Weary seeker ready to see there is no gate

[Jellycat]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
You help people see through the illusion that the little I, we believe ourselves to be (run by thoughts and feelings) is not actually there at all. As it is never actually in our experience and is an illusion.

What are you looking for at LU?
To find liberation. I had a traumatic childhood and have done a lot of shadow work. But now there a deep sense of a light within a deep peace that wants to be at the forefront not in the background. I want to be in the world and moving through the world, but from intuition and sensing from spirit/true nature, not driven by the ego. I want to serve and be of service in the world. To fullfill my potential - as in shine my light in the world.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Honest directness, clarity, respect for experience. Patience and kindness along the way. Im very self critical and have a lot of self doubt so really appreciate a gentler, more compassionate approach. Having said that, I do really appreciate and honour truth. There is also awareness there, that it is probably my ego that is critical and self doubts so needs to be challenged.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I journal and do self enquiry most days. I also speak to god and have a devotional aspect to my self enquiry.
I first started seeking with earnest after a dark night of the soul when I was 23. I'm now 50. Starting out with self development and then moving to a more spiritual path. A great deal of body work and shadow work. A sense of needing to clear my vessel after the first awakening - up and out (falling away of all thoughts, all reactivity just a profound deepening silence and peace) thrn the second awakening was down and in (experienced as spirit descending into the body) there were thrn a lot of downloads but a sense that they couldn't be brought through as cleanly as I'd like because thr ego always seemed to hijack them. There been a deep sense of a calling since the first awakening and I'm tired of my egoic self being the reason I'm not moving into that calling with grace and ease so I can help humanity.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Noro]

Hello Jellycat,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.
My name is Rowena and I am happy to be your guide, I am sorry you have had to wait a while. Please let me know what you would like me to call you.

1. Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

2. Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

and "Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)

6. Please answer all questions individually, not in a bundle, as this will assist us both in having a clear dialogue. Also it is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

7. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers. Here's a video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Throughout this exploration the questions that I would like you to answer are written in blue text. But please check and answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text!!

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. And I will do so as well.
What time zone are in? I am in Belgium which is CET
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.




STARTING THE ENQUIRY: EXPECTATIONS

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open. Only fear and expectations can prevent clear seeing of no self.

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What seems to be missing in your life right now?


Warm regards,
Rowena

[Jellycat]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you for being my guide. I'm deeply grateful for your guidance.

I'm in London (BST) so an hour behind.

I will answer separately below.

Warm regards
Jennie

[Jellycat]

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

That I won't have an 'I' reference point anymore. So there will still be life happening - sensations, experiences, emotions and thoughts but they won't be linked to an I claiming it.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I suspect at first that may feel destabilising? But hopefully that settles over time and then life can be experienced more fully in the moment and how it actually is.

3. What do you want not to happen?

To not be able to function properly. I have a family, children and a business, so not having motivation and the ability to function normally would be a struggle.

4. What are you hoping for?

Less internal struggle. There's a strong connection to spirit, a greater intelligence to life, and I'm hoping that the insights and intuition that come through, can be honoured and acted on without the noise of the ego.

5. What seems to be missing in your life right now?

An ability in my life and career to act on my insights, intuition and purpose without great self doubt.

What's also missing is a more peaceful environment at home and an inability to be a more neutral loving presence in a family that struggles and is divided. I have a family I love, but there's a great deal of suffering and division between other members of the family. I'm not expecting anyone else or the exterior world to change, but I'm hoping that without my own illusionary sense of I, I can at least navigate these challenges with a greater sense of peace and grace. Allowing life to unfold without the need for it to be different. And perhaps, one day others may become curious enough to look for themselves. This isn't expected more just sharing that it would be a lovely unfolding.

[Jellycat]

Sorry rowena, I've just realised I think you meant to press submit after each answer rather than all in one submit. I'll do that next time.

[Noro]

Hello Jenny, It great to meet you here!

Sorry rowena, I've just realised I think you meant to press submit after each answer rather than all in one submit. I'll do that next time.

No this is perfect, and you've got the hang of the quote function straight away which is really helpful for us both in order to follow the thread.

That I won't have an 'I' reference point anymore. So there will still be life happening - sensations, experiences, emotions and thoughts but they won't be linked to an I claiming it.

I just want to point out to you that this is an expectation. There is thought about an apparent "I" that is envisaging that in the future it won't be there any more, and it won't be claiming anything. This is exactly what we are going to be exploring, and so we are off to a great start!

To not be able to function properly. I have a family, children and a business, so not having motivation and the ability to function normally would be a struggle.

This is an entirely natural fear arising from thoughts based on the imagining of the expectations regarding the loss of an imagined "I", they go together.

