Smoke and mirrors

[Eileen]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no self in direct experience, only sensations and thoughts arising and disappearing by themselves. Everything just happens, there is no "I" moving the body, feeling, thinking or taking decisions. It is all just life patterning, everything being conditioned and all is one (I haven't really been able to see this last one).

What are you looking for at LU?
I've read Gateless Gatecrashers and Liberation Unleashed, part of the quotes and some forums thread to try to work this out by myself but I feel like I need some guidance to go further. I'm experiencing thoughts saying this or that has been seen through but then others take their place saying I just want to believe it so much I am creating this experience. And then I realise all those are only thoughts, just a story and everything feels directionless.
I'm looking for guidance, support and afterward the possibility to exchange with people with a similar experience.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A safe space to explore and work on the realisation of no-self. Someone to guide me and to help confirm where I'm at and what I need to focus on. Someone to call me out when I’m trying to believe my way through instead of looking. Accountability.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been meditating for probably 9 years on and off, the last 4 consistently. Mainly breathing or looking at thoughts.
I have been listening to Joseph Goldstein Insight Hour podcasts and reading about emptiness before finding LU.
I have done my first Vipassana retreat this year and practiced for a few months, but then found this and have recently given up the 2h of Vipassana practice to focus on this instead.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Sorry for the long wait. There are more seekers than guides.


My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[Eileen]

Hi Stacy,

Thank you so much for offering to be my guide, I am very happy to accept! I really appreciate the time and effort you are taking to help me, and others like me, with this.

I confirm I have read the disclaimer.

These are my answers:

How will life change?

Life won’t change, it will keep happening as it always has.

How will you change?

There is no I to change.

What will be different?

There will be less attachment / clinging as things won’t be owned anymore. The “I” stories will be seen through for what they are.

What is missing?

Nothing is missing, everything is already there.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Eileen is fine. I’m in UTC+10, can I ask what time zone you are in?


With love and gratitude,
Eileen

[Anastacia42]

Hi Eileen

Central US time in Texas.

Your expectations are mostly reasonable.


So now what comes up when reading there's no "self " never has been and that it's all just a made up story?

Loving

[Eileen]

Hi Stacey,

So now what comes up when reading there's no "self " never has been and that it's all just a made up story?

There are sensations of warmth and slight pressure in the chest moving up to the throat with a label “anxiety” and then “light anxiety”.
Thoughts arising about looking behind the anxiety, then thoughts about fearing not being able to do so.
Re-reading the sentence there is tingling arising over the whole body, and a slight constriction in the throat labelled “slight anxiety”. More thoughts about looking behind the anxiety, nothing found.
A thought arising that nothing is found because of the knowledge that nothing should be found and not because it is seen.
Focusing on the sensations, trying to look behind. Amusement. The sensation is all there is.
More tingling throughout the body, less constrictions.
Thinking that the previous thought could be incorrect. Thinking they are all just thoughts.
Reading the sentence again, no constriction but a slight feeling of groundlessness.

I tried a few more times during the day and there was either an absence of reaction or similar sensations of constriction labelled anxiety. At times it felt there was no seeing behind the anxiety and at times it felt obvious the sensations and labels were all that was there.

I hope this makes some kind of sense!
With love,
Aline

[Anastacia42]

Very good. You're mostly reporting direct experience of Sensation that is labeled anxiety. There's a pointer for anxiety if you want it, but first this.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[Eileen]

Hi Stacy,

Thank you for the coloured socks example, it is helpful.

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Yes I understand this, DE is what is experienced though the 5 senses + thoughts. Thought content is not DE, for example if I think of a unicorn, the unicorn is not DE.

I'd be happy to hear about the pointer for anxiety!

With Love,
Aline

[Anastacia42]

Good. This is also good as a present moment DE meditation.

Here is an anxiety exercise that focuses a person in the present, and in a part of the brain that cannot do anxiety. Basically, go through each sense and say (or think) "I see/ hear/ feel/ taste/ touch ______________." A minute or two of each and usually anxiety is gone.

I see the couch.
I see the keyboard.
I see the glass. Etc.

I hear the train.
I hear the keys clacking.
I hear my breath. Etc.

I feel the couch under my butt.
I feel my fingers on the keys.
I feel the cold air. Etc.

I taste a metallic taste in my mouth.
I taste the coffee.
I taste the food. Etc.

I smell the humidity in the air.
I smell my husband's shampoo.
I smell the soap. Etc.

As far as I can tell, the only time this doesn't work is when someone won't do it.

Loving,

[Eileen]

Thank you Stacy, that's very powerful indeed!

There was nothing in blue so I didn't write the details of going through this exercise but happy to do so if that was expected.

Much gratitude,
Aline

[Anastacia42]

No, that's great. Let's move on.


