Help seeing through the separate self

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

Just to add to that, I tend to still focus on trying to feel better and not just accepting whatever I am feeling. The Awakening Curriculum has been good at highlighting the need to accept was is with compassion but I am still finding that this doesn't come naturally. There is a constant movement to try and make feelings "go away" because they are "bad" even though I know that isn't possible! When I do accept them they tend to dissolve but this is the minority of the time.

It will take a while. You say you still focus on "trying to feel better."

Please keep LOOKING here. A 'personal' thought can only point to one place..... an unexplored body sensation that has a label of 'me' attached: "That's the way I feel!" "These are 'my' feelings!" etc. These are obvious pointers. They are all you need.
And if there is some anger, or push back, look at the 'hidden' belief or feelings underneath. There are layers to explore!.

I would respectfully say to forget 'compassion.' If compassion is not present, then it is adding another layer of 'self' judgment.
"I feel shitty..... and now you are saying "I" shouldn't feel shitty, I should feel 'compassionate towards myself"!!!

For me the honest path forward is one of gentle and continued curiosity "what's in the way?"
"I feel shitty".... "Oh, that's interesting, what does this shitty FEEL like?"
and always:
What is noticing all of this?
Let that lead you. It will keep you anchored in your direct experience, not in ideas about states of being that should be strived for. After all, WHO is trying to obtain WHAT?

Can anything be held onto that is an appearance?
What is noticing?
Go there, it is a pointer, and it is open ended, here, now, immediate. Relax into that.


Keep going Ellie,

Keep sharing!

Warm regards,
Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

I would respectfully say to forget 'compassion.' If compassion is not present, then it is adding another layer of 'self' judgment.
"I feel shitty..... and now you are saying "I" shouldn't feel shitty, I should feel 'compassionate towards myself"!!!

Thank you for pointing this out! That's the trouble with watching online videos! I think I have taken this as another thing to try and "get" - the controller stepping in again with something I have to "do right" or achieve.

Can anything be held onto that is an appearance?
What is noticing?

No, an appearance is just that, an appearance, it comes and goes. For example, I felt guilty about something I said to my husband earlier but now that feeling has melted, it was just weather passing by. In the moment it felt "bad" and now it seems insignificant. There is no-thing noticing it, it just arising in awareness.

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

Yes, everything is an appearance in (consciousness, awareness, stillness, emptiness….. ) all names for noticing that continuous effortlessly. Noticing is effortless, if effort is noticed it is an appearance noticed! Play around with that lightly.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

Noticing is effortless, if effort is noticed it is an appearance noticed! Play around with that lightly.

I played around with noticing yesterday. I was able to go into my body more often and sit with feelings of frustration and wanting things to be different. This seems to be coming more naturally but when the body is overwhelmed and flooded with adrenaline how do I look at what is noticing? At this point the controller just seems to take over!

The mind wants to look for the next stage or to see progress. What am I missing when the mind wants to move forward? I know conceptually that it can't "move" forward but the feeling is still there!

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Dear Ellie,

I played around with noticing yesterday. I was able to go into my body more often and sit with feelings of frustration and wanting things to be different. This seems to be coming more naturally but when the body is overwhelmed and flooded with adrenaline how do I look at what is noticing? At this point the controller just seems to take over!

Please don't try and look at or for what is noticing? There is no "at" everything is being noticed, body sensations and thoughts all jumbled up together. Only when things are really quiet, in DE is there a kind of shift and a feeling of noticing of noticing. But in reality, we cannot get away from noticing, ever..... can you see that? All there is is that, (noticing).

My suggestion is when you are caught up in frustration, see that as a pointer: What is frustration actually?
Words make experiences into 'things'. BUT THERE ARE NO THINGS, there is only movement, appearances coming and going.
So to get out of the 'trance' of words, practice shifting attention to DE. I think the visual field works really well, or the auditory one too, especially if there are lots of random noises...... just hear the jazz event of hearing, or the rich visual event of seeing. Move your head slowly from side to side with an open focus to get the feel of constant movement.

The mind wants to look for the next stage or to see progress. What am I missing when the mind wants to move forward? I know conceptually that it can't "move" forward but the feeling is still there!

We have been conditioned like that, for progress, to achieve, etc. You are not missing anything when the mind wants to move forward. There's no 'you' to miss anything, only a program still running about a 'you' and a 'missing', it will take time for that program to run its course, and the more it is noticed.... "ah yes, that's the program" the more it will fade away!

There are no things, only one movement!

