inquiry

[talos]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that the idea of an “I” or a “self” is an illusion—a story constructed in the mind, perhaps with the “help” of society, culture, etc.
Many of us believe that there is someone inside us who is in charge or in control of things. But in fact, there is no such entity. Things and life are simply happening, without a doer.
I understand that.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for guidance that will help me explore this idea of the self and move beyond this illusion—not only mentally, but in direct experience and in reality.
The process of writing seems to me to have great potential for this. As I'm writing these lines, I can already feel it.
I don't feel that I have any expectations or illusions about what it is like to be beyond the belief in a self. I just feel a great curiosity and a desire to see the truth and reality as they are.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect a guided conversation to provide an open space for exploring no-self and the beliefs I have about the “I”—to get pointers that will help me investigate and look into what is true, and to reflect on things that come up when needed.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
For the past two years, I've been practicing meditation daily, studying and investigating through both classical Buddhism and more modern teachings. For the past year, I've also been participating in a sangha group.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Elad]

Welcome :)

What would you like me to call you on this forum? Some people use their normal name, some find another.

The process of writing seems to me to have great potential for this. As I'm writing these lines, I can already feel it.

1) Tell me more about that, what are you already feeling?


2) Say out load the sentence: "there is no separate self, there is no-one separate from this, doing this".

Do it many times.
Each time, notice what happens, just notice.
Let me know what happens.

[talos]

Hey,
Thank you. You can call me Tal, or Talos, as some of my friends call me.
When you asked me what I would like to be called, it brought up a sensation that I’ve had in me for a long time: a kind of lack of attachment to my name. For years, I interpreted it as some kind of disconnection, but maybe it’s not that.

What I meant when I wrote about the process of writing is that most of the time I’m reading about inquiry, awareness, no-self, and so on. It’s very interesting and insightful, but also a bit passive. And when I start writing about it, it feels like something from all of this becomes alive in reality, rather than remaining just stories or concepts. When the writing happens, like it is now, there’s just a flow and an aliveness in the expression.

Regarding the sentence-
At first, there was curiosity, and then it was like I could feel in myself how the “I” creates separation. Later, the question arose: what is the separate self?
It feels like it’s not actually clear what the separate self is, because I don’t see or feel anything that is separate

[Elad]

Hi Tal(os) :)

Beautiful.

It feels like it’s not actually clear what the separate self is

Exactly.


1)


For the next day, as many times as possible, just be curious "what is it that seemingly is the self" ? What is it that is experienced NOW as if it is me ? What is it that seemingly is the feeling of me?

I am not asking you to give an intellectual answer (never). Just explore many many times, even for short moments, across different normal life situations. Don't try get rid of the sense of self, however vague or not vague it is. In fact, when the sense of self is more obvious, there is a better chance of waking up in really exploring what it is, how it is, where it is.

Let me know what happens


2)


Do the following exercise:


“I” labelling

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and
the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a
thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self
side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to
feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go
on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I
was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?


Let me know how you go and what you notice.

[talos]

When searching for the self/me in the now, it’s not clear where it is.
I recognized body sensations and being.
Every time I felt that I knew what the self is, it was actually a thought that was coming in to explain what it is, and then I recognized it as a thought. But still, it’s like I have this inner belief that it exists.

I-labeling
I did the exercise exactly as you wrote it, and it seems like most of the thoughts I had were about or connected to the self.

[Elad]

Good stuff!

Keep looking at this sense of self, what does it consist of? Is there a real self? If not, why is it still believed? What is being held on to?



Mind labelling experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes
about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any
bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a
computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just
a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this
time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using
verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again,
watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was
labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?


Letting you know I will be on retreat around Sep 20-26 and in that period will not be available to respond here. We can still have at least one more exchange here before, if you respond within a day or so, and I can then give instructions for that period.

[talos]

"Keep looking at this sense of self. What does it consist of? Is there a real self? If not, why is it still believed? What is being held on to?"

Still looking into that...

Thank you. It was a great exercise.
1.Whenever I added an “I” to the experience, I felt a sense of hardness in it. Whenever I described the experience as it is, I felt more flow and presence. Things just were as they were, and it felt right.
2. Without labels, there is just experience and flow.
3. From this exercise, it was clear that labels affect the experience. Whenever I was with the “I,” it felt rigid, as if everything was happening to me. There was a kind of burden in it. When there was only experience, it felt lighter, more connected, and the experience was flowing.
4.I noticed a difference in the body. The difference was more internal. When I said “I,” it felt every time like I was holding something inside.

