Lost & confused in need of help and guidance please!

[Alb]

Hi,
I am finally asking for help after trying to do this on my own and ending up in a mess.
In a state of exasperation and disillusionment with it all.
I have been reading and watching and listening to all the usual stuff that I can to get free but I think part of me just masochistically enjoys the suffering while the other part longs for peace and freedom and a miracle…
This feels alien and unreal to be doing this and as I write that I can see how much I identify and limit myself – better stop there before more bs starts flowing and see if someone can help me cut to bare essentials?

[Finoh]

Hi Alb,

I am available to guide you. I have a few ground rules.
1. Post every day and if you can't let me know.
2. I will post questions and you will answer with 100% honesty.
3. Answer from your own direct experience not from what you have read, heard or seen from others.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Please learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you are prepared to agree to these we can continue.

If you would now give me a rant on what your expectations are for being here. Your hopes, desires and what you actually expect.

Cheers

Finoh

[Finoh]

Alb,

Click on the link for the quote function.
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Cheers

Finoh

[Alb]

Thanks Finoh,
I really appreciate your help and am excited to really try this for myself.

I am available to guide you. I have a few ground rules.
1. Post every day and if you can't let me know.
2. I will post questions and you will answer with 100% honesty.
3. Answer from your own direct experience not from what you have read, heard or seen from others.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Please learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
If you are prepared to agree to these we can continue.
Yes I agree as far as I can but for 3. I can see 'I' am a result of every outside influence experienced so responses will not be completely authentic if I am to be honest, but don’t know if I am subtly fooling myself on this somehow.

If you would now give me a rant on what your expectations are for being here. Your hopes, desires and what you actually expect.
I really don’t know what to expect and am open to whatever comes as I am at a point where I have nothing to lose. Life has been successfully grinding me down to realise that there is no answer to anything and just have to put up with what is happening. That sounds dramatic and I know I am lucky compared to most but my mind has a way of sabotaging things and dwelling in ‘poor me’ victim mode. Just thoughts I know but they make me feel rotten and then I can dwell on those feelings etc…round and round on the wheel.
I was reading the Gatecrashers book and woke up one morning and felt different – lighter and carefree, I thought I had got it but no, my mind and life got me back on the wheel and back seeking to solve & create the problems.
I want the truth.
I hope to not feel depressed so much or if I do, to at least enjoy it! Maybe not own it so much.
I want to enjoy life and not waste any more time not being able to appreciate and be part of it.
If I can sort my ‘thought’ problems out, I would like to be able to help others to do the same.
I would like to prove the skeptical side of me wrong so that it disappears
I hope for miracles and the truth and expect nothing… (but hope that it is a good nothing)!
Thanks again.

Finoh[/quote]

[Alb]

I am trying to avoid my addiction to seeking as promised but admit I have been reading through some of the other recent posts here in the meantime (does that count ?) and it is weird but we could pretty much all be the same person going through the same stuff! Anyway it's nice to know we really all are in the same boat but I guess some may have more comfortable seats!)
Also in the middle of 'I Am That' which is pretty inspiring and supportive of the cause - is that off limits as well ? (It is in the LU recommended list.. ;).

[Alb]

Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Hard to answer as I don’t know if I really know experientially yet. I have a habit of copying and tweaking and taking for my own.
When I search I have not been able to find a specific me or an I, and I would have expected to have got close by now, it should not be that hard? The Eyes cannot see themselves kind of thing.
Before I started seeking I had my own theory which I came to – I am simple life force or energy expressing as Alb temporarily and may or may not then spark up another new life when this one is over. I find it hard not to say and rehash what other people have said and I feel I have to come up with this on my own for it to do whatever is meant to.
I definitely can say that I can relate to life is happening and being experienced from this perspective and there is no personal control. I have always been a kind of go with flow kind of person which may be the conditioned laziness or not. I am also indecisive. I am also labelling… and waffling.
I relate to the robot or programming analogies. I can pretty much see that nearly everything I have experienced that has formed the idea of I/me, is a result of outside stimuli and reaction and interpretation to those on the inside. The I/me concept has made it easier to relate and integrate in the world. Perhaps there is doubt if this is always the case and maybe there is some personal control hiding somewhere..? My mind is going blank and fuzzy trying to think and analyse this now and don’t know if I am making sense like when public speaking. Fear?
I think I need to keep looking to eradicate any doubts.
Anyway, as you can tell I am keen to do this and hope you can help me see where the confusion lays. I think it may be the separation side..?

[Finoh]

Hi Alb,
Thanks for your reply which I will address shortly.

