Desperately seeking no-one

[Jikai]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? That there is no 'doer', no separate self orchestrating life; that thoughts, feelings and sensations arise but 'self' causing or controlling that

What are you looking for at LU? To find the truth, to find freedom and the end of seeking. I struggle to believe that this is possible - I have engaged in questioning from an 'awake' individual before but the questions were rote questions and I did not experience any shift, only increased frustration - but having read your book 'Gateless Gatecrashing' I would really like to give it my best try!

What do you expect from a guided conversation? That the guide will recognise my particular 'blocks'; ie perceptions, beliefs and resistences that are preventing me from seing the truth of no self, and be able to guide me through them with an individualised approach. And be kind. Though I don't mind the occasional slap, I'll probably need it! he he

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I've been a spiritual seeker since childhood, though I had no spiritual influences in my upbringing. I've been a born again Christian (twice), a pagan at various times, practicing a kind of shamanism, but my most persistent spiritual practice has been Soto Zen which I practiced dilegently with a teacher for about 15 years, meditating a good deal and attending a number of silent retreats. Although that dropped away to some degree when I moved back to the UK (I was living in the US for the 15 years I was engaged in a formal Zen practice) mostly because it was not available in the semi rural area that I lived in, I have continued a meditation practice of some description and have practices self enquiry through the teachings of Adyashanti though I did eventually get frustrated with that, feeling like all that meditation wasn't getting me where I wanted to get (honestly, I just wanted to feel better, but also had a real desire to discover the truth of existence, though that feels a bit wishy washy and vague when I write it). In the past couple of years I discovered non-dual teachings. Well, that's not strictly true because I read The Power of Now when it first came out and I guess that's non-duality, and those ideas have always been close to me. But more recently I became a lot more involved and listened to and read people such as Rupert Spira, and then recently came across Angelo Dillulo and just attended his 8 day silent retreat here in the UK. The desire in me to find reality has been steadily increasing and the retreat has made me on fire. I was going to say 'on fire to....' but can't quite formulate the words. On fire to wake up from the dream of a separate self?

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?

10

[Elad]

Hi Jikai, let's start in continuation of the questions that ended our meeting today.

(1) Is anything missing here/now direct experience?

(2) Can you find a self that is controlling what is happening here/now?

(3) When the sense of the identity as the broken/not-enough/not-whole one comes up, where does it come from? Is there a separate self choosing or controlling it?

When looking at questions always explore the alive experience here and now ("ordinary mind" here and now).

When working with people here I recommend people to write here every day, and aim to answer all questions as best you can. Not in a rigid way where there cannot be exceptions, but as the overall intention and commitment.

If you have questions, feel free to ask.

[Jikai]

1. No, or maybe? If I can feel anything missing it's energy - my body has been chronically tired recently and needs to rest which is disruptive and impacts how I'm feeling throughout the day

2. In some ways it feels like actions are just arising. I get up, make tea, go the shops - I often have the sense of noticing after the fact. But then some of the tiime it feels like me choosing what to do, what to give my attention to

3. It's hard to examine because I'm not feeing like that currently. When it comes up it comes from thoughts and feelings, and from feeling or being physically vulnerable. I don't control that any more than I could control the physical events occurring. I don't know about a separate self choosing or controlling it - it feels like 'me'

[Elad]

1. No, or maybe? If I can feel anything missing it's energy - my body has been chronically tired recently and needs to rest which is disruptive and impacts how I'm feeling throughout the day

On the relative level, there is always something. My knee hurt today... However, in direct experience, beyond concepts and ideas, is anything missing?

2. In some ways it feels like actions are just arising. I get up, make tea, go the shops - I often have the sense of noticing after the fact. But then some of the tiime it feels like me choosing what to do, what to give my attention to

Okay. Try writing numbers and words after each other. Here is me doing it:

12, baby, sky, doll, 11, 372, desert, pee, dragon, 999.

Do the same, spend a good period of time with this. With each word or number that comes, LOOK, where does the choice come from?

3. It's hard to examine because I'm not feeing like that currently. When it comes up it comes from thoughts and feelings, and from feeling or being physically vulnerable. I don't control that any more than I could control the physical events occurring

.


This sounds like clear observing.

