I am so much more

[maya8383]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I understand, intellectually, that there is no 'I' who is in the center of reality, and everything that's happening on the outside i.e. life circumstances are not happening to me, but they're just happening. and reality is what it is. It just is. That stated, I haven't seen through self directly yet so I can only speak about it from the mind.

What are you looking for at LU? I am looking for the truth. I'm looking for the kensho. I feel like I am stuck on this journey of awakening and that I need clear pointers directed to me specifically. I got tired of watching youtube videos, reading books, doing meditations, nothing has hit so far and I still get entageled in thoughts and reactions. Although I do notice my reactions are subsiding over the past few years and, my anxiety is on much lower levels, but apart from recognition that I got, that there's so much more to life and that there is actually an end to suffering (which was a big relief itself) I haven't yet experienced any big shift so far. Apart from noticing synchronicities now and then, which I am grateful for, but they're like one-time events that get me short lasting excitement.

Over the past year, my desire to get the actual guide is growing in me, I feel it could help me realize no-self. For me, this awakening journey is everything, I go to bed with it, I wake up with it, since the recognition that I got, in June 2024, when a youtube video on enlightenment popped up out of knowhere and it really resonated and planted the seed. Since then, I only watch and read about it, having it always with me, no matter what I do or where I am, I keep inquiring into who am I, where am I and who is experiencing whatever I am experiencing at time, trying to find a doer, a seeker, spending a lot of time in silence, walking in the nature, but don't feel like I moved much, feel like there's something that's so obvious, in front of my face, but I just can't see it. I can't see through thoughts.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? As I answered in the previous question, I'd be grateful for the pointers that could help me see through self.

Since 2020, I had many major dispruptions in my life: lost house in earthquake, lost both my parents, got a burnout and quit my whole carrier as a programmer in IT industry, relocated with my partner, in the wild, very different life I'm living now, much more calmer and quieter, almost all my old friends are gone from my life, I've gone through a lot of therapy and shadow work to help me with seeing and dealing with the generational trauma I lost a lot of weight, changed diet, got off from alcohol, weed, screens an all the distractions that I don't need anymore to keep me alive. Meditations and nature are my fuel now, but I know there's so much more, I am excited to get to know who I am, finally, as a lot of 'who I am not' masks - dropped already big time.

To sum up, my life was a big rolercoaster, espeacially last 6 years when illusions started to drop, one by one, slowly - so many aspects of who I am changed, sometimes I don't recognize myself, both from the inside and outside, and I feel like am ready to drop whatever has left of my story completely and see reality as it is, finally. That's what I've always wanted deep inside, now I know that for sure. I just didn't believe that enlightenment thing is true, I didn't even know it existed. Now I'm 38 years old and so grateful that it came to me.

Now that I do not have a lot of distractions in my life, and because of shadow and trauma work I did and am still doing, I see my patterns clearly, they're dropping slowly but surely over time. Honestly, I'm tired of all the shadow work, I feel like I learned and changed a lot, and there's not much left to change if I do not see through self... I still suffer, it is very uncomftorable, it is a constant background feeling that something is off, a constant dread and fear of life. Without many distractions it is much more intense now. I expect nothing but truth and direct poniting.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I discovered enlightenment and spiritual awakening in 2024 by watching one youtube video that popped up one evening. It just clicked. It resonated so much, took me days to remove the doubt thoughts that were convincing me that's fake and that there's no such thing as spiritual awakening :) Just a thought that there is a possible potential relief from the constant pain and dread I feel in the background, made me so excited and curious and I knew that would become my top 1 priority in life.

Since then, I am very passionate about it so I read books, listen and watch to different guides on a daily basis, I started meditating around same time, but did not hav any major shifts during meditations, I don't feel like I am going anywhere with them so I started inquiring, but have so many doubts when I ask a question... my mind loves to question if the inquiry is formed correctly and such tricks...

One thing stands out - whenever I her from the guides 'look closely' I struggle to grasp that so much. I do not understand how to look, where to put my attention... But I guess that's something I expect too from a guided conversation :)

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?

11

[Anastacia42]

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

Sometimes the site goes down due to bot attacks. It has been doing that lately. Just try again later. It will be back. They're working on it.


If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[maya8383]

Hi Stacy, nice to meet you. I would love for you to be my guide, thank you!

I read the disclaimer and other link provided, I understand everything and am ready to start this process. I will do my best to post every day or every second day, and if I won't be able to, I will reply with short message to let you know that.

What would you like for me to call you?

You can call me by my first name, Maja😊

What time zone are you in, please?

