I was sent here by Vince

[KyuSeong]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The avenues of identification are endless. A name, a body, a thought pattern, a feeling, a spiritual practice, a lineage, a past, a future, even a belief in non dual teachings. No real inherent self, is that the identification to any of this is ineffective and generate immense suffering. Realization is to see that this activity for what it is.

What are you looking for at LU?
I came here at Vince Shubert's suggestion that I might be able to guide people. I'm looking to help, but also to be helped by people more experienced than me in this process. I am ready to further the inquiry.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't really have a clear expectation from a guided conversation. The nature of self has been seen, so I'm not in need of guidance. However, the post-awakening process is still happening and I would like some guidance and help on that process.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Until last year, spiritual seeking was present for about 12 years. This included thousands of hours of meditation, a lot of philosophical inquiry, shadow work, somatic practices, energy practices, psychedelic experiences, non-dual inquiry. This lead to many awakening experiences, but also a lot of cravings and delusions from my interpretations of these experiences. Last year, a more significant shift happened and the way self was processed changed. I'm now in an integration phase where selfing does appear, peaks, and then is released.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, I trust you & Vince that you've seen. For the record here, would you mind answering these questions briefly?

Your answers will be shared with other guides who may have questions.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660



1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Loving

[KyuSeong]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

The separate self doesn't exist as it seems. When thoughts collapse, no separation from what is is possible. What seems to exist is the illusion that something is separate through thought. When examined, only thought is discovered. It is what happens when verbally and non verbally I am is transformed into I am X. That X is only a thought. No separate entity can be discovered in direct experience. In that sense, there is no self.
I am seems to be prior to my examination, my doubts, my inquiry. It simply is and is self-evident. It is not found in any objects and cannot rest anywhere in particular. It is not the product of a process. It is not acquired nor lost. It exists before I label it to be existing or not existing, as existence is just a label. It is prior to any realization.
So to answer, no separate self exists, never existed and never will exist. However, what remains when the separate self drops is the I am that neither exists nor doesn't exist. Nothing can be said about it without creating illusions.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

On a conceptual level, a separate self is a concept. A mere thought. Thought can lead to illusions when they are believed to be a substitute for reality. Me seems to point towards something, and whatever that something is is our identification: I am this name, I am this job, I am this body, I am this value system, I am this practice, I am this religion/spiritual path, I am the universe, I am God, I am nothing, etc, etc. However none of those thoughts are other than a thought. When actually examined in direct experience, none of those can be found without excluding some other aspects of experience: the identification is ineffective, and needs constant reinforcement to stay alive. This is one of the many ways the self-concept generates struggle and suffering.
However, understanding this on an intellectual level is not enough. We actually need to become conscious of the deeper patterns of the self-delusion. One of the core mechanism is the belief that it is possible to separate from what is. What is is what is. It came to be because of conditions and cannot be avoided. This avoidance generates tremendous suffering and operate in a complex, multi-layered way. Most of what is avoided doesn't even exist: a bad self-concept, a story about the world and people. And we can go on whole journeys trying to fix, to heal, to grow it away. A spiritual journey is such a journey. Then, even the teachings about self-realization can be used to reinforce patterns of avoidance. But the avoidance is ultimately ineffective, reality has a way to shine despite our illusions. That unknown territory is what we are afraid of, and is the ground of self-belief.
In my experience, selfing is still operational and emerges from time to time. Selfing emerged out of conditions and has a momentum of its own. Trying to fix the separate self is another selfing mechanism. But every selfing episode is a wonderful opportunity to discover something unexamined.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I didn't participate in dialogue, but I can talk about my own trajectory. In my present experience, I do not feel in a certain way about this. This might change if I'm engaged with selfing, in which case I might feel afraid, angry, shameful or guilty. I used to be fascinated but very afraid about this. I had a lot of hopes as well, but inevitably the disillusionment came.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was a story of jealousy. My ex was flirting with a guy. A body contraction came and a sense of suffering. When examined stories of past childhood abandonment, stories about how it is not safe to lose the connection with someone, etc came to be examined. I was helped by Vince's group and could see through it. It was then released.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