I don't know about a separate self choosing or controlling it - it feels like 'me'

What does it mean it feels like me? What exactly indicates/shows that?


Last thing for now, if feelings, including doubts, resevations and resistances come up, let me know, important this is a process of you sharing directly from the heart.

[Jikai]

1. No, or maybe? If I can feel anything missing it's energy - my body has been chronically tired recently and needs to rest which is disruptive and impacts how I'm feeling throughout the day

On the relative level, there is always something. My knee hurt today... However, in direct experience, beyond concepts and ideas, is anything missing?

This feels a bit dismissive. My direct experience does include my body sensations. I mean, on one level I understand what you're saying. I damaged my knee several months ago and that still often hurts and limits movement. My feet and lower legs have been going numb and 'pins and needle-y' for many years so I am aware of them all the time. I don't mention those. But the tiredness and buzzing in both ears that comes with it is currently immediately what I feel if I settle down to meditate or try and address your questions. Sensory information seems part of my direct experience or am I misunderstanding?

2. In some ways it feels like actions are just arising. I get up, make tea, go the shops - I often have the sense of noticing after the fact. But then some of the tiime it feels like me choosing what to do, what to give my attention to

Okay. Try writing numbers and words after each other. Here is me doing it:

12, baby, sky, doll, 11, 372, desert, pee, dragon, 999.

Do the same, spend a good period of time with this. With each word or number that comes, LOOK, where does the choice come from?
The words just arise. At first I 'heard' the word a second or split second before I wrote it but after a while the words were just written. I did find I was looking at or referring to things around me.

3. It's hard to examine because I'm not feeing like that currently. When it comes up it comes from thoughts and feelings, and from feeling or being physically vulnerable. I don't control that any more than I could control the physical events occurring

.


This sounds like clear observing.

I don't know about a separate self choosing or controlling it - it feels like 'me'

When I was meditating yesterday I had a thought - a thought that led to a thought that led to this thought - though the process was too quick to catch the first thoughts, I only 'caught' the thought after a few thoughts and the thought I 'caught' was 'I'll never get this, i can't do this, I'm not up to this' or words to that effect. It did seem to me though that there was a feeling in my body first and then my mind created the narrative. The feeling in my body was a familiar kind of heaviness, sadness, sinking feeling...? Hard to pin it down to words.


What does it mean it feels like me? What exactly indicates/shows that?
The narrative feels very, very familiar, very well worn, very well travelled....recognition....like 'oh, that's me'. And then I'm inside the thought instead of observing it.

Last thing for now, if feelings, including doubts, resevations and resistances come up, let me know, important this is a process of you sharing directly from the heart.

What am I feeling? There is a feeling of excitement but also some dread (dread is too strong but along those lines), a fear of or maybe resistance to expectation, a fear of what if I don't 'get' this. Oh, yes, what just occurred to me is that there is a resistance to 'performing', to responding to someone else's expectation. There is some fear, slight but definitely there, of losing my mind. I have past experience of feeling so emotionally traumatised by particular circumstances or events that I experienced a feeling of losing 'myself', a feeling that my physical body became totally insubstantial, like the wind could blow right through me. I think I'm associating that with 'losing identity' or 'self'.

And I do have some resistance to doing this process with a male. I don't have much experience of good communication with the men in my life, I find women much more comfortable and easier to communicate with. This isn't connected to anything that's occurred with you..yet, haha.

Sorry this is so messy. I'm using a Chromebook and sometimes that acts a bit weird with Microsoft websites. I can't figure out how to manage the quotes and coloured text in a clearer way. I hope you can make sense of it, I'm sure you can :)

Thank you. Helen

[Elad]

Hi Helen,

Thank you for sharing so openly, that is important.

This feels a bit dismissive.

I understand it can land that way, I am sorry. This kind of questioning can open mind-heart in the right moment, but certainly can become an enactment of uncaring if it doesn't land. Lets leave the pointer of "is anything missing" for now.

My direct experience does include my body sensations.

Certainly.

But the tiredness and buzzing in both ears that comes with it is currently immediately what I feel if I settle down to meditate or try and address your questions. Sensory information seems part of my direct experience or am I misunderstanding?

