Ready to pull back the curtains on 'I'.

[graceabounds]

To clarify, does the I reassert itself? Is there a snapping out?

Or only in thought?

[Mogie]

Oh hello…

It IS just a thought.

Was there anything missing when I existed in that gap between thoughts? No.

Then the thought ‘I’ arose and there started a cascade of thoughts associating that single thought with a story. But in direct experience there is only that single thought, ‘I’. God, that’s so simple.

Oh I can feel my body resisting this now. It doesn’t want to let go. But there is a clarity there that I feel I need to be with for the rest of the day. Some tears coming now too.

I’ll be with this now for a while. I’m a bit lost for words.

[graceabounds]

:)

Does the body resist? Is it true?

It is ok to fall.

[Mogie]

I sense tightness in the shoulders and around the eyes. ‘The body resists’ is a thought. A story.

Over the last 24 hours ,as I have sit with this, something has changed. There is far less frustration in response to thoughts arising, as there previously would have been. The ‘I’ thought has lost some potency. A lot of potency, actually.

If I stop and watch I can see it’s no different to any other thought like, ‘I wonder what I’ll eat for lunch today’. It all feels very obvious and ordinary. So much fuss over this ‘I’ thought. (What an understatement!).

Right now, as I write this, I can see all the usual thought patterns playing out but now it’s different. The ‘I’ thought is still there and does its ‘thing’ if unchecked. But now there is a capacity there to stop and see right through it.

Nothing here I didn’t ‘already know’. Just like the keys analogy’; I was just fooling myself that the ‘I’ was me. That analogy felt like a real turning point actually. Thank you, Becca. From the bottom of my heart.

[graceabounds]

:D
I am also full of gratitude here, Liam, truly.

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I imagine myself loosening my ‘grip’ on life. Relaxing into each moment more.

What is everyday life like now?


Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds, all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colors, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement. Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

With love,
Becca
Is there anything which is not just happening?

[Mogie]

What is everyday life like now?

Everyday life looks from the outside much the same as it always has. What I notice though is that at any moment I can stop and remind myself that the self ‘running the show’ is no more real than any other thought that arises. This causes me to instantly inhabit a sense of presence that is silent and peaceful. It seems to last longer now too. In the past the ‘I’ thought wouldn’t have tolerated more than a few seconds of silence before interrupting. Now it feels quieter.

Notice that everything is part of one movement. Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

No line. No boundary in direct experience. No inside and outside in direct experience. The peace awareness of thoughts is not ‘included’ as it doesn’t have any movement to it. Undefinable. The most I can say about it is that it’s NOT the rest.

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

I wouldn’t say there is a witness. There is a witnessing that is not being done by anyone or any thing. I don’t experience it as part of the one movement as it doesn’t move. It is still.

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Again, all that is witnessed is ‘just happening’. The witnessing has no movement so can’t fit into a verb like ‘happening’.

Love and warmth,
Liam

[graceabounds]

Beautiful, Liam.

I'm going to offer a series of questions now for exploration, to see if there is anything remains to be deepened here. LOOK into each one. I’m not interested in philosophy but simply what is seen directly. :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it FEEL to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

8) Anything to add?

Much love,
Becca

[Mogie]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there isn’t. Just a compulsive thought that I was getting ‘stuck’ on. An exhausting thought. There never was a ‘me’. Just a story told anew again and again.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is the attaching to a particular thought. What exactly attaches to it is best described as attention. It then becomes a lense through which the world is experienced. It has to be sought to be experienced. Otherwise it’s just not there. I see now why I’ve struggled with meditation all these years (and why it feels like a joy now); this ‘I’ thought needs to be fed to survive. Silence starves it. It was literally fighting for its life every time I tried to sit in silence!
I see it now as a habit that has been exposed. It still comes up all the time but gets destroyed instantly when I just remember it is just another thought that has no basis in reality.

3) How does it FEEL to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels completely natural. Like I’ve come home. Like a compulsion is gently fading. Last night I played a league game of squash. My tendency is normally to be quite competitive, particularly with myself. I lost the match and felt a little disappointed immediately after it before reminding myself, ‘There’s nobody there to be disappointed’ at which point I instantly felt completely at peace with the result. That was an incredible moment. But it also made me feel so silly for fighting in the past so much for this ‘me’ entity. I was fighting for a ghost.

Conversations with others have felt different these past few days. My usual ADHD traits of getting distracted by thought were far less present. Staying with the thought ‘There is no ‘I’, every so often just had this grounding effect on me and made me feel so present. It made giving my attention almost effortless.

