they all are very egoic. While thinking those thoughts I'm very identified as "me" seeing the truth. and at some point after I realize that it was just another identification.
And if that is seeing through the gate, I'll definitely need some support, because it's "worse" than it was before lol. I'm joking, but I feel now I'm more confused, and some of my conditionings are even more strong..

[graceabounds]

I guess that I can tell that there're no self. But I don't really feel it

What did/do you imagine when you say you will ‘feel’ no self?

All these questions, and other, comes right after I "think" I have seen the truth, and they all are very egoic

Are you in control of or responsible for all these thoughts? Can you prevent them? Can you choose to have a different thought instead?

and at some point after I realize that it was just another identification.

What happens in the body when this is seen?

[danielak]

What did/do you imagine when you say you will ‘feel’ no self?

Not beeng so entangled in the thoughts about me, especially those that makes me feel bad, like guilty, shame, anxiety. I imaged that something that triggers me (or the conditioning) not bother me so much, because there would be a realization that it's just thoughts.

Are you in control of or responsible for all these thoughts? Can you prevent them? Can you choose to have a different thought instead?

See..you're right. No I can't have control of it. And for that moment I thought I had.

What happens in the body when this is seen?

This's so trick for me, because when it happens, I'm not paying attention to the body sensations. And when I move my attention to the body to observe it, but I'm not sure if something changed because I moved my attention or I just wasn't observing my body.
If I try it right now, there is a pressure in my chest, up to my throat , I'm worry about a situation here, which makes me distressed. When I ask who is distressed, there is a silence, it seems I bread deeply and less pressure in the chest...

[graceabounds]

When I ask who is distressed, there is a silence, it seems I bread deeply and less pressure in the chest...

You noticed something important, but let's be precise. The silence and the release of pressure are not proof that you have seen through the self. Nor does your confusion prove that you haven't. What matters is what you can actually observe, rather than what you conclude about it.

You also said something revealing: you expected that seeing through the self would mean becoming less entangled in thoughts, particularly those involving guilt, shame, and anxiety.

Notice the expectation hidden in that. You expected the recognition to change how you feel!
Let's investigate what's happening, rather than compare it with what you imagined should happen.

1. Feel the pressure around your chest and throat. Set aside the labels for a moment. Notice its texture, intensity, movement, and whatever else is actually felt.
2. Let the thoughts come. Perhaps there's a thought about the situation, another about how you should handle it, and another about whether you're doing this inquiry correctly.
3. Don't ask who is distressed just yet. First, notice the difference between the physical sensation and the thoughts describing it.

Now look closely.Is there anything in the sensation itself that says, “This is happening to me”?
Or does that personal meaning arrive as thought, image, memory, or some other experience?

Don't answer from what you already believe about no-self. Look at what's present now.

When I ask who is distressed, there is a silence, it seems I bread deeply and less pressure in the chest...

I'd like you to look at that moment again, if you can recall it, or repeat the inquiry gently if the distress is still present.

Don't try to produce silence or relief.

Let the distress be there, if it is there.

Then ask, “Who is distressed?”

Notice whatever happens next.

When the pressure eases, what exactly has disappeared?

Is the distress itself gone? Has the thought-story about the distress temporarily stopped? Has the feeling of being its owner weakened? Or is something else happening?

[danielak]

Dear Becca,

I took sometime before responding to you because I wanted to try what you suggested. However, these last two day I haven't been distressed as I had described before. What I have been doing is focusing on the sensations. It was challenging to me to identify clearly the sensation linked to an emotion. But I'm trying to be more attentive to it..
These days I have been working a lot, and this weekend something important is happening that also gonna keep me busy, so I have been thinking a lot about the future. I know that I'm stress because one of my eyes is twitching, but it's not the sadness or anguish I felt before.

What I feel right now is just a light pressure in my chest, sometimes my eye twitches, but that's it. Yesterday I was tired, and I noticed the heaviness on my eyes, a pressure to close while I was working. Those sensations by themself don't say anything to me, they're just sensations happening. It's my thoughts that "explain" them.

you expected that seeing through the self would mean becoming less entangled in thoughts, particularly those involving guilt, shame, and anxiety.

that's true! I know what I'm about to say is just more thinking, but I feel that having some clarity helps. I see the there is a paradox here, but maybe I'm wrong: The key is to accept things as they are, let them arise, not resist, right? let the anxiety, fear, guilt be...but by doing that they can be released and be less intense or dissolve. In this case, Does my expectation make sense? What should I do with my expectation?