If we went further with this pointer, the direction would be: What in direct experience makes the sensations you call tiredness and buzzing into something wrong/something missing ?

It would be about separting resistance/belief from sensation. But again, this is a door that can easily land as dismissive, especially if a mutual trust is not established, so we can certainly leave this for now.

The words just arise. At first I 'heard' the word a second or split second before I wrote it but after a while the words were just written.

Yes - and even the hearing of the word before writing, where does that choice come from? Or if the heard word is written or not, where does that choice come from? Can you find anything that is not spontaneously happening when you look closely?

I did find I was looking at or referring to things around me.

And this also happened spontaneously right? Or we could call it through conditioning - point being, mysteriously naturally unfolding without a you that interferes in anything.

I don't know about a separate self choosing or controlling it - it feels like 'me'

When I was meditating yesterday I had a thought - a thought that led to a thought that led to this thought - though the process was too quick to catch the first thoughts, I only 'caught' the thought after a few thoughts and the thought I 'caught' was 'I'll never get this, i can't do this, I'm not up to this' or words to that effect. It did seem to me though that there was a feeling in my body first and then my mind created the narrative. The feeling in my body was a familiar kind of heaviness, sadness, sinking feeling...? Hard to pin it down to words.

What does it mean it feels like me? What exactly indicates/shows that?
The narrative feels very, very familiar, very well worn, very well travelled....recognition....like 'oh, that's me'. And then I'm inside the thought instead of observing it.

Good observing. So story of self happens, belief in self happens, a sense of familiarity happens - yes yes yes. And: None of it is a self that chooses it or owns it.

The key point is to just see this in real time. That this is true for everything.

What am I feeling? There is a feeling of excitement but also some dread (dread is too strong but along those lines), a fear of or maybe resistance to expectation, a fear of what if I don't 'get' this. Oh, yes, what just occurred to me is that there is a resistance to 'performing', to responding to someone else's expectation. There is some fear, slight but definitely there, of losing my mind. I have past experience of feeling so emotionally traumatised by particular circumstances or events that I experienced a feeling of losing 'myself', a feeling that my physical body became totally insubstantial, like the wind could blow right through me. I think I'm associating that with 'losing identity' or 'self'.

And I do have some resistance to doing this process with a male. I don't have much experience of good communication with the men in my life, I find women much more comfortable and easier to communicate with. This isn't connected to anything that's occurred with you..yet, haha.

The honestly is gold.

resistance to expectation

Its really important that this process is for you. Read out load the following sentence serveral times: "I can do this process or stop exactly as I please, Elad doesn't want anything but freedom for me". See what happens. Whatever happens, thoughts, feelings, is just what needs to come up and be seen now.

There is some fear, slight but definitely there, of losing my mind. I have past experience of feeling so emotionally traumatised by particular circumstances or events that I experienced a feeling of losing 'myself', a feeling that my physical body became totally insubstantial, like the wind could blow right through me. I think I'm associating that with 'losing identity' or 'self'.

This process actually doesn't remove the ordinary sense of self. It only helps you see clearly that this ordinary sense is a spontaneous natural phenomenon, not separated from the whole, not controlled by a you that is separate and choosing it. When this is seen experientially it changes things... Opens a different kind of posibility for intimacy and ease. So it is not about changing out of normal experience. Its just a shift in how normal experience is seen.

And - fear is normal and natural. Please keep me in the loop about how it moves.

And I do have some resistance to doing this process with a male. I don't have much experience of good communication with the men in my life, I find women much more comfortable and easier to communicate with. This isn't connected to anything that's occurred with you..yet, haha.

Thank you for letting me know. This resistance and more challenge to trust can be an opportunity or a hindrance depending on how things play out. If our interactions helps you see these patterns/transference around male figures and become more free of them it can make this extra potent. If it continues to feel like in some sense it repeats, or that the the fear it will repeat stays strong, then it might be better you get a female guide, could be Becca, or someone else. Let's see.

