Wandering here and there

[Howigothere]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Reality for me currently is divided in two, 'I' and whatever this 'I' experiences. If there is no I then there must be something real that remains without the I. How is that realized? Or is it already realized? Then why am I not feeling it. Or I am already feeling it but dont know it. It gets confusing after this 😄.

What are you looking for at LU?
So this started in 2019-2020, when I was in conference call with two of my friends and we were randomly chatting. A thought came to me that why do we still think even though we needed to when we worked hard to buy a car, house etc but now living a comfortable life after moving to canada 7 years ago. Well for my friends it was a 10-15 minutes random talk(We all drive trucks btw and have plenty of time on our hands to talk 😄) but for me it took me down the rabbit hole and my life took a turn there. After the phone call, I remember I searched on google "why do we think" as if it never occurred to me before. A short video of OSHO came up. I dont know why but after that I listened to almost every OSHO audio and video talk over next two years while driving 12 hours a day. I thought may be I will get it by listening the next talk and it sure felt like it.

But nothing! Even though I kind of knew what he was talking about I could never say I got it. I was so indulged in this I would go to sleep listening to the talks. I stopped talking to anybody as I thought there is no point in anything else in life. Only this was it. Something happened on two occasions during this period. Both the times I was driving. Fear so immense that I thought I was going to die right there at driving seat. I felt I had to call my mother or someone close otherwise I was going. One time I scrambled for my phone and I turned the music on so loud which brought me back(Later I learned that these were my golden opportunities I missed).

I was listening to this stuff so much in a day, youtube started recommending other teachers. Then I listened to Echart tolle for about a year and read every book of his. I even visited one of his talk in edmonton in 2023. When I came out of the hall, I felt high or drunk. Then I moved to Adiyashanti. Went through all of his youtube talks in about two months. While I was listening, I read every book of his as well when I was at home during my off days. Then came Rupert spira. Just as with others, every talk, every book by him and his teacher Francis Lucile(only few Francis talks). Rupert took me longer because he felt so technical and to the point and I thought I would definitely get something this time. But nothing. It felt so close, like I am going to get it anytime but never got it. Then I incorporated Angelo dilullo while I was still listening to rupert spira. I read about 30 books on this topic from different authers during this time. I knew for sure that all of them were talking about same thing somehow via non-duality, surrender or presence etc. But it still evaded me. My interest disappeared in any type of social media, movies, any other genre of books than this. Then I found Douglus harding's headless way. Read every book and tried every experiment. It made sense to me. I could experientially feel what I had been listening and reading about. But in daily day to day life, it does not work for me because I still feel anxiety,anger,fear,jealousy etc. May be I have listened to so many different guys or May be I am over obsessed or as many teachers would say that its not a THING you get. As OSHO says "You wont be there when IT comes". But after all these years I am still here, so maybe it has not come 😄. And I dont want to keep on quoting teachers as it feels like I am sharing information that I got from someone else which I have not experienced myself(There is lot of temptation to share this info but then I feel I am trying to be intelligent).

I do not know what my question is, but I feel frustrated. I am not sure what to do next(teachings say just stop and be 🤷🏻‍♂️) because I no longer have any interests in my life(children, job, money) but neither I got anywhere in this endeavour. I feel like I made a mistake by following this direction. I could have been living a normal life making money, loving my wife and children(I still do) but it feels like I am going to loose everything eventually. Any tip, pointer, suggestion will be really helpful.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I dont even know what am I expecting from this. I feel like a child who's mother is telling him a riddle " Its colourless, it has got no shape, it does not move etc.". Then the kid goes,"What is it? What is it? Tell me...Tell me...". All excited to know the answer. But little does he know that his mom literally can not tell him. He has to come to it himself. I am not sure if this answers the question.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I suppose I have answered it in my rather long response to the second question. I have not done much of traditional sitting meditation as I have back problems from driving. I tried few times but could not do it. I always felt I am sitting here with headphones on listening to a guided meditation trying to get to some other state. So it did not work for me. But I fell asleep countless times to guided meditation videos if that counts 😄.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Noro]

Hello Howigothere

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.
My name is Rowena and I am happy to be your guide. Please let me know what I should call you

1. Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

2. Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

and "Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)

6. Please answer all questions individually, not in a bundle, as this will assist us both in having a clear dialogue. Also it is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

7. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers. Here's a video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Throughout this exploration the questions that I would like you to answer are written in blue text. But please check and answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text!!