Firstly, how to use the quote function.
1. Highlight what you want to quote.
2. 'control C' to copy.
3. Select where you want to place the quote.
3. Click on the quote on the subject bar.
4. This will appear [Quote][Quote]
5. Place the cursor between the [Quote]...cursor... [Quote]
6. Press 'control V' and the text will appear.

[Alb]

Thanks Finoh,
Yes it did not quite work as I expected or as I has seen in other threads so was going to try it again.
So here goes...:

1. Highlight what you want to quote.

Yes that's got it.
Sorry for too much info in the posts. Now realise difficult to reply to so much in one go in these forum type interfaces which I am new to.

[Finoh]

Hi Alb,

What city or time zone are you in. I am in Sydney, Australia.

My function here is to ask you questions that will lead you (or point) to the 'gate'. Once at the gate the final step is up to you, you are the only one that can take that step. When I point to something I want you to look and answer from your own direct experience not what you think about it. As an example I could ask you what it would be like to put your hand in a bowl of iced water for 30 or so seconds. You could give me a description of how it might feel whether there might be pain, discomfort etc, how your hand or fingers might change colour. I could then ask you to get some iced water and actually plunge your hand into it then you would have direct experience of what it was like.

Yes I agree as far as I can but for 3. I can see 'I' am a result of every outside influence experienced so responses will not be completely authentic if I am to be honest, but don’t know if I am subtly fooling myself on this somehow.

Now notice that this reply is not from direct experience but is just a collection of thoughts.

Reading the posts on here will give you a sense of what we are doing and once you have a general sense of how things are done just leave it. You will have plenty of time to read after you are through the gate that is if you desire it. ‘I am that’ whilst an excellent book is a distraction at this point leave it till later. As I have said before our focus is on direct experience.

In essence what we are dealing with here, is a dysfunction of the thought process that in fact creates what appears to be a separate being ( A thought.) that points toward ownership/identity that in reality doesn't exist...

Let me explain how this occurs right now. (The UN-liberated state.)

The mind in addition to being and incredible processing and storage device also is a labelling machine that labels experience as soon as perception happens...

Here's is an example...

Thought triggers feeling, feeling gets labelled--->New trigger--->Feeling gets more intense--->more labels--->Vicious feedback loop...

This goes on endlessly as long as this mental dysfunction persists...(The Self)

Try finding some negative or insecure thoughts...The more intense the better for this exercise... Feel how the body responds when these thoughts arise?<-----You can use the body as a tool to trace back thoughts that are associated to "The self"...Remember the body doesn't lie. This reflex is the same if someone was to slap or punch you and the body automatically reacts to protect itself...TRY IT!! get the feel of that sensation. This to will help guide you. (Even after liberation.)

So bring one or two of these thoughts up close...Now look at what's behind this thought.

What's there?------> What's driving it??

Cheers

Ian

[Alb]

I am in the UK and I am willing to deal with the time difference if you are.
I will leave everything and work with direct experience.
When I think of my negative thoughts I get a squeeze, discomfort in the chest and gut and then the sensations get labelled anxiety and panic, nausea. There is a sense of ownership and possession involved I guess where the mind kicks in and injustice and want for justice. I think it could be a protection mechanism... I have learnt that when focus remains on the experience it morphs and dissolves if I don't reinitiate it with more negative thinking. Yes I think it is self protection behind it and maybe some masochistic torture if I dwell to keep the victim identity going strong.

[Alb]

I have been trying to keep looking at the negative thoughts and at what's behind them and driving them. They become more elusive and slowly have less power. The physical contraction and discomfort is there still but less - mine...? What's driving the thoughts? I believe the past events occurred and are real I resist them and cannot accept them even though it is done and no longer relevant and nothing can be done about it. Resistance is behind these particular thoughts and non acceptance. And also beliefs. These are all as you say 'just a collection of thoughts' but I believe them and make them appear real in this moment. Something seems to want to hang on to them and not let them go. Even though part of me knows it is not of any use and just prolongs the pain. Is this the 'I' keeping hold of any identity it can? It certainly knows how I tick then and where to hide out. ;)
Thank you for taking the time to help with this. I have not been able to get this far in my own search - let me know if I am on the right track or still over analysing (old habits die hard).
Cheers
Alb

[Alb]

Personally held fear and desire are behind & drive thoughts. Life triggers them and thoughts and feelings result. Although I have observed thoughts coming from nowhere these seem like I make them more than the random daydream thoughts..? Also when I think of more constructive thoughts like planning it seems there is more control there. I have been fooling myself. I is alive and well here!

[Finoh]

Hi Alb,

When I think of my negative thoughts I get a squeeze, discomfort in the chest and gut

This is good direct experience.

I have been trying to keep looking at the negative thoughts and at what's behind them and driving them.