I certainly can understand that with a narcissistic father (as you mentioned) and other bad experiences this conditoning would come. And women are also on average more empathic :)

There is also something here that is naturally about this format of guiding. When we work in person, in the sangha or when I do one on one sessions, the form is much more attuning and much more working with all the levels at the same time (emotional, relational, awakening). For the work in this forum to work, it depends that all the emotional stuff and relational stuff that gets triggered is not too intense/complicated for the guidee to sit with and use as "water for the mill" quite a lot on their own, even when the pointings don't validate, acknowledge and meet feelings the way it would happen in a live meeting. The work here is dependent on a sufficient trust that the pointers point to something valuable and important, and that it is worth engaging them, experiencing whatever happens, and reporting it, as a fluid process that ultimately none of us are in control of, but that will take care of itself, if we are both sincere and keep looking. And it is natural it can take some time to clarify if it feels that way. Sometimes for whatever reasons, that might include the ways both the guide and guidee are a work in progress, the sense of misattunement or mistrust becomes too much. Then it might be better to try a different guide or do live sessions.

Final thing for now, here is a short video on how to use the quote function. Will make it easier:

https://youtu.be/QCbZYSvnTpc?si=i1PTz1Xy6IBuZhck

[Jikai]

Hi Elad -

I understand it can land that way, I am sorry. This kind of questioning can open mind-heart in the right moment, but certainly can become an enactment of uncaring if it doesn't land.

I totally get that but felt it was worth approaching the subject head on because I have several auto immune disorders (coeliac disease and thyroid disease) which I've had since my 20s and they impact my life significantly - which is probably what's going on with the current tiredness, and the numb feet for that matter - so it's bound to come up and is qualitively different than the regular kind of aches and pains and minor health things that come up for us all.

My experience of them is different, which I think is what I was trying to verbalise.

If we went further with this pointer, the direction would be: What in direct experience makes the sensations you call tiredness and buzzing into something wrong/something missing ?

I actually did ask myself something along those lines! The answer was a narrative (from my lived experience) about how much it impacts this moment, feeling like crap, lying down instead of being outside doing something, not engaging in activities I'd like to engage in because I feel too tired.

I'm happy to go down that path of questioning more at some point.

Yes - and even the hearing of the word before writing, where does that choice come from? Or if the heard word is written or not, where does that choice come from? Can you find anything that is not spontaneously happening when you look closely?

No! It did not feel like 'I' was choosing

And this also happened spontaneously right? Or we could call it through conditioning - point being, mysteriously naturally unfolding without a you that interferes in anything.

Yes!

Its really important that this process is for you. Read out load the following sentence serveral times: "I can do this process or stop exactly as I please, Elad doesn't want anything but freedom for me". See what happens. Whatever happens, thoughts, feelings, is just what needs to come up and be seen now.

That made me feel happy, and grateful for this process, and for you, that you want that for me, Elad.
The 'resistance to expectation' that I described is a pattern I recognise from early childhood, that it was easier to resist engaging because there was no room for just trying and maybe failing or not getting it right, and it feels like the resistance is a habitual pattern now. I have always learned new skills quickly but as soon as the performance is being measured (I'm thinking of work situations now) that resistance comes up and I want to disengage. But I definitely don't want to disengage from this!

This process actually doesn't remove the ordinary sense of self. It only helps you see clearly that this ordinary sense is a spontaneous natural phenomenon, not separated from the whole, not controlled by a you that is separate and choosing it.

I 'know' this - as in I have heard this talked about and understand it consciously. The fear feels fairly slight and quite manageable but I'll keep you posted :)

Thank you for letting me know. This resistance and more challenge to trust can be an opportunity or a hindrance depending on how things play out.

Thank you very much for your response to this concern, I'm much reassured and am very happy for us to continue. Although I have had some traumatic elements in my relationships with men, at this stage my resistance comes more from simply being disappointed with the inability or unwillingness of the (few) men that I have significant relationships with to communicate about emotional or spiritual matters whereas I do that with my women friends all the time. I will be very happy to break that mould and have a different kind of experience with you in this process.

The work here is dependent on a sufficient trust that the pointers point to something valuable and important, and that it is worth engaging them, experiencing whatever happens, and reporting it, as a fluid process that ultimately none of us are in control of, but that will take care of itself, if we are both sincere and keep looking.

I absolutely trust that we are both sincere and am very willing and excited to keep looking.
Thank you very much for this thoughtful and kind response to my answers, Elad - and thanks for the video, too, which was very helpful.

