Papillon

[papillon]

Let's look at the comparison and expectations. It's pretty much the same mechanism:

They had X experience → they know X → I don't have X → therefore they are above me.

This happens both with skills in the physical world and apparent spiritual capabilities.

X gets various names: self-realization, enlightenment, the other shore, various imagined fetters or stages of enlightenment. These are concepts assembled from books and other people's descriptions, which are then simulated - I imagine what they would look like in practice - and suffer because I don't experience the thing I've imagined.

And expectations are inherently about something other than what is presently happening. 'Awakening should feel like the experiences Osho described' - a memory/image of the past is used to construct an imagined future where I eventually should experience this. The imagined future/past state I'm using as the standard does not exist anywhere except as thought.

So there is a thought about their experience + a thought about my deficiency + a hierarchy established between the two. It's imagined as a ladder, with some people on rungs far above me, and I need to see/solve a series of things to reach their level, eventually climbing all the way to the top.

Then the suffering starts:

'They have it. I don't. They're above me. I need to get there.'

But the ladder itself is assembled from memories, descriptions, images and imagined futures.

In spirituality:

'They experienced enlightenment → therefore they know something → therefore I haven't got it and have to work towards it.'

In work:

'They know distributed systems better → therefore they're smarter → therefore I'm an impostor.'

The difference in knowledge can be completely real. Someone genuinely may know something I don't. But the extra leap is the psychological ladder:

'They have something I fundamentally lack, therefore they are above me and I am below them.'

And then I look at the imagined 'me' standing at the bottom of the ladder. What is actually there? Thoughts, sensations, contractions, images, comparisons, expectations. But no separate person standing there.

So there is a ladder, a 'me' at the bottom, and various 'others' at the top - but when looked at directly, there is no ladder and no-one standing on either rung.

And right now, looking for the imagined 'rung at the top' called enlightenment, there is no rung there. There is only a thought/image of one. The ladder is imagined, the destination is imagined, and the 'me' who is supposed to climb it is imagined too.

[graceabounds]

:)

Who is the guide now? Is there any impulse to support others in seeing through these illusions?

That arose naturally here… part of what was next.

[papillon]

There is no separate person who is the seeker, so there is no separate person who is the guide either.

The same thing applies here. I can imagine a hierarchy where there is a guide at the top who has seen something, and a seeker below who needs to be guided there. But if the seeker is not actually found, then what exactly would the separate guide be?

There is no impulse right now to support others in seeing through these illusions. If such an impulse arises, it would just arise naturally, rather than becoming 'me, the awakened person' taking on the role of 'the guide.' That could easily become another costume for the same imagined character.

I can also see how easily this could become another expectation:

"After seeing through no-self, I'm supposed to want to guide others. I don't have that impulse → something is missing → I'm not there yet."

That would just be another ladder.

It also makes me look back at the six years of seeking and the feeling that I needed to somehow save myself, and save or heal other people. But who was I trying to save? Was there actually anyone there who needed saving, separate from the thoughts, sensations, fears and stories appearing? It feels like a game or joke I played on myself, despite the egoic insanity that was seen throughout, how incredibly difficult things were at times, and how humbling the whole experience was.

So perhaps 'who is the guide now?' is the same investigation in reverse: not just looking for a separate seeker here or in other seekers, but looking for a separate guide and finding no separate entity there either.

[graceabounds]

Yes. The word ‘guide’ does carry a thought of one who has a something when there is in fact nothing.
Only a few who cross, guide. There is no expectation of it. I do not own that identity of ‘guide’ but continue to have an impulse to show up here and sit with ‘others’…

Any more ladders to explore here?

[papillon]

No more ladders. Nothing is missing, no sense of seeking.

Thanks for sitting with me through this, I really appreciate it.

[graceabounds]

Come back anytime something seems ‘sticky’

Abundant love.

💕

[papillon]

hi becca,

just wanted to share some realizations.

it became completely obvious that i am, and always have been, a physical organism-very likely an autistic one-moving through the world. i was missing this reality from inside the process because there was always a heavy narrative overlay covering the direct experience of the body.

for years, the story of being a 'seeker on a spiritual journey towards enlightenment' was a master strategy that absorbed and justified everything. long nights in dubai after working hostel hours seemed like deep spiritual seeking, like i was right on the verge of a breakthrough, just one more session and the truth would finally be revealed :) it was a full-blown visual+auditory simulation that distracted me from ordinary physical reality. in reality, the organism was just relaxing and releasing steam after a long day of forced social interactions; emotional outbursts in the same period were absorbed by the narrative, as well as pretty much everything else i was not ready to accept about myself.

i created this character at some point to blend in, seemingly an effortless guy, an athlete, a jokester, until the mask started cracking during college and difficult breakup. i completely forgot i was acting. the isolation, the lack of friendships during my entire life, the social difficulties, avoiding the canteen when other students were there, dreading social interactions, the hyperfixations, constant rehearsals, sensitivity to noise and lights, sitting in front of mirrors for hours, the identity shifts and confusion, the incredible fragmentation-it all got swallowed by the spiritual narrative. it became a perfect justification for my flaws and for the pain and suffering i caused to people around me. i always believed there was the organism + something else-a psychological 'me', an observer/witness/soul -which was just picked up from books and assumed to be true. but that 'something else' was always just a byproduct of the body itself. automatic thoughts and emotions gave rise to imaginary entities that were never actually there.

and honestly, seeing this clearly has brought a literal cessation of suffering. as if the entire suffering was just resistance to what i am, constant dissatisfaction with what's currently here, leading to feeling tense, incomplete, and thus always seeking the holy grail that would make me complete...