They are just thoughts don't bother labelling them negative or otherwise. The important thing is that you notice them.

I believe the past events occurred and are real I resist them and cannot accept them even though it is done and no longer relevant and nothing can be done about it.

You speak of these events as though they are real, aren't they just thoughts?
Remember what I wrote earlier,

Thought triggers feeling, feeling gets labelled--->New trigger--->Feeling gets more intense--->more labels--->Vicious feedback loop...
This goes on endlessly as long as this mental dysfunction persists...(The Self).

Although I have observed thoughts coming from nowhere these seem like I make them more than the random daydream thoughts..?

Try to keep an open mind. Look at direct experience. How do you choose which thoughts come into existence? And where do thoughts come from? Then start looking at the rest of the illusion of self emotions and sensations in the body. Did you bring them into existence?

I is alive and well here!

but is about to undergo some major "I threatening" surgery.

Cheers

Finoh (Ian)

[Alb]

Ok, so no over after overlaying interpretation, just simple description of hard facts and reality, I think I understand a bit clearer what you are after. Straight away I feel constriction frustration at not being allowed to embellish the physical reactions and it has nowhere to go and slowly reduces with some annoyance. No room for the story. :(

Try to keep an open mind. Look at direct experience. How do you choose which thoughts come into existence? And where do thoughts come from? Then start looking at the rest of the illusion of self emotions and sensations in the body. Did you bring them into existence?

This is where I don't know if I may be regurgitating read and heard stuff.
I need more direct experience evidence on the above so will try to gather some and start again from scratch. I find this difficult. All of a sudden thoughts are so sneaky and subtle.

but is about to undergo some major "I threatening" surgery.

I like the sound of this!

[Finoh]

Hi Alb,
I have reread your posts a number of times and the general sense I get is that there is a strong identification with thoughts, ‘my thoughts’. A lot of comments and labeling on the types of thoughts, negative thoughts, descriptions of thoughts, sorting out thought problems, eradicating doubts (thoughts), analysing thoughts, getting behind thoughts, what's driving them etc.

Much of this work consists of seeing how we get hooked by “our” thoughts. We examine these sharp, pointy, and sticky places. Just look in your direct experience and thought processes for the answers. Very simply: how do we “own” things? The screen you are reading on, is it a “your” screen or just “a” screen? Which seems more true? And why?

Finally and this is fairly lengthy explanation on labelling with a very good exercise to do at the end of it. It is not my work and I nicked it from one of the other guides. I found the exercise quite insightful.

Labels

When we are little children we learn to speak through labelling. At least this is how I remember.
Mum would ask - what is this?
I would say- this is a house
This is a car.
This is a window.
This is me.
Where is your nose?
Here is my nose, and I would touch it...

I have learned to label things and experiences and tested my limits and limits of my parents patience by throwing things, by saying no, by trying not to be conditioned. You know that little rebel age if you have kids.

So I learned the language and started using it, communicating with other people. One of most important words was me and mine: this is my toy, not my brother's.

No one has ever told me that 'me' is a word that is only useful in communication with others. Without others, there is no me, without I there is no them.

Somehow this belief in a me became stronger and took over, it became the central belief around which everything else was turning. It's like a belief, that earth is the centre of the universe, I became the centre of my world.

Until I looked. It really was just one look, it took a few seconds and all the search was over. The search for clarity, the quest of 'who am I?' was seen as cosmic joke.

There is no who.
There is nothing here in direct experience that is separate from experienced. Just this. Always now.

If you want to test this, simply do this little experiment that won't even take much of your time. All you need is 20 minutes, a pen & paper.

First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.

Like this-
I am laying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words..

Do it for 10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for next 10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:
Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the rain.

Again watch what is happening in the body.

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Your body knows. I is a label, not experiencer. Not a thinker, not a doer, not a hearer of rain. I is not what makes eyes blink and it is not a breather, it's a word, that is used for convenience of communication. If it's believed to be an entity, the mind is confused, the body is tensed up. Unconfusing it is simple- bring attention back to now and look once again- is there a me behind the word 'me'?

Life is happening. Looking is happening. Getting lost in the story is happening. With or without label I.

What is not on automatic?
And do we really need to be enslaved by labels? After all, experience is what labels point TO.

The story goes on. The belief in story drops away. The story is way much more enjoyable without the fear that something can happen to this 'me' once it's clearly seen that there is no actual me. Confidence, grace, fearlessness, peace with what is starts to shine through as fear gets loosened.

Imagine that! Humans got screwed by labels. And look at world of fashion- labels are so important!

So much emotional pain, such strong desire to get home, when home is all there is. Right here- underneath all the labels. Here, now waiting to be recognized.

Look. Don't think, just look.

Cheers

Ian