> Decision
A decision is what happens when my thoughts seems to be at the origin of actions. In a deeper way, a decision could be said to have formed from reality itself, but takes time to get itself known as a thought.
Recently, a decision to leave the community I live in came to mind. It seemed to be a result of growing dissatisfaction and reactivity. I came to the conclusion that the place was not the right place for me. However, it seems that knowing so no decision was really taking place. One morning, I just knew that I would leave. If I really look at it, it would seem that the decision itself had nothing to do with my reactions. It could be said a decision is simply when we realize that the pattern of reality has changed, and all the reactive process of the mind around it.
> Intention
An intention. It is a future oriented thought. It is a statement of the orientation of our thought patterns in the present moment. It can reflect the needs of the organism, but also the desires of the separate self. It differs from a goal because in it is the knowledge of the lack of control, it is simply the description of the willingness to orient towards something without knowing how and if it will lead to the desired result.
In my recent experience leading groups, I observed that creating a safe space where people are vulnerable leads to the loosening of the reactive patterns. I realized that connection is one way of liberation. That created the intention to examine the relationship between awakening and deep connection between people. The intention do not create any action of itself, it is just a statement of what seems to be the current orientation which may or may not result to actions.
Maybe an intention is just clarity about the current selfing.
> Free will
Free will is an illusion created by the belief in the separate self. By free will, it is usually meant: I'm in control. Which really means: I can control myself and reality through my thoughts. On the other hand, free will could be said to be the will of the Self, or what reality freely is. Of course what is and what is willed in this case are one and the same. So maybe it is total control or free will. What emerges emerges freely without any opposition.
I can't retrieve any memories of free will or find it in direct experience. It seems that it was all necessary. Maybe it was the striving for freedom, as in my spiritual journey that was my "experience" of free will, albeit in the future oriented thoughts. I wanted to be free of the separate self/suffering that appeared as an obstacle to my freedom. If I do this meditation, this practice, follow this teaching, then I will truly be free from myself. But this was yet another form of selfing.
> Choice
A lot of the things I wrote about decision applies also here. Choice is a tricky one, but is an illusion nonetheless. If "choice is an illusion" is merely a thought, then it can be used to do some serious bypassing. However it can be realized. Choice seems to be the result of a decision. The moment when the direction of experience gets still for a time. But did I choose to choose? No. A choice appeared. Often, choices are made before we can accept them or become conscious of them. So who makes the choice?
A recent memory is when I chose to withdraw from a festival I was planning on participating. When I realized that I couldn't make it financially speaking, I stopped and had a reaction. At the end of the process I chose to withdraw from going. It seems to me that the process were more of the dropping of resistance to the choice.
> Control
Control is the illusion that thought can be used to influence ourselves or events. In this sense, control doesn't exist. But the striving for control does exist: if I do my morning routine, if I follow this teaching, if I think positively, if I am nice enough, If I do X and Y, if I am loving and compassionate, etc, etc. A striving for control is an expectation about the future, no more no less. And it is just a thought. No control can be found in the present, things simply appear, but I may maybe find control in the future.
A good example for me would be money. If I had enough money, then I would. That is the illusion of control. Even if I had the money, I'm not the author of actions. More actions may emerge, but it will emerge as part of reality's expression, not as my control.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Do things happen at all? Something seems to happen when I compare a memory to what is present, that is when I create the illusion of time. But here, everything is as it is. Differences are illusions created by the mind: it seems that there is something different happening, that there is a separate self that has a body, a story and a destiny that this separate self is separate from a thing called the world, with its objects. On the other hand, you could say that reality is pure happening: that it is never the same and yet remaining as it is.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I really find this question interesting. Just like choice, saying that there is no responsibility can be used to bypass, as an avoidance mechanism. I am not responsible therefore I can avoid this, or do this, etc. That's just control under mascarading as wisdom. However, if there is no decision, intention, free will, choice and control, what is the meaning of responsibility?
I may be responsible: the needs of the body, the emotional needs of the separate self, the needs of the beings all depends on my actions to be fulfilled. However, who is doing those actions? Actions are done by themselves. Without striving to be a responsible person, there is responsibility that emerges out of myself. What can be looked at is how patterns of behavior often hides identification.
Another way of looking at it is that there seems to be an inherent desire for the wellfare of all beings in my "self". A responsibility here could be to allow this compassionate nature to exist and to express itself, therefore to look into where reality seems to be obstructed.
Ultimately, when selfing is here, a responsibility to look into it is present. When selfing dissolves, no responsibility remains.