when i used to work in the factory, the mental monologue was endless and agonizing: should i greet them or not? should i shake their hand? fix your posture! say something, you look weird! don't stare. your hands look odd. they can notice something is off, how do they know? i spent my life scripting conversations, practicing what to say to a cashier half an hour before getting to the register, imagining an ideal, effortless version of myself breezing through life.

a few days ago at the workplace, that entire movement was just gone. what was left was a calm, undisturbed organism. just sitting there completely undivided, without a separate analyzer judging my behavior or posture. without a trace of discomfort or obsession about what anyone thinks.

even if that automatic monologue tries to pop up again out of habit, it doesn't really matter anymore. the thoughts might happen as a physical reflex, but there is no longer a separate analyzer to grab them, turn them into a problem, or try to fix them. they just arise as bodily noise and dissolve on their own.

it seems the simulation just ran out of power. all of this comes with an intense feeling of familiarity, of 'of course, i know this, it's always been like this.'

ivan

[graceabounds]

Thank you for sharing this, Ivan. There is a warm and peaceful feeling here. And also in thought there is a lot that can relate to what has been so eloquently described.

There is a wish to honor this collapse. There is no special state, everything is as it always was, just without an investment in the commentary.

I will leave off with these, should there be a movement to share what is here, what has already been here, what is clear:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it FEEL to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

8) Anything to add?

Abundant love,
and freedom,
Becca

[papillon]

1. is there a separate entity 'self', 'me', 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? was there ever?

there was never any psychological entity here - no 'self', no 'me', no 'I', in any shape or form. it was always assumed to be there as an imagined entity behind the eyes, controlling the actions and making decisions; it was seen as something fixed - a certain set of characteristics, who I thought I was. reality was perceived through that imaginary character. thoughts, sensations, and emotions were always there, but the psychological subject supposedly producing them was never real.

2. explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. describe it fully as you see it now.

it's the idea that, in addition to the organism, there is a separate entity inside the body acting as a controller. it develops early in childhood and is simply an unexamined belief - an assumed separate entity that narrates the experience. in reality, there is no subject producing thoughts, emotions, or sensations. they simply arise and dissolve, now seen as automatic bodily processes rather than deliberate actions produced by a separate entity. the thoughts are no longer taken as absolute truth, or as something produced by 'me'.

3. how does it FEEL to see this? what is the difference from before we started this dialogue? please report from the past few days.

it feels liberating; the usual process was that negative thoughts would arise, be given massive importance, and be taken as truth - something produced by me - which led to suffering. they were very often demeaning; i always felt like an impostor who had to prove himself, always tense, anxious, on the lookout, always protecting the imaginary target on my chest, always seeking, demanding. now thoughts and sensations arise, are recognized, and dissolve, rather than sticking around and being obsessed over.

4. what was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

there was no big bang, which was always expected. there was a strong conviction here that the moment of recognition would be a grand rupture - a visual pop or explosion of some kind revealing the hidden reality. i always imagined in great detail what that recognition would look like, and then suffered for not experiencing what i had imagined. it was precisely this expectation, picked up from books and media, that always made any realization feel incomplete - nothing was ever felt to be complete, i was always one 'experience' away from 'actually getting it'. now that things are seen clearly and directly, there is a strong feeling of familiarity, of 'of course, it's always been like this, i've always known this'.

5. describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. consider and describe each of these separately.

decisions happen - the organism moves and interacts with the environment dynamically. there is no perceived entity that makes decisions; decisions happen, and thought jumps in and claims ownership either during or after the fact. there is no entity to exercise intention, free will, choice, or control.

6. what makes things happen? how does it work?

there is no controller pulling levers. things happen through conditions, causes, biology, conditioning, environment - a chain of cause and effect, with no single point where a self inserts itself as 'the doer.' right now, typing this reply, there is no self initiating it - just prior conditions (the question asked, memory, habit, this body sitting here) giving rise to the action.

7. what are you responsible for? give examples from experience.

responsibility doesn't disappear - it's just not owned by a separate entity anymore. the organism still apologizes, still cleans up its mess, still follows through - because that's simply what continues to happen here.

example: i missed a work deadline recently. old pattern: 'I' made a mistake → guilt and shame → fix it to relieve the guilt and protect my image (i'm unreliable; they'll think less of me). what actually happened this time: the deadline was missed, it got flagged, the work got finished and handed in late, an apology was made - the same corrective actions that would have happened either way. what was different wasn't the doing, it was the commentary running alongside it - much less shame, much less i'm a bad/unreliable person narrative attached to the action. seeing no-self didn't change what got done, it changed the suffering wrapped around doing it.

8. anything to add?

no.

[graceabounds]

Hello Ivan,

Thanks for this. I can find no holes, no blind spots, nothing lacking here. Hence it appears the Gateless Gate has been crossed… but as you know there is no Gate, no one to cross it, no one to judge the passage, and no end to the journey. ;)

Soon you’ll receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest. Your username has already changed from green to blue and this thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

The experience you have been describing here is just the beginning of exploring. More clean up of old beliefs and habitual patterns of thought will happen in time, in the absence of anyone to control or manage a 'process' with a 'destination'. This can at times be an emotional process. If you have any questions or hiccups at all, you are welcome to drop a line here or email me directly any time.

It has been a pleasure to walk with you here. Of course it is not the end of our conversation. I'm available to support as needed as things continue to evolve.

With gratitude and love,
Becca
🙏