realizing selflessness

[whoknows]

The fact that it hit suggests it is relevant now.

Yes.

Poor K wasn’t merely seeking an insight. She was asking awakening to provide a lifetime guarantee of safety.

Yes, something like that.
(Tearing up again, as I did when first reading your message last night before bed and when reading that story. Would probably sob for several minutes like Naomi if I were in private and not at a coffee shop.)

Seeing that changes the Inquiry. When “Am I awake?” arises, what danger is being predicted if the answer is no—and is that danger present now, or imagined across an entire future?

It seems more “dangerous” if the answer right now to “Am I awake?” is yes. Then I would feel like I’m clearly not yet safe from suffering, so “awakening” is not what I’d thought it was, and now what hope is there?!?!

If the answer to “Am I awake?” is no . . . well, I mostly think, or operate as if, that is in fact the answer (except when I remember that the notions of “I” and “waking up” can be seen as nonsensical, at least from the absolute perspective). And I guess I’m used to that, though I’m impatient for a yes (or for what I think and hope that means).

If I thought the answer to “Am I awake?” was going to continue to be no for a long time, that would be scary because I would continue to feel unsafe and trapped in this life. (“Unsafe” and “trapped” especially trigger the tears.) I would be anticipating ongoing suffering (“suffering” too) and wondering how I could tolerate that.

However, when I woke up this morning (in the ordinary sense!) and thought about responding to your message, I noticed that the mind fairly quickly realized that thoughts like “I would continue to feel unsafe and trapped” could be deconstructed: What is that “I”? Is it an actual, ongoing, discrete thing?

(I just noticed that I’m taking for granted that you and I, and presumably anyone else who happens to read this, understand that questioning and aerating the sense of “self” helps to defuse suffering. A friend just shared a passage from Willa Cather’s Death Comes for the Archbishop that conveys the beauty and power of the Virgin Mary and the Rosary and “the Cross that took away indignity from suffering and made pain and poverty a means of fellowship with Christ.” That’s a very different approach to defusing suffering.)

So anyway . . .

Fear points not necessarily to actual danger, but to what the nervous system predicts is in danger.
. . . . .

This is interesting.
So, if, for example, I feel afraid of continuing being “unawake” for a long time (and what I think that means), that fear might be a learned bodily reaction that doesn’t point to any actual danger.
OK. Will consider that.

Complete this without polishing it:
“If I never awaken, then ______.”
What arises?

Tears (of course).
If I never awaken, then . . .
Suffering. More suffering. More suffering.
More feeling tortured by being alive.
More finding it nearly intolerable to be alive.

But, OK . . .
I can deconstruct the "I."
And I can also inquire whether the fear is of any actual danger.

[vinceschubert]

It seems more “dangerous” if the answer right now to “Am I awake?” is yes. Then I would feel like I’m clearly not yet safe from suffering, so “awakening” is not what I’d thought it was, and now what hope is there?!?!

Ah—there it is. “Awakening” has been carrying the promise of eventual immunity from suffering. If K is already awake, that imagined rescue disappears—and after such a long, exhausting search, losing it feels terrifying.

That doesn’t mean nothing can change or suffering cannot lessen. It means awakening may not be the guaranteed escape K hoped it would be.

Let this land gently: “Perhaps awakening won’t make K permanently safe from suffering.” What appears—actual danger, or fear and grief at losing the promised rescue? And without that promise, is there truly no hope—or simply no guarantee?

v

[whoknows]

Ah—there it is. “Awakening” has been carrying the promise of eventual immunity from suffering. If K is already awake, that imagined rescue disappears—and after such a long, exhausting search, losing it feels terrifying.

I’m at the library, at table by a window, looking out, so no one can see the tears, but I’m restraining the sobbing.

Part of my brain is going, “But that’s what the Buddha said!!! It’s all about liberation from suffering!!! It’s right there in the Four Noble Truths!”

And then I think of Sylvia Boorstein’s playful but serious “Third-and-a-Half Noble Truth”: that short of the cessation of suffering, suffering can become more manageable. (She’s a Vipassana teacher. This is in her book It’s Easier Than You Think.) And, OK, that’s still pretty good. And that seems to be what you’re saying:

That doesn’t mean nothing can change or suffering cannot lessen. It means awakening may not be the guaranteed escape K hoped it would be.

Aw, fuck it. Putting my head down and sobbing (silently) . . .

Let this land gently: “Perhaps awakening won’t make K permanently safe from suffering.”