Anything to add?

No! That was a lot of thinking, it's quite tiring haha.

[Anastacia42]

Oh dear. I asked you to answer these briefly. Those were not meant to be answered from thought, but from looking.

It's 4 am. I don't know whether to read all of that thinking or ask you to rewrite it.

Normally, I world have given you the following.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



I'll write again worn I wake up.

Loving,

[KyuSeong]

Hey of course. I had a look at those, but thinking is required to write words. Otherwise, I'm just left speechless. All of what I wrote I derive from direct experience. Would you like me to try again in a different way?

[KyuSeong]

Let me try again.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. There never was but seemed to be.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Right now, some selfing is present as a reaction. "I took the time to write those messages and now they want me to try again". The thought "it should be otherwise" is present. Then this changes into anger and frustration: a thought that it shouldn't be this way + body contractions.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It is okay to see this, no particular feelings are present about it. Some selfing is happening and its okay. When I started to write my first answers, I also felt nothing in particular about it.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

This frustration! But it's already dissolving.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

There is no decision in my direct experience right now.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

There is the intention to answer those questions again looking more simply from direct experience. It seems that it is happening without me deciding to have an intention.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

No free will is experienced right now.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

There is no choice in my present experience right now.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

No sense of control is present in my direct experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

I don't know! it seems that when a thought is believed in, things seems to happen.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

The sense of responsibility to give clear answers is present right now. But when I look more closely, there is simply the answering of those questions.

6) Anything to add?

Not this time! You are right, it's much easier go to simple!

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

I've shared your answers with Vince. Stay tuned.

Normally, I'd share it with other guides, but the first set is, as you said at the end, just a lot of thinking. The second set is full of anger & some questions aren't answered.

While you wait, please browse blue name threads in the forum to get a better sense of how we work here.

Thank you

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Vince replied. Let's see if we can get you prepared to guide others.

I can't set you loose to guide until you can follow instructions - I asked for *brief* answers in my first post & you wrote a whole book's worth of thinking. Then when I pointed that out, you got angry & frustrated & skipped some of the questions.

First, here is what i normally send as a first post. Please follow the instructions in it. Other guides sometimes do it differently.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?



We will discuss anger & frustration once we cover some basics.

Loving

[KyuSeong]

Hi Stacy,

You can guide me of course. You can call me Kyu. I would imagine that there was some misunderstanding here. I just want to help, but I understand that there must be discernment on your side. It's all good on my side. I'll let you guys decide what to do with me.

I have read the disclaimer and the FAQ.

Here are my answers to the 4 questions.

How will life change?

I would imagine that life would change or stay the same as much as needed, but that I would maybe navigate them from a more stable sense of peace.

How will you change?

I hope that the process will help the remaining selfing mechanism to be dissolved. It's helpful to have someone else for that.

What will be different?

Nothing fundamental. I would imagine the period between selfing episodes becoming larger over time.

What is missing?

I wouldn't say something is fundamentally missing. I would say maybe the comfort of being less reactive more consistently.

[KyuSeong]

Oh and I'm in CEST

[Anastacia42]

Thanks.

Hi Kyu.Yes, I'm not really guiding you. Just showing you the process the way i do it. If we had done that, we might have saved you the effort of writing long answers & skipping questions.

It appears you may be able to discern thinking arising from the content of thought. We often use these pointers for that:

Go ahead & do a set of these. Clients often fail to follow the instructions precisely.


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[KyuSeong]

Hey Stacy,
I will be on vacation for a week so I won't touch the computer too much. On my way back I will answer to you.
Thank you for your time, I appreciate you.

[Anastacia42]

Thank you for telling me.

If you'd like to redo those first 6 questions as Vince suggested, before you woke up & after you woke up, that is fine.

The goals are

1. To confirm your seeing there is no self (the 6 questions])

2. Help you address anger & frustration

3. Prepare you to guide other clients if you still want to.

Much love,