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. And I will do so as well.
What time zone are in? I am in Belgium which is CET
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.




STARTING THE ENQUIRY: EXPECTATIONS

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open. Only fear and expectations can prevent clear seeing of no self.

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What seems to be missing in your life right now?


Looking forward to hearing from you.

Warmly,
Rowena

[Howigothere]

Hi Rowena,
You can call me Jay. I am in MDT canada. Thanks for being my guide.

What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I suppose my seeking will end and I would stop wandering here and there.

What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

A little shift in perception where its noticed that something has happened.

What do you want not to happen?

I have a really young family to take care of. I dont want to leave them in the open because of this.

What are you hoping for?

I am hoping that my guide will understand my point of view in my replies and guide me accordingly.

What seems to be missing in your life right now?

Peace. I worry a lot.

[Noro]

Hi Jay, Nice to meet you here on the forum!

Your expectations /concerns are entirely reasonable, and if at any time there are any niggling feelings that the enquiry is not meeting your needs and expectations your thoughts are welcomed. I would like to make one thing clear though, since we are going to be uncovering the illusion that there is or ever was a separate self entity, I will always be steering the communication back towards that aim.

Now lets get going!

COLORED SOCKS - HOW TO LOOK FOR THE NO SELF IN THE EXERCISES
I will probably be referring to this throughout our inquiry as a reminder.

There is a BIG difference between knowing/believing that there is no self, and seeing that there is no self.
If you can’t SEE for yourself directly, you cannot describe what you see in your own words.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks (or underwear) you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are. Or,
2. You can have a LOOK at your socks and SEE what color they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of our inquiry together, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the actual experience that is right here and right now.


DIRECT OR ACTUAL EXPERIENCE IS THE DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF THE SENSES
Seeing (colors)
Hearing (sounds)
Feeling or Sensing (sensations)
Tasting
Smelling
and
The activity of thinking (but not the content of thought)

Hopefully you are clear about this; if not, please let me know if you would like any further clarification.

Direct Experience is not conceptual, or made of thought.
Direct experiencing happens before thought arrives to describe, interpret, explain it or give it meaning. The moment we attempt to communicate experience we introduce concepts. We then respond or identify with those concepts. Then that experience of responding gives birth to more stories (concepts) to which we respond and so on…



DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF DAILY ACTIVITIES

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities as simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, becoming aware of the experiencing of a cup of coffee:

Seeing a cup; simply= color
Smelling coffee; simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup; simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee; simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee; simply = sound
Thinking about drinking the coffee; simply = thought

Please explore any simple daily activities that can be broken down into these categories of Direct Experience and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

The point here is to understand the difference between what is actually being experienced (Direct Experience or DE) and not what is interpretation (Conventional experience or CE).

Please post several of your own observations in lists exactly like the one above.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[Howigothere]

Hi rowena

Seeing wall- color
Hum of fan-hearing
Feet touching carpet-sensation
Taste of hot tea-sensation
Smell of tea- just sensation/smell

Its hard to do this exercise during day while working. Because I have to focus on work being done.

Thanks
Jay

[Noro]

Hi Jay,

Of course, I understand about work, but I hope you can make some time for the exercises/meditations after work because unless there is an internal motivation to want to learn to look in a new way that is not the conventional understanding of consensus reality it is not going to be so easy to see through the illusion. Motivation is key.

Please continue to do this exercise when you can, 5 minutes here and there looking from your direct experience, as this is what the whole inquiry is based upon. Breaking down sensory activity and interpretation to the basic data coming in through the senses.

Please post a few more sentences in this manner before we move on as in the future I will be asking you to break down what is happening in your direct experience when more complex things arise.