I will patiently wait until you finish your retreat.

[Elad]

I'm back :)

Thank you. It was a great exercise.
1.Whenever I added an “I” to the experience, I felt a sense of hardness in it. Whenever I described the experience as it is, I felt more flow and presence. Things just were as they were, and it felt right.
2. Without labels, there is just experience and flow.
3. From this exercise, it was clear that labels affect the experience. Whenever I was with the “I,” it felt rigid, as if everything was happening to me. There was a kind of burden in it. When there was only experience, it felt lighter, more connected, and the experience was flowing.
4.I noticed a difference in the body. The difference was more internal. When I said “I,” it felt every time like I was holding something inside.

Good!

"Keep looking at this sense of self. What does it consist of? Is there a real self? If not, why is it still believed? What is being held on to?"

Still looking into that...

What has been seen and felt?

[talos]

I kept on looking since our last conversation.

When I ask myself honestly, “What is the self?”, I get the answer that the self is a combination of the body, thoughts, feelings, and stories.
But when this answer comes, it becomes clear to me that the self seems more like a label placed on all of those things. It doesn’t seem to exist on its own, like the body, for instance.

Sometimes, when I look for the self, there is a kind of quietness.

I think the big question for me is: Why is it still believed, and what is being held on to? That part is still a bit blurry.

When I ask myself if there is a real self, it feels like I cannot say yes, but I also cannot say no. Logically, I can say no. But I want the “no” to come from a deeper knowing, rather than from logic.

[Elad]

When yuu ask "is there a self here outside of the whole owning things and doing things?" what do you find?

If what comes is "silence" or "nothing can be said": Stay there. What is that? And whenever there is a "getting out of that" with thoughts or actions, where does that come from?


Also do this exercise:


Finding the Gap

This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as
they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to
look when looking for the ‘separate self’.
Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least
10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes
and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a
pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better
things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought
passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a
few seconds before the next thought come in.
This is how to look at thoughts:-
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.
Please do the following exercise:

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as
possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and
just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two
thoughts.

Let me know how you go.

[talos]

When you ask, “Is there a self here outside of the whole owning things and doing things?” what do you find?
I don’t find anything else. Even the owning of things seems odd to me, although I know that I sometimes do it automatically.

I did the exercise with the gap, and to be honest, it was more challenging than I thought. Although I meditate regularly, I was surprised by how easily I get identified with my thoughts. I noticed the gap both in meditation and in everyday life. At the beginning, I tried to hold on to the gap, trying to make it last, and that created a struggle. But then I understood what I was doing and let go.
I had a difficult week with the inquiry. It began with the feeling that I had to find or not find the self. Again, I noticed the struggle and let go of it for a few days.
Maybe I’m getting frustrated by the gap between intellectually understanding the absurdity of the idea of “me” or “I” and not being able to actually feel it in reality.

[Elad]

When you ask, “Is there a self here outside of the whole owning things and doing things?” what do you find?
I don’t find anything else. Even the owning of things seems odd to me, although I know that I sometimes do it automatically.

Yes, clear.

I did the exercise with the gap, and to be honest, it was more challenging than I thought. Although I meditate regularly, I was surprised by how easily I get identified with my thoughts. I noticed the gap both in meditation and in everyday life. At the beginning, I tried to hold on to the gap, trying to make it last, and that created a struggle. But then I understood what I was doing and let go.

Try again, with a piece of paper, sitting maybe at a cafe, and just make a mark every time you register a new thought. Do short periods with this, say 2-5 min. Let me know what is experienced.

I had a difficult week with the inquiry. It began with the feeling that I had to find or not find the self.

Why would you have to? What would have to?

Maybe I’m getting frustrated by the gap between intellectually understanding the absurdity of the idea of “me” or “I” and not being able to actually feel it in reality.

How do you know you are not feeling it? How should feeling it feel like? What is the feeling of "santa claus is not here now"?

[Elad]

Do this exercise:


Stream Exercise


Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a
hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.
Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where,
had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes
to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over
a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its
directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the
rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment,
or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing
something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what
to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there
are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention
there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for
preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!)
etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find
someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'Tal' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

[talos]

Try again, with a piece of paper, sitting maybe at a cafe, and just make a mark every time you register a new thought. Do short periods with this, say 2-5 min. Let me know what is experienced.

still working on that

Why would you have to? What would have to?