I'm in the UTC+2 timezone (CEST, Croatia).

How will life change?

I do not expect my life will change - externally. I will keep on doing what I do and being who I am, a friend to my friends, a partner to my partner, that same Maja to my family, neighbours and others.

How will you change?

By seeing through self illusion there won't be 'me' at the centre of life and everything happening which I expect to bring me different and new perspective on life. My biggest expectation is to end suffering, reactions and fear towards life. I do not expect for all of that that to happen over night, but I believe that with the first shift – the process of dismantling can start. I changed so much over the past few years, as I said in my first post. But, now that I'm finally paying attention to myself, I feel even more than before that something is missing from my experience, that no one and nothing from the outside can fill in. By seeing through illusion of self I hope that feeling won't be here anymore.

What will be different?

Honestly, I have no idea. But I'm curious to see. I have a strong desire for turning a new page in life - this might sound like a cliche but I am truly willing to see the truth, no matter what, because I have nothing to lose. I might sound desparate now and maybe I am :) But, nothing that I tried in my life has worked so far, and I lost hope that anything from outside will remove this constant feeling of unease and restlessness. If all this that I call 'my life' is an illusion and mind is running the show in my head for 38 years now and thinking it is somehow in control – I am more than ready to confront whatever belief I need to because I do not trust the mind anymore. But I need guidance for that, and hope that I can get it here, from you :)

What is missing?

Peace is missing. That light feeling in my head and feeling of joy in my heart is missing. It is uncomfortable to live like this, with mind in charge. The more I see it – the more uncomfortable it is.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Maja,

Your expectations are v pretty reasonable. Most people feel more peaceful.

So now what comes up when reading there's no "self " never has been and that it's all just a made up story?

Loving,

[maya8383]

So now what comes up when reading there's no "self " never has been and that it's all just a made up story?

Excitement. Followed by sensations in my belly and just above that area.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Okay.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[maya8383]

Hi Stacy

I am clear now about the difference between knowing which comes from the mind and seeing which can only be looked at in my actual experience in the moment through seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling and thoughts arising. So, without going into mind and story, just looking at what's right here for me. You explained it very well.

[Anastacia42]

Great. Now practice that.


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[maya8383]

Hi Stacy

I spent the whole day paying attention to what was in my direct experience. Here is my list:

1. Sitting on a bench
Seeing a tree, simply = image
Touching the bench with hands, simply = sensation
Hearing a truck in distance, simply = sound
Hearing a bird chirping, simply = sound
Thought arising about a friend, simply = thought

2. Cuddling my dog
Feeling the hair of dog on my hands, simply = sensation
Touching dog's paws, simply = sensation
Looking at dog's muzzle, simply = image
Smelling dog's paws, simply = smell

3. Sitting on a meadow
Touching a plant, simply = sensation
Looking at the plant, simply = image
Smelling the plant, simply = smell
Looking at a forrest, simply = image
Hearing a pear drop from a tree, simpy = sound
Thought about eating a pear, simply = thought
Tasting the pear, simply = taste
Feeling warmth of the un on my skin, simply = sensation

4. Making lunch
Squeezing ingredients in a bowl with hands, simply = sensation
Smelling mixture in the bowl, simply = smell
Tasting mixture in the bowl, simply = taste
Thought about heating up oil in a pan = thought
Hearin hum of airfryer, simply = sound

5. Time in garden
Looking at strawberries, simply = color
Thought about eating a strawberry, simply = thought
Eating a strawberry, simply = taste
Pressing scissors firmly in my hand, simply = sensation
Smelling tomato plant, simply = smell


There were many other moments throughout the day like this, I only listed a few here…

The activities I find easiest to notice are those I label as color/image and sound. I have a much harder time noticing thoughts arising. Actually, I do notice thoughts, but often only with a delay. I realize afterward what I was thinking in a moment that has already passed. Or a thought is automatic and simply slips by unnoticed, which happens quite often.
For example, when I’m cooking, I do many things automatically, for example - picking up a knife, turning on the stove, taking a bowl, etc. So I don’t even notice whether there is a thought arising as I perform that particular action. Is there?

Thank you!

[Anastacia42]

Very good.

It is most important to separate the fact that a thought arose from the content. This is because "self" is nothing but a thought.


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Particularly a gut feeling. Look closely. It's there.

Loving,

[maya8383]

Hi Stacy,

Below are my observations.

Using the word “I”:
I am breathing.
I am looking at a pen.
I am looking at a lamp.
I am feeling my feet touch the floor.
I am touching the chair handles with my hands.
I am tapping the floor with my feet.