I look forward to our next exchange
Deep gassho
Helen

[Elad]

Dear Helen -

I totally get that but felt it was worth approaching the subject head on because I have several auto immune disorders (coeliac disease and thyroid disease) which I've had since my 20s and they impact my life significantly - which is probably what's going on with the current tiredness, and the numb feet for that matter - so it's bound to come up and is qualitively different than the regular kind of aches and pains and minor health things that come up for us all.

I understand and I see I did not show openness for the depth of the challange/pain in my initial response here.

My experience of them is different, which I think is what I was trying to verbalise.

Yes this is the most important part, I would think.

I actually did ask myself something along those lines! The answer was a narrative (from my lived experience) about how much it impacts this moment, feeling like crap, lying down instead of being outside doing something, not engaging in activities I'd like to engage in because I feel too tired.

I'm happy to go down that path of questioning more at some point.

Nice. So when you want, you can play with "the gap" of staying with the sensations and the awareness of the trigger-fact ("I cannot do things like I could without this" or whatever sentence catches the core on a conventional fact level) and then look: Where/what is the mechanism/the neccesity that transforms (a) the fact and the sensations/raw feeling into (b) the belief about this not being okay, etc.

Yes - and even the hearing of the word before writing, where does that choice come from? Or if the heard word is written or not, where does that choice come from? Can you find anything that is not spontaneously happening when you look closely?

No! It did not feel like 'I' was choosing

Exactly.

And this also happened spontaneously right? Or we could call it through conditioning - point being, mysteriously naturally unfolding without a you that interferes in anything.

Yes!

Great this is quite clear. Let's look at this also in relation to movement, please do the following exercise:


Raising Hand Exercise

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not
the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like,
and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

What is it that is controlling the hand?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

How is the decision made?

Its really important that this process is for you. Read out load the following sentence serveral times: "I can do this process or stop exactly as I please, Elad doesn't want anything but freedom for me". See what happens. Whatever happens, thoughts, feelings, is just what needs to come up and be seen now.

That made me feel happy, and grateful for this process, and for you, that you want that for me, Elad.

You are most welcome 🤍

The 'resistance to expectation' that I described is a pattern I recognise from early childhood, that it was easier to resist engaging because there was no room for just trying and maybe failing or not getting it right, and it feels like the resistance is a habitual pattern now. I have always learned new skills quickly but as soon as the performance is being measured (I'm thinking of work situations now) that resistance comes up and I want to disengage. But I definitely don't want to disengage from this!

Thank you again for being so clear and open. So every time this dynamic comes up it is an opportunity to (1) integrate/digest more of the feelings of your child self about no space for trying, failing, playing, finding your own way... It would be natural for there to be anger/rage, grief, fear, longing... That doesn't need to be fixed or changed, just loved as is, (2) let go of any subtle remnant oppositionality/contrariness (or its flip side: pleasing) which were natural coping mechanisms, and now can be replaced by a more mature assertiveness and openness.

This process actually doesn't remove the ordinary sense of self. It only helps you see clearly that this ordinary sense is a spontaneous natural phenomenon, not separated from the whole, not controlled by a you that is separate and choosing it.

I 'know' this - as in I have heard this talked about and understand it consciously. The fear feels fairly slight and quite manageable but I'll keep you posted :)

Perfect.

Thank you for letting me know. This resistance and more challenge to trust can be an opportunity or a hindrance depending on how things play out.

Thank you very much for your response to this concern, I'm much reassured and am very happy for us to continue. Although I have had some traumatic elements in my relationships with men, at this stage my resistance comes more from simply being disappointed with the inability or unwillingness of the (few) men that I have significant relationships with to communicate about emotional or spiritual matters whereas I do that with my women friends all the time. I will be very happy to break that mould and have a different kind of experience with you in this process.

I'm glad!

The work here is dependent on a sufficient trust that the pointers point to something valuable and important, and that it is worth engaging them, experiencing whatever happens, and reporting it, as a fluid process that ultimately none of us are in control of, but that will take care of itself, if we are both sincere and keep looking.

I absolutely trust that we are both sincere and am very willing and excited to keep looking.
Thank you very much for this thoughtful and kind response to my answers, Elad - and thanks for the video, too, which was very helpful.