For me now:
Tapping on the keyboard = sound and sensation
Watching the screen and the general visual field around it = colors
Lingering smell of coffee in a cup = smell and color
Lingering taste of coffee = taste
Sitting on chair = sensation
Watching words appear on screen = thinking

Now for you:

Rowena

[Howigothere]

Hi Rowena,

Sound of the passing traffic - just sound appearing and then subsiding in me

Cold air hitting the skin - just sensation arising in same space as the sound

Worrisome thought about life situation - just a voice(sound) saying a bunch of words in same space(associated fear appearing as a sensation)

Sitting on chair - a sensation in the same field(can not distinguish chair from the body if I dont open my eyes)

A faint smell - just a smell( can not describe what it is but only a label can be put on it by thought)

Seeing hands and fingers move - just a movement of color and shapes

Jay

[Noro]

Hi Jay,

Great - I think it is very clear for you.... and we are going to jump directly into inquiry in DE:

Sound of the passing traffic - just sound appearing and then subsiding in me

I love the way you describe this, and I can also relate, but I have to pick up on the languaging, so:
Please could you look at what, in your direct experience, you can find that refers to an actual 'me'.
Is there a separate 'me' that can be found to be located somewhere? Take a look.....
is it somewhere in the body? Where exactly?
Is it always there in the same location?
Does it have an exact shape or size?
Can you find anything in your direct experience, without referring to thoughts and memory, that indicates the actual presence of a "me" other than as a thought?



THOUGHTS - "I AM" LABEL EXPERIENCE
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which thoughts add labels to experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper. As with all the exercises going forward make sure you are comfortable and take a few deep breathes in order to be relaxed. This should not be considered just an intellectual exercise, but a kind of whole-body intuitive exercise attentive to the difference in the two perspectives. And you can't get it wrong!

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots.
For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry
I am thinking
I am writing.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time drop the “I am” label. Here you can see that experience, in simple language, does not require an experiencer. It can be just as it is without the addition of presumption of a self, of an "I".

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
hearing clock ticking
looking at computer screen
feeling hungry
thinking
writing

Finally, compare the two one after the other, first say with the "I am" label and next without the "I am" label: i.e.
"I am walking / "walking"

Pay attention to body sensations, watch what is happening in the body. Really take time to sense the difference. It may be subtle.
What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….." ?
What is the body sensation without the add-on of "I am…."?

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Does one feel intuitively 'truer', more spacious, than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without the labels, in your direct experience?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body between the two ways?


Warm wishes,

Rowena

[Howigothere]

Please could you look at what, in your direct experience, you can find that refers to an actual 'me'.
Is there a separate 'me' that can be found to be located somewhere? Take a look.....
is it somewhere in the body? Where exactly?
Is it always there in the same location?
Does it have an exact shape or size?
Can you find anything in your direct experience, without referring to thoughts and memory, that indicates the actual presence of a "me" other than as a thought?

I can not find an actual me anywhere when I look. There are sounds, sensations, perceptions arising and are seen/felt from "this "point of view.But "This" point of view is seen as Jay's body from third person perspective. It is somehow expected from it to act in certain way from family(to provide) and outer world(work,ethics) etc. Which is kind of binding and makes "me" responsible(This is where a sense of "me" arises). Then I feel like if I let go of sense of "me" and there is only experience(sounds,sensations,perceptions etc.), how will I be acting/reacting in the world in a responsible manner? I may not be able to work properly or take care of my family properly.

I am still doing the exercises you gave me and will keep on doing them. Will report back. There still seems to be something giving directions to the body for doing any action(walking, doing chores etc) when there is no 'I am' added to it.

Thanks
Jay

[Noro]

Hi Jay,

I can not find an actual me anywhere when I look. There are sounds, sensations, perceptions arising and are seen/felt from "this "point of view.

Yes, exactly, this is your direct experience. What is arising directly at any one moment prior to thought overlay of interpretation, assumptions, descriptions etc. This is where we are going to be looking from, this direct experience (DE).

But "This" point of view is seen as Jay's body from third person perspective. It is somehow expected from it to act in certain way from family(to provide) and outer world(work,ethics) etc. Which is kind of binding and makes "me" responsible(This is where a sense of "me" arises).

Yes, this is the conventional perspective of consensus reality upon which a lot of assumptions have been placed, and which we are now investigating together. Please be assured that we are not trying to 'get rid of' conventional reality (CE) but we are looking to get clarity regarding all the unnecessary assumptions that we have taken on which cause a lot of burden on the free flow of the intelligent functioning of the body-mind system. The sense of "me" is a natural interpretation given to a familiar movement of body sensation. But the fact that it belongs to an "actual" me is an assumption.