Warm regards,
Rowena

[aldertree]

Dear Rowena,

But in reality, we cannot get away from noticing, ever..... can you see that? All there is is that, (noticing).

Yes, I see that. "Trying" to notice is another thought! Noticing just happens.

My suggestion is when you are caught up in frustration, see that as a pointer: What is frustration actually?
Words make experiences into 'things'. BUT THERE ARE NO THINGS, there is only movement, appearances coming and going.
So to get out of the 'trance' of words, practice shifting attention to DE. I think the visual field works really well, or the auditory one too, especially if there are lots of random noises...... just hear the jazz event of hearing, or the rich visual event of seeing. Move your head slowly from side to side with an open focus to get the feel of constant movement.

Thank you, that makes complete sense. Seeing that "frustration" or "wanting progress" are just words making a temporary movement feel like a solid 'thing' is really helpful. Practising that shift to the visual and auditory fields really helps when the progress program starts running.

I actually caught one of those old programs running yesterday. I’ve been looking at the Awakening Curriculum lessons on the Toxic Starting Points and I noticed how deeply I rely on indirect communication - asking leading questions rather than stating my feelings directly - to avoid discomfort and protect feelings. The moment I caught it, I felt a hard tightness in my chest and recognised it as an old, inherited family habit.

Following your pointer, I just sat with the raw sensation in the chest as a physical movement rather than a 'thing' to fix. But I can also see how much emotional conditioning and subtle habit there is around taking up space and being direct.

Since you mentioned looking at The Awakening Curriculum, were you suggesting I look at her material on my own alongside our chats or do you ever integrate her fetter/shadow work directly into guiding sessions? I'd love to know what works best for you!

Warm regards,

Ellie

[Noro]

Hello Ellie,

I actually caught one of those old programs running yesterday. I’ve been looking at the Awakening Curriculum lessons on the Toxic Starting Points and I noticed how deeply I rely on indirect communication - asking leading questions rather than stating my feelings directly - to avoid discomfort and protect feelings. The moment I caught it, I felt a hard tightness in my chest and recognised it as an old, inherited family habit.

This is really good Ellie. The Toxic Starting Point is a really great concept offered by Pernille. My take on that is the settling into 'being' and asking "what needs to be felt that is currently unexpressed?" Often first thing in the morning upon waking up, this can be fairly obvious that there is something a little 'off', something lingering, some subtle grumpiness or something (my experience) and then settling into that. I have experienced it spread out over the body as a kind of subtle soreness in various areas. Allowing that soreness to be there and receive nourishment from having attention placed on it. "Energy flows where attention goes." So by being curious as to where in the body is needing attention, is like bringing energy to vitalize areas that have been stagnant due to tightness, or holding in /or out against life.

Since you mentioned looking at The Awakening Curriculum, were you suggesting I look at her material on my own alongside our chats or do you ever integrate her fetter/shadow work directly into guiding sessions? I'd love to know what works best for you!

I don't use her method directly, but I think that the conversations can be very helpful to listen to. For actual fetter practice I found the very clear method mapped by Kevin Shanilek in his website https://www.simplytheseen.com to be the one I followed. Mostly I just advise the simple going backwards and forwards of thoughts pointing to sensations pointing to hidden beliefs pointing to more subtle sensations. Always simply noticing what is arising. I have found that the fetter method can become a bit of a trap, like a goal of attainment for the spiritual ego.

The one thing I would suggest that you add as a daily practice is to do some "cardiac coherence" breathing. Non-stop breathing, 6 secs inhale and 6 secs exhale with your attention as fully as you can being directed onto the breath. This can really calm and slow everything down and enable more clarity regarding all the different little 'events' appearing. I think this is called "Samatha meditation" in buddhism. This will strengthen and clarify the ability to stay with simply noticing which is where 'lightness of being' is to be found, our 'natural' state of being.

I would like to share one more thing that I have found to be strangely true. Perhaps we might wish to be thought of as being an interesting person who can contribute a lot of worthwhile ideas, so we feel we belong as a 'someone' according to the belief/fear we hold about not belonging. Therefore, any moments where we feel overlooked and not validated can be very wounding to that core ego wound. We will find it coming up at us through different 'themes' again and again until we finally hit that core belief of the ego which is actually exposing a deep truth: "I am uninteresting", "I have nothing to contribute" etc." When there is no more avoiding this core wound/belief, there can be a deep relief that settles in the body.... it is seen as a truth, and once the uncomfortable sensations have abated, it will be known that there is no more need to fight against it. Why is it true? Because of the conviction of there being an "I" that can be rejected, not included, not belonging, not existing etc. It is simply not possible for anything to be rejected, not included, not belonging, not existing when we take the perspective of direct experience. There is no where to go. Only appearances interpreted as such.