It’s hard for that to land gently (even though I basically already knew it). But I appreciate that you’re trying to say it gently and kindly.

OK, gonna go cry in the restroom . . .

Five minutes of sobbing, then five minutes of taking a brisk walk outside (it’s early enough that it’s not yet brutally hot here).

An Angelo video I’ve watched over and over is “Do You Want the Truth?? ... Well You Can’t Handle the Truth!” In it, he’s says:

And if you really, really want the truth, you're going to let go.
. . . . .
You don't really want to let go fully or you would already have let go. We wouldn't be having the conversation.
So, what is it you don't want to let go of?
Well, it's something like this opportunity to get what you want, or you don't want to let go of anticipating awakening even if you don't know what it is.

I’ve sensed that this is important for me.
And here we are.
I don’t want to let go of something like the hope of no more suffering ever.

At the meeting yesterday, I was asked where I am with the fears that have arisen (and that might be, or might have been, getting in the way?). And I mentioned (1) the fear of finding life beautiful and, thus, finding mortality terrifying and (2) the fear of totally revising my understanding of human will in a way that means I’ll understand it differently from how I have for my whole life and how the vast majority of the people on the planet do. But both of those have subsided to some degree or have come to seem more manageable.

But there’s another one: (3) the fear of giving up the hope of immunity from suffering.

Let this land gently: “Perhaps awakening won’t make K permanently safe from suffering.” What appears—actual danger, or fear and grief at losing the promised rescue? And without that promise, is there truly no hope—or simply no guarantee?

As we were exploring at the meeting, it’s hard to know how to define “actual danger.” I agree with the person who suggested that “actual danger” doesn’t include only the possibility of imminent loss of life or serious bodily harm but that some other, more psychological or emotional dangers might also count as “actual danger.” But whatever . . .

When I consider that “Perhaps awakening won’t make K permanently safe from suffering,” what appears is . . . well . . . fear of suffering, especially fear of intense, protracted suffering. (Here come the tears again.) What appears is a thought that there actually is no end to suffering. (And I know this is “just” a thought, combined with some bodily sensations, but you’re telling me that the thought corresponds with reality.) (More tears.)

Again, it’s not like I’m surprised by this exactly. But apparently, there was an unreasonable sort of hope lodged in here. And, as I’m seeing, it’s a painful one to let go of.

I think there’s still a reasonable hope in the Third-and-a-Half Noble Truth. I suppose I’ll have to settle for that. Pfthpht!

Related to that, I suppose:
An interaction with spouse late last night gave rise to a burst of my feeling extremely unhappy, to a degree that would seem bizarre and entirely unwarranted to an outside observer but which is all too familiar to me. But I pretty quickly noticed what was going on and was left with (as I’d talked about at the meeting) just some thoughts defanged by being seen as merely thoughts and some bodily sensations that were only mildly uncomfortable. Same thing happened this morning, with a less extreme unhappy reaction.

(It has occurred to me that at least part of my recent resistance to doing work might be due to my feeling like I’ve been on a three-month “awakening” retreat where all I really want to put my time and energy into is this, and it’s often emotionally draining. I just spent two hours on this, but that’s okay because I don’t have any editing work to do right now, and I’ve done everything I needed to do to get my fall class under way, which officially starts Wednesday.)

[vinceschubert]

And then I think of Sylvia Boorstein’s playful but serious “Third-and-a-Half Noble Truth”: that short of the cessation of suffering, suffering can become more manageable. (She’s a Vipassana teacher. This is in her book It’s Easier Than You Think.) And, OK, that’s still pretty good. And that seems to be what you’re saying:

Yes—“more manageable” is still pretty good. But let’s put the whole question of suffering aside for now and allow any reframing to come through experiencing, rather than trying to solve it in advance.

I can’t remember the last time I considered myself to be suffering. The same difficult conditions still arise, and reactions still happen. Sometimes they’re different; sometimes they aren’t. What has changed is that unpleasantness is no longer automatically interpreted as my suffering, and the familiar spiral into further unpleasantness is often short-circuited.

You’re already glimpsing how this might be. So stop using suffering as the measure. Stay with here/now before describing it—and especially before believing stories about what it means.

When unpleasantness next appears, what is there before the mind calls it suffering?

v

[whoknows]

But let’s put the whole question of suffering aside for now

Happy to. :-)

Stay with here/now before describing it—and especially before believing stories about what it means.

When unpleasantness next appears, what is there before the mind calls it suffering?

Got it.