Then I feel like if I let go of sense of "me" and there is only experience(sounds,sensations,perceptions etc.),

You have investigated into the sense of 'me' with direct experience and couldn't find any actual "me".
Apart from the assumption of "me", Is there anything to let go of? Body sensations will continue as they always have.

how will I be acting/reacting in the world in a responsible manner? I may not be able to work properly or take care of my family properly.

This is a very common fear Jay. Rest assured, these are normal thoughts to have at this beginning stage of inquiry, it is the defensive part of the mind resisting an idea that it finds potentially threatening.

I am still doing the exercises you gave me and will keep on doing them. Will report back. There still seems to be something giving directions to the body for doing any action(walking, doing chores etc) when there is no 'I am' added to it.

Yes, of course. The exercise points to that. I look forward to reading your findings.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[Howigothere]

I tried the exercises. Could not write it down because I was doing them whenever I remembered during the day(Trying not to do them as chores. I have tendency to do that). I will try to answer the findings as reply to the questions.

Does one feel intuitively 'truer', more spacious, than the other, and If so, which one?

I can't say one feels truer than the other but It does feel spacious, as in there is my experience in "front" of it and nothing on the other side and that thing(no-thing) on the other side is me. It kind of goes around back and seems to be on the back side of every experience( visual objects, sounds, touch, taste) Interestingly, when a thought comes I seem to go follow whatever that means that thought is trying to convey. So still in gets entangled in thoughts.
And my life situations are becoming challenging which makes me feel like how would I survive without thought.

What is here without the labels, in your direct experience?

Here is just 'IS'. Even if call it experience, it's something I am naming it. But when experience becomes little uncomfortable, I again become this Jay and start suffering. Sometimes even crying without any reason. I surprise myself suddenly(I don't remember crying in my life except when my father passed away).

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels do not affect the experience. Experience just is. They describe it. But is feels like I would not be able to wade though experience without them.

Did you notice any differences in the body between the two ways?

Not really. A little relaxation perhaps. Body is just part of the experience. The thought as question arises' what happens when there is no body to experience?' . Do the light kind of goes out 😄 what remains?

[Howigothere]

I apologize for the typos. I did not proof read it.

[Noro]

Hi Jay,

Does one feel intuitively 'truer', more spacious, than the other, and If so, which one?
I can't say one feels truer than the other but It does feel spacious, as in there is my experience in "front" of it and nothing on the other side and that thing(no-thing) on the other side is me. It kind of goes around back and seems to be on the back side of every experience( visual objects, sounds, touch, taste) Interestingly,

Good, spacious is what we are looking for. Anything to do with an "I" is an add-on and generally a slight contraction can be felt. It cant be said to be truer rationally, but somehow there is a somatic response, like a feeling of relief.

when a thought comes I seem to go follow whatever that means that thought is trying to convey. So still in gets entangled in thoughts.
And my life situations are becoming challenging which makes me feel like how would I survive without thought.

We are not looking to get rid of thoughts!! Thoughts arise as they do, and they have a purpose. We will just be investigating certain thoughts and looking at the gross assumption of there being an "I", or a 'thinker' to see if this is an actual fact.

What is here without the labels, in your direct experience?

Here is just 'IS'. Even if call it experience, it's something I am naming it. But when experience becomes little uncomfortable, I again become this Jay and start suffering. Sometimes even crying without any reason. I surprise myself suddenly(I don't remember crying in my life except when my father passed away).

Yes, "Just is" is the best way to convey in words.

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels do not affect the experience. Experience just is. They describe it. But is feels like I would not be able to wade though experience without them.

Labels remain, they aren't being disproved. The exercises using direct experience are a practical method to expose the layers of interpretation that have been added on to the pure immediacy of "just this". And thoughts are not always correct. Look at everything that we find on the internet nowadays. Direct experience is a grounding practice where we can get out of overthinking and return to what is underlying everything BEFORE it has been named.

Did you notice any differences in the body between the two ways?