What's also missing is a more peaceful environment at home and an inability to be a more neutral loving presence in a family that struggles and is divided. I have a family I love, but there's a great deal of suffering and division between other members of the family. I'm not expecting anyone else or the exterior world to change, but I'm hoping that without my own illusionary sense of I, I can at least navigate these challenges with a greater sense of peace and grace. Allowing life to unfold without the need for it to be different. And perhaps, one day others may become curious enough to look for themselves. This isn't expected more just sharing that it would be a lovely unfolding.

Thanks for sharing this. Please know that you are always welcome to share what is arising for you in your daily life that is causing some challenge or other. We can explore and unpack together.

Now lets get started!

COLORED SOCKS - HOW TO LOOK CLEARLY
I will probably be referring to this throughout our inquiry as a reminder.

There is a BIG difference between knowing/believing that there is no independent separate self, and seeing that there is no separate self .

If you can’t see for yourself directly, you cannot describe what you see in your own words.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks (or underwear) you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what color they are. Or,
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what color they ACTUALLY are!

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at, and seeing what is actually going on right here and right now, which is your Direct Experience.

DIRECT OR ACTUAL EXPERIENCE IS
Seeing (colors/shapes)
Hearing (sounds)
Feeling or Sensing (body sensations, both internal and external)
Tasting
Smelling
and
The activity of thinking (but not the content of thought, we let go of any narrative.

Direct experiencing is the immediacy that happens before thought arrives to describe, interpret, explain it or give it meaning. The moment we attempt to communicate experience we introduce concepts. We then respond or identify with those concepts. Then that experience of responding gives birth to more stories (concepts) to which we respond and so on…


DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF DAILY ACTIVITIES

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities as simply colors, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations, thoughts.

So for example, when having breakfast, becoming aware of the experiencing of a cup of coffee would unfold like this:

Seeing a cup; simply= colors
Smelling coffee; simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup; simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee; simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee; simply = sound
Thinking about drinking the coffee; simply = thought

Please explore any simple daily activities that can be broken down into these categories of Direct Experience and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

The point here is to understand the difference between what is actually being experienced (Direct Experience or DE) and not what is interpretation (Conventional experience or CE).

Please post several of your own observations in lists exactly like the one above.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[Jellycat]

Hi rowen,

I didn't see your message until after work, but after initial resistance, fully enjoyed the direct experience of life. This was surprisingly hard and yet enjoyable. Is movement allowed or a label?

Relaxing after dinner
Watching clouds moving; simply = shapes & colours
Birds flying; simply = movement & colours
Tree blowing in the wind; simply = colours and shapes
(The mind is frustrated - simply it's a tree! Just say that and it covers it all - but my direct experience knows that the label does not describe the experience and continue )
Shoulders tight; simply = sensation
Dogs nails click clack on the floor; simply = sound
Daughters music; simply = sound
Tummy rising and falling; simply = movement
Feeling tired; simply = Sensation?
(This one confused me. What knows it's tired. I can't locate what this label refers to or where it is. How do I know I feel tired. Lack of energy in the body. Where is the sensation. I can't locate a place. Non localised sensation is confusing to the mind)

Making a cup of tea
The cold feel of the China; simply = sensation
The clange of the cup on the worktop; simply = sound
Walking across the kitchen floor; simply = sensation
The coconut milk carton; simply = colours and shape
The rough feel of the tea bag; simply = sensation
The spoon clanging and stirring; simply = movement & sound
Drinking the tea; simply = taste

[Jellycat]

So sorry Rowena missed of the last letter. Have a lovely evening.

Warm regards
Jennie

[Noro]

Good morning Jenny,

Is movement allowed or a label?

This is kind of a tricky one, because obviously we don't navigate everyday reality discounting what we are seeing and sensing. In the visual field it would be simply seeing, because each second of NOW is a frame, like in those cartoon frames.
In the field of body sensation, i.e. walking, that would be simply sensation as all attention would be on the sensations themselves, not the passing objects.
In the sound field again, that would be simply sound, even if it were seen that movement was causing the sound.
Does that make sense to you?


Tree blowing in the wind; simply = colours and shapes

(The mind is frustrated - simply it's a tree! Just say that and it covers it all - but my direct experience knows that the label does not describe the experience and continue )

Wonderful!! It is so great to see the mind arguing when exploring direct experience. DE slows everything down and the mind is used to shortcuts and trying to speed everything up!
The other thing is that there is never simply a tree, a tree cannot be separated out from its environment except by thoughts labelling "tree" there is a sea of colors, light and dark, within the tree and surrounding the shape labelled 'tree' .... and you turn your head slightly and the visual field continues, always a sea of varying colors and shapes.