I hope that just as staying alert for the next thought to arise tends to calm down the thoughts, maybe staying alert for the next unpleasantness to occur tends to calm down unpleasantness . . . Hmm, no, I suppose it’s that staying alert for unpleasantness, in order to see what’s there before it’s labeled suffering, is probably a good way to make it less likely to get labeled suffering.

By the way, thank you for your story about autism. Do you have personal/family experience with autism? Or maybe you’ve just worked with a lot of folks from my tribe?

[vinceschubert]

I suppose it’s that staying alert for unpleasantness, in order to see what’s there before it’s labeled suffering, is probably a good way to make it less likely to get labeled suffering.

It also 'objectifies' the experience so that it's seen in the context of conditions. ..but don't worry about this.
Look for the signs that tell you that something (what you used to call suffering) is pending. (or already here)

& thank you big time for the gift. It's very much appreciated.

v

[whoknows]

Look for the signs that tell you that something (what you used to call suffering) is pending. (or already here)

Hypothesis: Tightness in throat and constriction of breathing are frequent tip-offs.

I’ve noticed that when I scan for bodily sensations associated with emotions, I rarely notice anything below the chest, but presumably there’s abdominal stuff going on too, like, related to constriction of breathing. I’ll be on the lookout for that also.

Can’t recall whether I’ve mentioned a notion I encountered in a book by Tibetan Buddhist teacher Chögyam Trungpa: “the lion’s roar,” which is the discovery that all situations are workable. As has happened a few times before, I’m getting glimmers of that. It’s more of a kitten’s tentative mew at this point, but it feels good to have some sense of curiosity about examining the next suffering or suffering-precursor to arise.

[whoknows]

Spent about half of my evening sit thinking about this:

I’ve wondered whether the LU inquiry process tends to work better for folks who have a meditation practice or have had one in the past — anything that involves noticing and letting go of thoughts.

I had just offered up a prayer for the two regulars at the “Monday morning” meeting who seem to be really struggling, and I wondered whether either of them has a meditation practice and, if not, whether it would be helpful.

It seems like having some sustained experience with recognizing thoughts as thoughts would be useful in the LU inquiry process (which I still don’t understand, so I don’t know).

It occurred to me while I was pondering this that’s it’s probably a good sign about where I am that I would find my thoughts getting caught up in the struggles of someone other than “me.”

I also thought of the person who’s been at those meetings maybe three or four times when I’ve been there and whom you were trying to tell a week or two ago that meditation is of no use. But that person was perhaps hoping to recreate some little glimpses, and I wondered if you were mostly trying to (appropriately) undermine a goal-oriented orientation toward all of this.

No need to respond to any of that, but I wanted to share it.

[vinceschubert]

I’ve wondered whether the LU inquiry process tends to work better for folks who have a meditation practice or have had one in the past — anything that involves noticing and letting go of thoughts.

I've had both so i couldn't say. There are so many meditation techniques. i'm more inclined to say that all previous experiences have something to do with how easy/fast or difficult/show it is.

wondered whether either of them has a meditation practice and, if not, whether it would be helpful.

If you are referring to who i imagine you are, then they both meditated.

the LU inquiry process (which I still don’t understand, so I don’t know).

After almost 15 years working with LU, i still don't know how it works. (but it does)

whom you were trying to tell a week or two ago that meditation is of no use.

i had a defensive response to you saying this. i want to 'correct' you and say that i was referring to any 'DOing' and meditating for the purpose of awakening is that, which is maladaptive. (most likely)

that’s it’s probably a good sign about where I am that I would find my thoughts getting caught up in the struggles of someone other than “me.”

agree

I’ve noticed that when I scan for bodily sensations associated with emotions, I rarely notice anything below the chest, but presumably there’s abdominal stuff going on too, like, related to constriction of breathing.

Good one. i like organ language as it often reveals.. So pick any anatomical part below the chest and see if you can come up with a saying that references that. eg "I can't stomach that..." or "kicking the idea around" etc
Try the first body part that comes to mind.

love

vince

[whoknows]

whom you were trying to tell a week or two ago that meditation is of no use.

i had a defensive response to you saying this. i want to 'correct' you and say that i was referring to any 'DOing' and meditating for the purpose of awakening is that, which is maladaptive. (most likely)

Sorry I said it clumsily! I really did mean this:

I wondered if you were mostly trying to (appropriately) undermine a goal-oriented orientation toward all of this.

That is, I suspected that you were probably employing “skillful means” to subvert that person’s apparent use of meditation as a strategy for “attaining” awakening experiences.