Not really. A little relaxation perhaps. Body is just part of the experience. The thought as question arises' what happens when there is no body to experience?' . Do the light kind of goes out 😄 what remains?

Yes, body is definitely part of the experience and is a good indicator for what is going on relating to thoughts. And as for your question.... indeed, "what remains?" :)

INVESTIGATION WITH AN APPLE
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. Place the piece of fruit in front of you on the table. If you don't have one to hand, you can go online and find a photo of an apple. (Or another fruit)

https://share.google/Iwj6HWcRjo0Zkrqu7

When looking at an apple in the usual way, we are looking at something in the visual field, and we will see that there's color and then we will perceive a shape. Then thinking comes very quickly afterwards with a thought saying "apple" and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

In actual or direct experience we are simply seeing, and the simple act of seeing does not include any interpretations or descriptions. Those are overlayed through thought onto the visual experience which is totally non-conceptual.

In actual fact, nothing is named in direct experience, (think of a baby that is looking around in wonder), however, as a concession, for the sake of communicating we can allow a minimum of thought content, in order to do this exercise; so we can say that colors and shapes are seen, and thinking is also seen but without any thought content.

Actual experience does not refer to thought content (including labels, interpretations and descriptions) about something.

Actual experience refers to the raw data of sound, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thinking arising, but we do not pay attention to the content.

Are you clear about this last point?

So, as you do this apple exercise, is there really an 'apple' here or only color and shape and a thought about 'apple'?
Can an actual 'apple' be found in direct experience?

While thoughts or descriptions are known, what they talk about can't be found in direct experience.

I hope that this is clear for you. Let me know how you get on.

Warmly,
Rowena

[Howigothere]

Hi Rowena,

Are you clear about this last point?

Yes this is clear for me.

Can an actual 'apple' be found in direct experience?

The actual thing(combination of color and shape) is already there in experience before I call it whatever I like. We all just agreed to call it apple when language came along (may as well have called it foof loot or whatever). My parents got it from their parent and taught me and I am teaching my kids to call this combination an apple.

While thoughts or descriptions are known, what they talk about can't be found in direct experience.

This confuses me a little. May be just because how it's worded. Because in direct experience, the combination of color and shape is already there and there will be a sensation of touch, sound of crunch and then taste once I pick it up and bite. There may be thought alongside those ' I am eating an apple' which will be just a thought arising in the same space as all above experience. Suppose if there are two of us sitting on dinner table, and he/she asks me to hand over that apple in bowl, we would be referring to the same color and shape which is already present in our direct experience. So I can not say what thought says is not found in direct experience. Instead it IS there in direct experience before he/she called it an apple.

[Noro]

Hi Jay,

While thoughts or descriptions are known, what they talk about can't be found in direct experience.

This confuses me a little. May be just because how it's worded. Because in direct experience, the combination of color and shape is already there and there will be a sensation of touch, sound of crunch and then taste once I pick it up and bite.

Yes, I agree, the wording is misleading. Please excuse the clunky languaging! In conventional terms, we know what people are talking about when they mention apples. But an apple cannot be found in direct experience since direct experience is direct sensory input. Without words to separate out, identify or describe, there are no apples, just a visual field of colors and shapes, touch/sensations, smell, and eventually taste and more sensations happening. The label always comes afterwards as an overlay.

This exercise is not about undermining conventional reality, it is simply pointing to the experiential immediacy of direct experience prior to interpretation by thought. I hope that clarifies.


HEARING INVESTIGATION

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Or, you can play some music. Allow yourself to relax and open to the whole 'sound field'. Allow yourself to become absorbed into the sound field.

In your direct experience:

Where does it feel that the sound is?

Where does it feel that "I" am?

Can any boundary that can be found anywhere between what seems to be hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'sounds arising'?

Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

Can location or distance be known from simply hearing?

An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can any of these be found doing hearing?

Can a hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

Now ask: What is the difference in your experience between listening and hearing?
What happens to the quality of hearing when you ask yourself this question?
Does attention shift from hearing to the thought space?

Notice any sensations that arise in the body with this question.
Be fully with the sensations in the body, let go of any thoughts
Allow yourself once again to become absorbed in the sounds.

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?
Could anything that is suggested as a hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

What do you find?

Warmly,
Rowena