I look forward to our next exchange
Deep gassho
Helen

My pleasure and honor - deep gassho

[Jikai]

Hi Elad

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like,
and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

What is it that is controlling the hand?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

This feels harder to 'get' than the writing words and numbers exercise, I'm not sure why but perhaps because there are only two options (left or right hand) whereas the words & numbers contain an infinite number of choices. Plus with the hands there was more of a gap between each action - I almost felt like I was trying to catch myself out by resting and sneaking up on myself, otherwise it felt much more like 'I' was choosing the hand to move or thinking would come up. Whereas with the words and numbers I wrote continuously which seemed to calm my mind and I could see after a while that the word/thought in my head was occurring simultaneously with my writing it and there seemed to be no conscious volition.

Though I did try having the thought/command 'move the left' or 'move the right' and nothing happened whereas the actual movement didn't necessarily have a preceding thought connected to it. So in that sense, no, I did not feel like I could find a controller....quite. Somehow I still doubted that 'I' was not making it happen, because I had the intention to, much more so than the words and numbers.

I did notice myself throughout the day though, having just completed or being in the middle of an action - putting the kettle on, brushing my teeth etc - and realising that I hadn't 'made' that happen, or noticed it happening...until I did, once it was already underway.

I had an experience earlier of suddenly becoming very anxious for no apparent reason. I'd had a conversation with the friend that I live with (in his house, as a lodger) about him fixing a problem with my car - nothing very significant and this is not unusual - and I suddenly felt very anxious for no clear reason. When I went to do my meditation I just stayed with the anxiety and didn't go to thought or try to figure out what was the reason or try to make myself feel better (by doing deep breathing or something). It did dissipate after a while.

Helen

[Elad]

Hi Helen

This feels harder to 'get' than the writing words and numbers exercise, I'm not sure why but perhaps because there are only two options (left or right hand) whereas the words & numbers contain an infinite number of choices. Plus with the hands there was more of a gap between each action - I almost felt like I was trying to catch myself out by resting and sneaking up on myself, otherwise it felt much more like 'I' was choosing the hand to move or thinking would come up. Whereas with the words and numbers I wrote continuously which seemed to calm my mind and I could see after a while that the word/thought in my head was occurring simultaneously with my writing it and there seemed to be no conscious volition.

Good noticing. This can be useful, here the belief in a real choosing self is stronger. So do it more, and keep looking, is there truly a self doing anything, choosing anything? Or is both the movements, when they come, the feeling of deciding, the trying, the relaxing, the not relaxing - all out of control ultimately just what is?


Conventionally of course there is intentional as opposed to non-intentional action. A person who cannot differentiate the difference between "stumbling" and "choosing to lift right or left hand now" is not functional. So we are not looking to get rid of that. Rather we are looking to see clearly that even intentional actions are just as they are, what they are, without any ultimate control...


Try this:

Say out load many times:

"I see clearly that there is no controller".

What reactions come up to that, thoughts, feelings, images, sensations? Is there any controller of those reactions at all, including the ones that feel most like "me"?

Try the same with the sentence:

"I see clearly that there is a controller and here is where/what it is"

Let me know what happens.

I did notice myself throughout the day though, having just completed or being in the middle of an action - putting the kettle on, brushing my teeth etc - and realising that I hadn't 'made' that happen, or noticed it happening...until I did, once it was already underway.

Good!

I had an experience earlier of suddenly becoming very anxious for no apparent reason. I'd had a conversation with the friend that I live with (in his house, as a lodger) about him fixing a problem with my car - nothing very significant and this is not unusual - and I suddenly felt very anxious for no clear reason. When I went to do my meditation I just stayed with the anxiety and didn't go to thought or try to figure out what was the reason or try to make myself feel better (by doing deep breathing or something). It did dissipate after a while.

Thank you for sharing! Let me know how this continues. Also... I would not categorically try to avoid breathing in a wholesome way with the feeling. Sometimes this just amounts to resistance on a body level. So sometimes it can be helpful to "do nothing" as you did. Other times it will be most helpful to breathe consciously with the feeling. AND: As best you can do not use the breath to try calm the feeling, instead as best you can explore what it means to let the breathing "embrace" or "support becoming one with" the feeling as much as possible. Let it be a perpetual discovery.