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Eileen]

Hi Stacy,

I’ve added below a few lists of observations as asked.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Seeing the forest floor, simply = image/color
Smelling the smell of the forest, simply = smell
Hearing the sounds of steps and leaves rustling, simply = sound
Hearing the sound of the water running in the creek, simply = sound
Seeing the creek, simply = image/color
Feeling the fresh air on my skin, simply = sensations
Hearing the song of the birds, simply = sound
Seeing the trees, simply = image/color

Seeing a plant, simply = image/color
Thinking about a book I have damaged, simply = thought
Hearing voices, simply = sound
Hearing the chicks, simply = sound
Feeling the chair against my back, simply = sensations
Feeling the cold surface on the laptop, simply = sensations
Wondering whether I am doing this exercise correctly, simply = thought
Seeing the chimney, simply = image/color
Feeling the breeze, simply = sensations
Hearing the wind chimes, simply = sound

Touching the cupboard handle, simply = sensations
Hearing the cupboard door opening, simply = sound
Touching a glass, simply = sensations
Hearing the cupboard door closing, simply = sound
Smelling the wooden smell of the cupboard, simply = smell
Touching the lemon, simply = sensations
Smelling the lemon, simply = smell
Hearing the sparkling water bottle opening, simply = sound
Hearing the water falling into the glass, simply = sound
Hearing the bottle being closed, simply = sound
Feeling the cold drink in my mouth, simply = sensations
Tasting the lemon, simply = taste
Hearing voices in the garden, simply = sound
Thinking the water heater is not beeping, simply = thought
Wondering what to do next, simply = thought

With Love,

[Anastacia42]

Excellent. You've got it.


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[Eileen]

Hi Stacy,

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

I am sitting on the bed
I am hearing the vacuum cleaner
I am feeling pressure where my ankles are crossed
I am feeling the pillow against my back
I am thinking the pillow is comfortable
I am hearing my fingers typing
I am seeing my fingers typing
I am looking at the keyboard
I am thinking I like the sound it makes when I type
I am hearing birds singing
I am seeing the leaves moving outside
I am seeing the garden
I am thinking it is nice and cool inside
I am hearing the cicadas
I am feeling the coolness of the laptop under my wrists
I am smelling clean linen
I am tasting coffee and chocolate
I am feeling a tingling in my feet
I am looking at the time
I am thinking “7 minutes left”
I am feeling air against my nostrils
I am seeing my belly rising
I am feeling warmth where my arms are resting against my body
I am hearing an unidentified sound
I am hearing the chicks chirping
I am closing my eyes
I am seeing blackness
I am opening my eyes
I am smelling cool air
I am stretching my neck
I am focusing on the sensations in the body
I am feeling tingling in the hands and arms
I am feeling an itch on the base of my throat
I am scratching my throat
I am feeling a tingling and warm sensation on my throat
I am feeling tired
My eyes are feeling heavy
My scalp is feeling itchy
I am itching my scalp
I am hearing the rustling of my fingers against my hair and scalp
I am hearing the vacuum
I am looking at the bed
I am feeling my feet brushing against each other
I am hearing my husband walking
I am seeing my husband coming over
I am feeling the bed move

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

Sitting on the bed
Hearing the vacuum
Feeling tingling on the head
Feeling itching on the neck
Seeing fingers type
Seeing the keyboard
Hearing the sound of fingers typing
Hearing the cicadas
Tasting coffee and chocolate
Feeling an itch behind the ear
Scratching behind the ear
Seeing the screen
Feeling an itch on the jaw
Scratching the jaw
Closing the eyes
Seeing blackness
Opening the eyes
Breathing
Feeling the air go through the nostrils
Feeling warmth where the ankles cross
Feeling tingling where the ankle cross
Thinking this is easier now
Seeing the sunlight on the bed
Feeling warmth on the back
Looking at the fingers resting on the keyboard
Checking the time
Watching the belly rise
Watching the belly fall
Smelling the scent of clean linen
Looking at the screen
Feeling the breath in the throat
Looking at the roses
Looking at the garden
Looking at the blue sky
Hearing the cicadas
Thinking the vacuum is loud
Hearing a car pass
Seeing a bag
Hearing the sound of metal against metal
Feeling tingling in the head
Feeling tingling in the eyes
Thinking I am tired
Hearing a voice
Speaking
Looking at the time
Hearing the vacuum sound grow faint
Looking at the curtains
Looking at a puzzle
Feeling the chest rise
Seeing the chest fall
Moving a finger on a key

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second version seems a bit truer than the other, more factual. It feels like the other is more of an interpretation.

2. What is here without labels?

Without labels what is left is the raw experience.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels affect the experience. Reading the result of the second exercise feels very different from reading the result of the first one. Reading the second one feels lighter, reading the first one there’s an attachment, thoughts arising to judge what is written because it is “me”.
Outside of this exercise, I feel very differently saying “my house” or “a house”. When saying “my house”, there’s a warm sensation in the chest and jaw that is labelled pride and happiness, when saying “a house” that sensation is not there, even if I think of the same object.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

When reading the result of the first exercise I can feel some tension in the belly and the jaw.


With Love,

[Anastacia42]

Mostly great, but let's look at labels.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with something called "reality." But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like "good" and "bad" are inherent characteristics of "things." But actually, they are not.


When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?


Loving,

[Eileen]

Hi Stacy,

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Image/color: red word
Thought: green (from reading the word)

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

It is the red color that is experienced. Green is only experienced as a thought, not as a color.

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

No, there is no one-to-one correspondence. Like here the green label is used but red is experienced.

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Yes, the green color is suggested but only the red color is present.

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

Green is only experienced through thought while reading the word, it is just a word label on the red color experience.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No, the color doesn't change in any way.

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The labels don't have any effect on reality.


With Love,