Without the word “I”:
Looking at a wall.
Touching the chair.
Looking at the window.
Feeling feet.
Feeling butt on the chair.
Swaying on the chair.
Feeling light pressure in the head.
Touching leg.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

It feels like describing experience without the word “I” is more true. More natural, I would say. Whenever I would describe experience with “I”, it would feel more like efforting or doing, like I am using more energy during the experience, hence I felt slight heaviness in my belly.

I would never notice that if I was not comparing it with the other 10 minutes of practice when I was not using “I”. That one felt more natural, more direct. It felt like an extra step of adding the word “I” wasn't necessary. Moreover, it creates this somewhat heavy feeling throughout the body. It's not really heaviness, but I noticed that it feels a little more like trying when I use the word “I” than when I don't. If that makes sense. Very interesting.

2. What is here without labels?

Veeery good question. I feel excitement, light tingling in my whole belly when I feel into that question, over and over again. The question made me stop for a slight moment and the answer landed - just experience. But the mind is very persistent and takes me to the head as soon as I feel into “just experience”.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They definitely affect the experience, based on what I noticed in my answers above. I've never questioned that before. Wow.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Particularly a gut feeling. Look closely. It's there.

Yeah, the differences were subtle, but they were there. The mind is full of doubts now and saying I'm delusional, but there was definitely a feeling of subtle heaviness in my belly and just above that area when using the word “I”. It was light, very subtle, but there was a light feeling without using “I”. So yeah, it was definitely a more relaxing experience without using “I”.

I now feel openness and excitement all the time (in my belly, throat, and head — my three most active spots), since I dove into question 2. :)

Thank you

[Anastacia42]

Excellent. Maja, except labels don't affect the experience. Let's do a couple more pointers.


Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with something called "reality." But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like "good" and "bad" are inherent characteristics of "things." But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?


Loving

[maya8383]

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Seeing color red is experienced.

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

Color red is experienced.

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

Appears they are not in one-to-one correspondence with reality, because the word label to look at is 'GREEN', but in my actual experience I see red color when looking at that label. It could've been named 'WHATEVER' and my experience would still be red color, so it doesn' matter what word I use to label it. Labeling does not affect experience, I see that now.

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

It doesn't matter what they suggest, mind could expect actual color green because it is labeled with word GREEN, but that's not the actual experience, so it could have been labeled as 'WHATEVER' or 'PURPLE', the experience would still be red color.

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

Green is just a word label on the experience of red color.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Redness is not affected when label replaced with different word. I stated the same above with my examples 'WHATEVER' or 'PURPLE'.

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Redness does not become either "good" or "bad". Labels really do not have effect on reality. Interesting. Thank you for clarifying that, Stacy.

But, I am still confused on example from yesterday, where I was labeling experience "I am sitting on a chair" vs. "Sitting on a chair". In that example, different labeling (not using word "I" instead of using it) caused different experience (feeling relaxing instead of tightening). I am apparently missing something obvious here… Could you clear up my confusion, please?

[Anastacia42]

Yes. That's the next pointer.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies. I'm sure I've talked about this.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[maya8383]

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Yeah, I remember one big lie I told my parents, when I got caught by our class teacher smoking a cigarette in the school toilet when I was 15 years old. I got a written reprimand, and I insisted to my parents that I hadn't been smoking, that I had just been holding a cigarette for a friend.

What is found?

Now, when I remember this, I can sense a very clear tightness in my belly. It comes as an impulse and then spreads above the belly, then it tightens up inward.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I've also watched one politician's video now that I am disgusted by, and the sensation of tightness in my belly was the same, even more so as it spread through my throat and to my head. My head heated up in the end.

I listed more examples, but I deleted those, a lot of unnecessary stories, but they all boil down to the exact same contraction feeling in my belly, and sometimes up the throat and in the head. When it comes to my head, it is hot and pressing.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I."

Yeah, it doesn't feel relaxing or peaceful at all. Feels quite the opposite when I'm telling or recalling a lie.

Do you see that?

Yeah, thank you for the thorough guidance on this one. I did a lot of somatic work over the past three years, so I am somewhat in touch with my body sensations, and I can express most of them using words. I don't feel the heart area as much, but belly, throat, head - always.

And now it's clear to me why I feel that contraction when I add the label "I am" before actions... Because it's a lie. Kind of hit me deep. Wow. That's so subtle. Wow. And that felt expanding, felt opening in plexus and chest area. Feels like truth.