[Jikai]

Conventionally of course there is intentional as opposed to non-intentional action. A person who cannot differentiate the difference between "stumbling" and "choosing to lift right or left hand now" is not functional. So we are not looking to get rid of that. Rather we are looking to see clearly that even intentional actions are just as they are, what they are, without any ultimate control...

Yes, I get this; it makes sense.

Say out load many times:

"I see clearly that there is no controller".

What reactions come up to that, thoughts, feelings, images, sensations? Is there any controller of those reactions at all, including the ones that feel most like "me"?

Try the same with the sentence:

"I see clearly that there is a controller and here is where/what it is"

Let me know what happens.

So, as a precursor to this, I had woken up, early morning, straight out of sleep with the memory of something that happened - something that I did - 25 years ago, and was immediately overwhelmed with grief and shame. I haven't thought of this situation for a good while and have gone over it and talked about it with a counsellor a number of times. I have seen the friend that it related to a number of times since then and have talked about it and we seemed to be okay. The friend died some years ago. After waking I cried and journalled about it, and then distracted myself for the next few hours.

So, when I came to meditate and then do the exercise above my first reaction to repeating the sentence quite a few times was relief - relief that I was acting from my conditioning, situation, state etc. at the time and not acting intentionally. Which was immediately followed by doubt and a feeling that I was letting myself off the hook. Then I recognised that I do let other people 'off the hook' fairly consistently by recognising the many factors that are motivating their actions, but sometimes struggle to do that for myself (though I've made a lot of progress with that in the past few years).

I was continuing to repeat the sentence while noticing the changing states/emotions/thoughts arising.

Then a feeling of hopelessness came over me - the thought 'what's the point then?'. If I can't or don't control anything then there's no hope of 'getting better', being a better person etc. (I should add that consciously I do understand and am in agreement that this process is to realise the truth, not a 'self help' practice but evidently my subconscious believes otherwise!)

Then I moved on to saying out loud the second sentence and I couldn't do it more than a couple of times. Anger arose and I
felt/thought "Of course 'I'm not/there's no controller - if I was I wouldn't choose to do things like that!!" I really connected with a feeling of hopelessness and not understanding why I do the things I do half the time.

It was a pretty emotional exercise, which I believe was much coloured by my still feel totally exhausted for no apparent reason, and also waking right into such a difficult memory and painful emotions. Weird.

I would not categorically try to avoid breathing in a wholesome way with the feeling. Sometimes this just amounts to resistance on a body level. So sometimes it can be helpful to "do nothing" as you did. Other times it will be most helpful to breathe consciously with the feeling. AND: As best you can do not use the breath to try calm the feeling, instead as best you can explore what it means to let the breathing "embrace" or "support becoming one with" the feeling as much as possible. Let it be a perpetual discovery.

Yes, we may be saying the same thing. I have historically used a particular belly breathing/long breath out to calm myself when feeling very anxious but in the instance I described it wasn't overwhelming and I just stayed with the feeling while doing normal deep/meditative breathing.

So, in the interests of full transparency, reading over what I've written, then the fear came up that I'm not 'suitable', not ready or some other BS, and that you might sack me. It's so weird, and uncomfortable, what's going on with me currently physically and the effect it has on me mentally when the first feeling I have every morning is "I'm soooo tired" and by mid afternoon I'm falling asleep. I've actually had a whole bunch of tests done in the past few weeks and nothing is showing up so it's a mystery and I'm just going along with the idea that 'this too will pass' but I have days like today when I feel flattened by it and my mood is low as a result. I'm really sorry - it's not where I want to be with this process but it is what it is.

With thanks
Helen

[Jikai]

Phew, that was a lot yesterday. This morning I slept several hours later and feel so much better. There's a lot of 'story' and unease around this tiredness, which has been going on for maybe two months now. But also the feelings and the narrative around it that I woke with was shocking to me. The depth of feeling, the grief, regret and shame. I felt so much better this morning and started to do my 'morning pages' - writing in my journal - saying how much better I'm feeling, and it all came up again!

I can see that I have no control, there there is no 'self' controlling these feelilngs any more than I have control over the weather. The feelings just arose, but then there is layer and layer of thought and narrative. I can see that thought/mind is constantly trying to pin down meaning, and that the meaning is to enable control of the feeling and, ultimately, to make it go away.