The difference from before we started is more peace. Less fighting against peace. Not a boring peace or anything like that. It feels full, not lacking.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

Honestly, I was ready to give up. I felt like I was wasting your time and I should allow someone else to benefit from your generosity. It was when I said I noticed I was ‘snapping out’ of silence when I sat and you simply asked ‘Is there a snapping out? Or only in thought?’. Something hit me at that moment and I was not expecting it and I suddenly got emotional. I realised the ‘me’ that was disturbing my peace was just another thought. There was a shift right there and then which took a day or two to become clearer. I doubted it could all be that simple.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

Decision: With no ‘me’ who is responsible for any decision? I can see this now but I feel my experience of it is only scraping the surface. I notice old thought habits attributing a decision-maker to decisions. I look forward to going deeper and deeper into this.

Intention: Again, like decision, doesn’t intention need an intender? Who is intending these words? Yes there is an intentionality behind them but there is not intender to be found.

Free will: Nobody there to have free will other than a constructed image. A ghost.

Choice: Who is choosing. I’m almost laughing here as I see the thought ‘I am’ arise. ‘Hey, look over here, I’m the chooser!’. Just another thought arising in this moment.

Control: An illusion. And I can already feel a ‘loosening’ the more I see it as an illusion. An exhausting illusion!

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

Nothing is acting on things in order for them to happen. I know this statement to be true but I still feel habitual resistance to it. The thought ‘That CAN’T be true!’. But in direct experience here and now there is just happenings - experiences, thoughts, sensations etc.

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Love this question. I can feel it loosening things even more. Who is the ‘you’ in that question? Since I no longer experience myself as a separate self with choice, free will, control etc. how could I be responsible for anything? Could I even say I’m responsible for finding this forum and things getting to where they are now? Now THAT’S a tough one for the ‘I’ thought to accept! Wow, this feels like I’m peaking through a door with so much possibility on the other side.

8) Anything to add?

This is truly life-changing. Really just like I’m remembering something I already knew. In the past 4 years I had started to really tune into my body on an increasingly subtle level and it was telling me something. It was telling me I was trying too hard and forcing life too much.
As I mentioned at the start, I’ve had a good twenty years of reading non-duality books and meditating but none of it was enough to create this shift. Who knows, maybe some of that stuff laid the foundations.

Becca, I don’t know where to start in thanking you for your generosity. It’s like you’ve given me the keys to a place I left a long time ago and now it’s mine to experience once again in all its possibilities. It’s hard not to feel like a child again. I’m excited to go deeper and deeper with this. Before all this I was bit jaded with life. Like I was watching the same movies or listening to the same songs over and over again.

I’m sure you’ve heard this from others but the real power in all of this was your gently directing me to once again trust my direct experience.

With deep love and appreciation,
Liam

[graceabounds]

Hello dear Liam,

Very good. Just one thing here I’d like to explore further.

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Love this question. I can feel it loosening things even more. Who is the ‘you’ in that question? Since I no longer experience myself as a separate self with choice, free will, control etc. how could I be responsible for anything? Could I even say I’m responsible for finding this forum and things getting to where they are now? Now THAT’S a tough one for the ‘I’ thought to accept! Wow, this feels like I’m peaking through a door with so much possibility on the other side.

Yes, but rather than conclude from a series of thought that you cannot be responsible let’s open that door and take that look.

If you accidentally hurt someone, does the absence of a separate controller mean there's no need to acknowledge the hurt, listen to the person, or make amends?

There can be selfing either way: ‘I am the guilty one’ is an identity and ‘nothing that happens has anything to do with me’ is also identity. :)

In other words, relatively speaking, does the dog still get walked and the child fed without a ‘you’?

In gratitude,
Becca

[Mogie]

Hi Becca,

Yes all will go on much as it always has. What needs to be done will be done whether it’s walking the dog, apologizing for hurting others or taking care of others. The difference is when I stop to look at WHO is doing it there is no longer an ‘I’. There is responsibility but no ‘I’ behind it. This is becoming clearer and clearer.

The last couple of days I’ve noticed how the old patterns of the mind come up and there is once again identification with ‘me’. This has been frustrating at times but as soon as there is the stopping to look there is no ‘me to be found who is frustrated.

Love,
Liam

[graceabounds]

Well, Liam, I have no further questions.

It appears that the Gateless Gate has been crossed… but as you know there is no Gate, no one to cross it, and no end to the journey.

Soon you’ll receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information with resources that might be of interest. Your username will change from green to blue and this thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

If you have any questions or hiccups at all in the continued unfolding you are welcome to drop a line here or I will DM you my email.

It has been a pleasure to walk beside you here. Of course it is not necessarily the end of our conversation.

If you ever feel pulled to guide here one day, you would be most welcome, in the meantime enjoy what is unfolding.

With gratitude and abundant love,
Becca

[Mogie]

Thank you so much Becca.