(Will consider the rest of your message now, but wanted to post this right away.)

[vinceschubert]

whom you were trying to tell a week or two ago that meditation is of no use.

had a defensive response to you saying this.

Sorry I said it clumsily! I really did mean this:

This happens often. In my reply (about a defensive response), there was no rebuke. i did not take offence at your comment. In fact i was amused and thankful that this reaction was triggered, as it gave me the opportunity to recognize a remnant of identification. So your response (an apology) was also an opportunity to do the same. Any impulse to explain, complain, apologize etc is an indication that identification (selfing) has been triggered.
Remember that our intention is not to prohibit these from happening (as we have no control and by the time we realize that it has happened, it is already done - so insane to want to change what literally can't be.
Simple acknowledgement is enough to facilitate learning...

much love

v

[whoknows]

i was amused and thankful that this reaction was triggered, as it gave me the opportunity to recognize a remnant of identification.

Glad I could help? ;-)

i like organ language as it often reveals.. So pick any anatomical part below the chest and see if you can come up with a saying that references that. eg "I can't stomach that..." or "kicking the idea around" etc
Try the first body part that comes to mind.

This is fun.
It’s maybe not precisely an anatomical part, but I thought of “gut”:
“It hit me in the gut.”
“I have a gut feeling.”
Or “belly”:
“Belly laugh.”

Later in the day:
Was having trouble feeling any hypothesized constriction in my belly from the “inside,” but when I put my hand on my belly, the tightening was really obvious. It’s so obvious and so frequent that it’s kind of funny.
Then I started wondering what to do with this information.
And then I quickly thought: Probably just notice it. Right?
I mean, when I notice the constriction, I can’t help but let it relax, but that doesn’t feel like a “practice” or like something I “should” do. It just happens.

[vinceschubert]

“It hit me in the gut.” = a sudden realization
“I have a gut feeling.” = intuition
“Belly laugh.” = an expression of unrestrained pleasure

That these occurred to you suggests that there may be 'value' in seeing how they 'fit' for you...
Again using 'stream of consciousness', what comes to mind (before examination) about what these things might be indicating?

v

[whoknows]

“It hit me in the gut.” = a sudden realization
“I have a gut feeling.” = intuition
“Belly laugh.” = an expression of unrestrained pleasure

That these occurred to you suggests that there may be 'value' in seeing how they 'fit' for you...
Again using 'stream of consciousness', what comes to mind (before examination) about what these things might be indicating?

Before I even got to your question, I was struck that your list of translations of these gut/belly expressions included the words “realization,” “intuition,” and “pleasure.” I’d like to think that those are evocative of where I’m headed and, increasingly, where I am.

[whoknows]

It took me only a few minutes to respond to your latest message, so NOW what am I supposed to do to engage in my awakening hobby or to pacify my mind by making it feel like it has something it can DO about awakening (or about grokking already-existing awakeness)?

This is a weird state to be in, perhaps for you as well as for me.

Gonna rewatch the Angelo video about deconstructing the thought “I am not awake,” pausing the video periodically to consider the questions/pointers . . .

Paused to consider this pointer of my own:
Let’s say vince had just told me that I’m awake (which poor vince has told me multiple times in various ways), and let's say I really believed it, then what might my experience be like right now?
(This is, of course, just another version of my occasional previous experiments with “This is nirvana” and “Ahhh . . . of course, THIS.”)

I look around the library I’m in right now with a sense of “What's it like to perceive ordinary reality knowing I’m awake?”
I find my body and breathing relaxing a little and my mind quieting down a little. (This seems to come from a sense of a relief that the search has more or less come to an end and that life will henceforth be a lot less problematic overall.)
And I actually see the stacks and ceiling and carpet and tables and chairs (which I don’t usually register so clearly and consciously).
(It's like I want to be able to tell someone what it’s like to be awake, so I want to be able to describe it. Or I just want to really register and appreciate what it’s like.)
Hearing the traffic outside.
Hearing a child’s voice.
Seeing two people sitting at a table and another person wandering around.
Seeing the cars going by outside.
Feeling my breathing and the too-tight waistband of my jeans.
Hearing my breathing.

OK, continuing the video . . .
“What is the ‘I am not awake’-ness even referring to? Is it referring to the wide-openness that’s always here, before, during, and after that thought? That doesn’t quite make sense, does it?”
No, it doesn’t.

Well, OK, that occupied me for a bit in a way that felt “worthwhile.”