Angelo Dillulo talks about needing to be okay with discomfort but there is so much discomfort! So much physical unease and mental/emotional unease. But I want the truth and the discomfort is just discomfort. And that's another thought...
Helen

[Elad]

Dear Helen,

Thank you for these. It does sound very intense with process around tiredness. I do recommend being gentle with that and also being gentle with this process, given that it is a very challenging time.

It's important not take this process to a belief that I cannot do anything or improve anything. That is not realization, it is just whatever self was believed in before replaced with a belief in helpless self - that is often a downgrade. So what is the antidote? Making it essential that this is not about believing in anything but continuing to SEE what happens and what is there, including what is believed, and continuing to LOOK what is being believed to be the self that can or cannot be intentional. At some point clarity will dawn in its own way.

I know you know but still feel compelled to say: I will never sack you. And if anything feels off to me, I will talk with you about respectfully with an aim to find a good way together. And nothing feels off to me...

Here is the next exercise for you:

“I” labelling


Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and
the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a
thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self
side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to
feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go
on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I
was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?
Let me know how you go and what you notice.

[Jikai]

Dear Elad

I know you know but still feel compelled to say: I will never sack you. And if anything feels off to me, I will talk with you about respectfully with an aim to find a good way together. And nothing feels off to me...

Thank you so much, Elad. for this reassurance.

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and
the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a
thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self
side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to
feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go
on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I
was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?
Let me know how you go and what you notice.

More of the thoughts were referring to Self than Other.
I noticed thoughts becoming self-conscious about the task - thoughts organising thoughts about how to do the task and then something...what?...awareness?....watching the thoughts organising thoughts.
Most of the thoughts were 'sensation' observations - sensations in the body, 'I'm tired'...buzzing in my ears...stomach gurgling
Some thoughts noticing what was going on outside the big window I was sitting next to. The wind in the apple tree. A pair of Cabbage White butterfies dancing together. A dark cloud scudding along.

A uneasy thought about a dream I woke from in the early hours. There was fear connected to the dream, or not the dream so much as the disorientation I felt when I woke from it. Then immediately after noticing the fear a memory from childhood came up, of being afraid.

I couldn't find a self controlling any of this though there is a sense of ownership of the body. 'My' stomach is gurgling.

How can I relate to memories? They are vivid thoughts, emotions, body sensations in immediate experience referencing something past. I feel the belief that these events are still 'me', still affecting 'me'.

this is not about believing in anything but continuing to SEE what happens and what is there, including what is believed, and continuing to LOOK what is being believed to be the self that can or cannot be intentional. At some point clarity will dawn in its own way.

Thank you for this clear pointing. I trust your direction and continue to follow it happily, if tiredly! I'm doing my best to be very gentle with myself and let things unfold in their own time.

With love,
Helen

[Elad]

Dear Helen,

I couldn't find a self controlling any of this

Right!

though there is a sense of ownership of the body. 'My' stomach is gurgling.

Lets explore this. Sit with these sensations (or others, say the buzzing) that is considered "yours". Now look in direct experience, where is the yours?

What makes

"my urgling"

more authentic then

"gurgling"

?

What is actually there. Pay close attention to the sensations and wholeheartedly inteonate "my gurling/buzzing/whatever" versus wholeheartedly intonating "gurlging/buzzing/whatever" while paying attention to the direct nonverbal experience. Which description is more direct? Why? Don't settle for intellectual convictions. Keep with it to find what truly feels right.

How can I relate to memories? They are vivid thoughts, emotions, body sensations in immediate experience referencing something past.

Yes, you can relate with them like this :) Works well for normal life.

I feel the belief that these events are still 'me', still affecting 'me'.

Yup they are part of what conventionally is called you. And the conventional sense of self will not go away. What will go away is the experiential belief that it IS a self, rather then a spontaneous emergence within the mysterious whole. Thich Nhat Hanh said something like "a flower is full with everything in the universe except a seperate independent self". That is a good pointer. "A self (sense of self) is full of the whole universe except a sepearate independent self". And memories are one of the more obvious parts of the sense of self, like petals are obvious parts of a flower.