I think it became like a mission, something "i" need to succeed in. here i suspect that it became a mission of the ego.


How do you know you are not feeling it? How should feeling it feel like? What is the feeling of "santa claus is not here now"?

From this question, I realized that I hold a belief about how this process should unfold. I think reading Gateless Gatecrashers opened things up for me, but it also constructed an idea of how things should develop. I understand that now.

.
stream exercise

The answer is no, although at first, the mind said yes. I tried to examine this. Let's say I'm going to the fridge to get something to eat. First, there's a feeling of wanting food, followed by a thought: "I want this from the fridge." Then there's getting up, moving, and physically acting to get it.

All of these are elements: thoughts, feelings, sensations, and body movements. None of them is me. There's only the thought that the one experiencing these elements, or the one making them happen, is "me."

2.

Choosing what to wear in the morning.

I'm getting ready for work, and there's a thought that I need to look "dignified enough." Then there's the body's movement as I open the closet, followed by a thought about which shirt and trousers to wear. There's also a feeling or sensation of what feels nice to wear — a combination of looking good and feeling comfortable. Then comes the physical action of taking the clothes out and getting dressed.

Some of these actions are prompted by thoughts, some by feelings, and some arise from habits or patterns.

"Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?"

I cannot find anyone separate from these elements. As Im writing it its hard for me to accept it/

3.

The first thing that comes to mind is that decisions are made and actions are taken every day, from deciding where to go to what to do and how to act. The belief is that "Tal" is the one making all of these decisions.

If I speak kindly or nastily to someone, is it not "me" who should take responsibility for those actions? if there is no "me" who is responsible?

[Elad]

Try again, with a piece of paper, sitting maybe at a cafe, and just make a mark every time you register a new thought. Do short periods with this, say 2-5 min. Let me know what is experienced.

still working on that

Tell me more concretely what happens doing this exercise several times anew. Try also different places, at home, at a cafe, in the train, etc. Make it playful and easygoing instead of "working on it".

Why would you have to? What would have to?

I think it became like a mission, something "i" need to succeed in. here i suspect that it became a mission of the ego.

See how this pattern, like all the uncomfortable or unskilful ones are as free of a Tal choosing them or controlling them as all the rest. And don't make seeing that into something big and difficult. Just "chill-fully" see it again and again. Smile at it and with the feelings.

How do you know you are not feeling it? How should feeling it feel like? What is the feeling of "santa claus is not here now"?

From this question, I realized that I hold a belief about how this process should unfold. I think reading Gateless Gatecrashers opened things up for me, but it also constructed an idea of how things should develop. I understand that now.

Very good.



.

stream exercise

The answer is no, although at first, the mind said yes. I tried to examine this. Let's say I'm going to the fridge to get something to eat. First, there's a feeling of wanting food, followed by a thought: "I want this from the fridge." Then there's getting up, moving, and physically acting to get it.

All of these are elements: thoughts, feelings, sensations, and body movements. None of them is me. There's only the thought that the one experiencing these elements, or the one making them happen, is "me."

2.

Choosing what to wear in the morning.

I'm getting ready for work, and there's a thought that I need to look "dignified enough." Then there's the body's movement as I open the closet, followed by a thought about which shirt and trousers to wear. There's also a feeling or sensation of what feels nice to wear — a combination of looking good and feeling comfortable. Then comes the physical action of taking the clothes out and getting dressed.

Some of these actions are prompted by thoughts, some by feelings, and some arise from habits or patterns.

"Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?"

I cannot find anyone separate from these elements. As Im writing it its hard for me to accept it/

Right on.

The first thing that comes to mind is that decisions are made and actions are taken every day, from deciding where to go to what to do and how to act. The belief is that "Tal" is the one making all of these decisions.

Is this belief still being believed NOW ? I am not asking if it habitually happens. I am asking if it is truly believed NOW when truly attended to NOW ?


Again, not asking for an evaluation (really a story!) about what is believed to happen accross time now. The story is always a story of a me. This is the nature of the story, of the "relative". I am asking what is actually seen and believed NOW. look many times.

If I speak kindly or nastily to someone, is it not "me" who should take responsibility for those actions? if there is no "me" who is responsible?

Does it take an ultimately separate and responsible self for there to be responsible and iresponsible acts in the conventional sense? Does it take this illusory self for compassion and love to exsist and for discernment to exist and for these to naturally operate when not clouded by confusion and resistance?

Again, see the stories/belief habits are creating in real time, and then turn away from them to see what is actually experiences and seen freshly NOW.