(This one confused me. What knows it's tired. I can't locate what this label refers to or where it is. How do I know I feel tired. Lack of energy in the body. Where is the sensation. I can't locate a place. Non localised sensation is confusing to the mind)

Loved your enquiring mind with this one. You are asking the perfect questions. The give away is the word 'feeling' tired.
So the question is "How does "tired" feel"? points to the body where particular sensations and locations can be noted, or not necessarily, and just resting in the feeling of tired. Allowing the body to slump into that.

Even if we say "I am tired" the direction to go would be to sensations. The mind might continue with thoughts about the reason for the tiredness, but that would all be a story. "I am tired" is a here and now thought description of what is being directly experienced in the body.


THOUGHTS - WITH / WITHOUT THE LABEL "I AM" EXPLORATION
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which thoughts add labels to experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper. As with all the exercises going forward make sure you are comfortable and take a few deep breathes in order to be relaxed. This should not be considered just an intellectual exercise, but a kind of whole-body intuitive exercise attentive to the difference in the two perspectives.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots.
For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

1) For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry
I am thinking
I am writing.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

2) Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time drop the “I am” label. Here you can see that experience, in simple language, does not require an experiencer. It can be just as it is without the addition of presumption of a self, of an "I".
For example:

Sitting on a chair,
hearing clock ticking
looking at computer screen
feeling hungry
thinking
writing

3) Finally, try the two together, first say with the "I am" label and next without: I am walking / walking

Pay attention to body sensations, watch what is happening in the body. Really take time to sense the difference. It may be subtle.
What is the body sensation when you add the label "I am ….."?
What is the body sensation without the add-on label of "I am…."?

4) At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Does one feel intuitively 'truer', more spacious, than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without the labels, in your direct experience?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body between the two ways?


Warm regards,
Rowena

[Noro]

Now I am the one to misspell your name, sorry Jennie!! :)

[Jellycat]

This is kind of a tricky one, because obviously we don't navigate everyday reality discounting what we are seeing and sensing. In the visual field it would be simply seeing, because each second of NOW is a frame, like in those cartoon frames.
In the field of body sensation, i.e. walking, that would be simply sensation as all attention would be on the sensations themselves, not the passing objects.
In the sound field again, that would be simply sound, even if it were seen that movement was causing the sound.
Does that make sense to you?

Yes I think so. Because in the now you are seeing it, the movement happens across time, as you said each frame, so the direct experience in the NOW is simply seeing. The action or movement is a result of seeing in each frame.

Last night I was pondering this before bed and thought movement is not the direct experience. Movement is happening externally (watching clouds moving) but the direct experience is as you say seeing, hearing, sensing. Where I struggled was with my own body movement, because my mind said but that is actually movement you are not witnessing out there, its your body experienced in here. But then I enquired is that true. Because i'm not my body, the consciousness/spirit watching life unfold sits back behind all of life, including my body. Which was weird to enquire into.

Yes I understand re a tree. I remember Adyshanti talking about a tree not being seperate from its environment. Which I understood. The air it takes in, and not being able to find a boundary with that , as in there is not boundary to air, the soil it sits on (same - no boundary) and the nutrients it takes up its network underground with all trees (same no boundary). How interlinked it is with all of life and beyond. but im stuck when you said

you turn your head slightly and the visual field continues

Unfortunately I do see the tree as separate to the next bush, the next tree. I dont see them as connected. Ahhhhh I see. It is seperate if I view it as a tree. But if you stay with direct experience of colours and shapes then yes it just continues... ohhh I have a body sensation of feeling odd when I look that way.

Thank you re guidance on I am tired. That makes sense to go to the feeling and sensation in the body and ignore the story.

haha no worries, I wouldn't mind what you called me to be honest!

I shall do the next exercise this evening.

Thank you so much for this guidance Rowena. My mind is always grasping for the next book, the next retreat. Always consuming but never keen to actually slow down and experience life directly. This is so much fun! thank you.

[Noro]

Hi Jennie,

I love your reflections! Looking forward to the next installment!

Have a great day!
Rowena

[Jellycat]

I am driving
I am watching the car infront
I am feeling my foot on the pedal
I am hearing the music
I am walking
I am paying
I am watching the screen.
I am thinking
I am looking at the trees outside the window.
I am hearing the coffee machine
I am hearing laughter
I am pouring my tea
I am stirring my tea
I am hearing the ring doorbell on my phone
I am checking my phone
I am bored
I am waiting for the next thought (awareness of impatience and a fast paced contracted sense of I)
I am consciously relaxing the body
I am consciously slowing down the body and the mind.
I am feeling more peaceful

Typing
Reading
Looking at hands
Drinking tea
Thoughts arising
Sense of calm
Hearing music (hearing vocals as well as instruments)
Hearing chatter
Impulse to rise from chair
Waiting in queue
Thoughts rising
Impatience rising
Speaking
Walking
Sitting back down

I am pouring my tea/pouring my tea
I am writing/writing
I am hearing music/hearing music
I am drinking/drinking
I am noticing the beautiful blue sky/noticing beautiful blue sky

1. Does one feel intuitively 'truer', more spacious, than the other, and If so, which one?

1. It actually feels more natural 'truer' to notice without the I which is surprising.

2. What is here without the labels, in your direct experience?

2. The I am definitely affects the experience. The I am beforehand, makes life and the experience, feel contracted and like a constant stop start to life. When the I am is dropped life feels like a gentle unfolding, one experience flows into the other.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

3. Labels do affect the experience. Hearing music, watching a tree, as much as it's an improvement on I am beforehand, still seems to compartmentalise the direct experience and condense it.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body between the two ways?

1. When I say I am noticing the beautiful blue sky it feels localised. Behind my eyes and there is a sense of an I looking out. When I say noticing beautiful blue sky there is no location in the body. Less sense of a boundary. Feels more fluid and inclusive. More expansion in the body.

[Jellycat]

Visual images come. The 'I' feels like a wound up ball of elastic bands, wrapped around and strangling life's experiences. Without the I, the rubber bands seem to fall away and, despite still having a label - watching a tree, life is definitely experienced more intimately than with the I.

All of the above are true reflections. However I am also noticing - I naturally write I am and then catch myself so the i am is still strong. There's also awareness of, unless an exercise is being carried out, (to focus the attention) the mind and thoughts are still very busy and noisy (it feels more so than normal - intensity to them)

One last reflection if that's ok. It helps to articulate them here. Yesterday I had a heated discussion with my daughter. I noticed feeling very triggered. However afterwards, it seemed odd to me that her words could hold such power. It's hard to articulate, but there was a realisation that words are empty. Effectively she could be saying 'a cow jumped over a fence' and it would have no charge. It isn't the words but the story and thoughts I have internally to what she's saying, that caused the trigger. It didn't necessarily take away the trigger but it seemed to subside quicker.

[Noro]

Hello Jennie,

Visual images come. The 'I' feels like a wound up ball of elastic bands, wrapped around and strangling life's experiences. Without the I, the rubber bands seem to fall away and, despite still having a label - watching a tree, life is definitely experienced more intimately than with the I.

Love the way you express this!

All of the above are true reflections. However I am also noticing - I naturally write I am and then catch myself so the i am is still strong. There's also awareness of, unless an exercise is being carried out, (to focus the attention) the mind and thoughts are still very busy and noisy (it feels more so than normal - intensity to them)

This is also natural. You can keep using the "I am", this is the way we use language, and language is a part of the "illusion". But as you go through this exploration, the words "I am" and our conventional way of talking and referring as if there are actual separate independent 'selves' will seem more and more empty of substance. Understanding the difference between Direct Experience and conventional talking and how it takes us away from that direct immediate contact with life is what is important here.

One last reflection if that's ok. It helps to articulate them here. Yesterday I had a heated discussion with my daughter. I noticed feeling very triggered. However afterwards, it seemed odd to me that her words could hold such power. It's hard to articulate, but there was a realisation that words are empty. Effectively she could be saying 'a cow jumped over a fence' and it would have no charge. It isn't the words but the story and thoughts I have internally to what she's saying, that caused the trigger. It didn't necessarily take away the trigger but it seemed to subside quicker.

This is wonderful. What a great realisation! We will look closer into the beliefs and associations we make through memory and identification as we go along.


Here is an exercise that follows on from the last one:

HOW TO DISTINGUISH WHAT FEELS FREE AND ALIVE (TRUE) FROM WHAT FEELS CONTRACTED (FALSE/UNTRUE/LIE)

We often 'lie' every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes, there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you might have been grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you 'lied', "I'm fine."

In conventional or consensus reality we are not going to be airing everything that is going on in our lives, but it is important that we become aware of our inner state of body sensations. While the body sensations are true, meaning that our direct experience of them is real, the way we interpret them can be misleading.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie. This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is important to notice the body sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body sensations & able to clearly describe them in words. This will help.
Lies can be felt in the upper body, often in the heart, solar plexus or arms, as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed. It feels like relief, like some heavy load has dropped away. You felt that when you did the exercise dropping the words "I am", do you remember?


First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. You don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what body sensations arise as you listen.

Or, even looking at what happens in your body when you have a thought "I should have done ..............." or, "This should / should not have happened................."

Please report back with what body sensations (not interpretations) you felt. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

Warm regards,
Rowena