Keep sharing,

Warm regards,
Rowena

PS. Where is your farm in the UK? Is the weather affecting things for you? My mum lives just down the road from where the wild fire was on the Suffolk coast.

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

I hope you had a good weekend, I have been very busy entertaining family! Our farm is in Suffolk too, so not far from your mum. We are Mid Suffolk though so no fires here. I hope your mum is okay, we were so sad to hear about Dunwich heath, it is one of our favourite places to go.

Often first thing in the morning upon waking up, this can be fairly obvious that there is something a little 'off', something lingering, some subtle grumpiness or something (my experience) and then settling into that. I have experienced it spread out over the body as a kind of subtle soreness in various areas. Allowing that soreness to be there and receive nourishment from having attention placed on it. "Energy flows where attention goes." So by being curious as to where in the body is needing attention, is like bringing energy to vitalize areas that have been stagnant due to tightness, or holding in /or out against life.

I have been spending some time in the morning, taking a few deep breaths and paying attention to my body before I jump out of bed. It does seem to result in a calmer start to the day (I often have palpitations in the morning which can have a debilitating affect).

Mostly I just advise the simple going backwards and forwards of thoughts pointing to sensations pointing to hidden beliefs pointing to more subtle sensations. Always simply noticing what is arising. I have found that the fetter method can become a bit of a trap, like a goal of attainment for the spiritual ego.

Yes, I think this can be a trap for me, I love having a list of things to tick off and the idea of progress keeps popping up.

The one thing I would suggest that you add as a daily practice is to do some "cardiac coherence" breathing.

I started this yesterday and found it really raised my heart rate during it, which doesn't feel nice, but then I did feel quite calm after. I will try it for a few days and see how I get on. Do you tend to do it several times a day, is there any time that is best?

Therefore, any moments where we feel overlooked and not validated can be very wounding to that core ego wound. We will find it coming up at us through different 'themes' again and again until we finally hit that core belief of the ego

Is this the same as identifying the Toxic Starting Point? A feeling of being overlooked is definitely a common theme, as well as a feeling of lack of worth. But like you say there is no "I" that can feel worthless or overlooked. It is just an old programme running.

which is actually exposing a deep truth: "I am uninteresting", "I have nothing to contribute" etc."

Is this the same as turning it around done during The Work?

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Good morning Ellie,

What a fun co-incidence that your farm is in Suffolk!

I started this yesterday and found it really raised my heart rate during it, which doesn't feel nice, but then I did feel quite calm after. I will try it for a few days and see how I get on. Do you tend to do it several times a day, is there any time that is best?

I think it is pretty normal for the heart beat to raise up a bit in the beginning, there is an alert going on that something different is happening!! Keep at it, whenever you can, you can even do it driving or doing mundane tasks. It is not necessarily to calm the bodymind, but also as something to give attention to in the present moment. The simple act of breathing is always there as an object appearing. There are also numerous videos to be found online stating the benefits, and also to as a visual to follow. You might also find some areas of tension appearing around the mid section of the body as contractions appear and then get released.

Is this the same as identifying the Toxic Starting Point? A feeling of being overlooked is definitely a common theme, as well as a feeling of lack of worth. But like you say there is no "I" that can feel worthless or overlooked. It is just an old programme running.

Yes, that's it!

which is actually exposing a deep truth: "I am uninteresting", "I have nothing to contribute" etc."

Is this the same as turning it around done during The Work?

Yes, I think it is similar to that. It is busting a myth that we have been telling ourselves about how we should appear to others in order not to feel some lack or inadequacy etc., and to accept the limitations we have 'imposed' upon ourselves as not meeting up to some kind of expectations, and be okay with being who we are, as we are without some kind of validating label. Just an old program running!!

You are right on track!

Have a lovely day,
Rowena

[aldertree]

Dear Rowena,

What a fun co-incidence that your farm is in Suffolk!

Yes, isn't the world a small place!

to accept the limitations we have 'imposed' upon ourselves as not meeting up to some kind of expectations, and be okay with being who we are, as we are without some kind of validating label. Just an old program running!!

I have been practising this a little - for example when driving behind someone going really slow I thought: why do they have to drive so slow, I need to get to the station to pick up my daughter, why can't they drive faster? I turned this around to:
I want to drive faster
They should drive faster
They should drive slower.
And then I thought about whether this was true or not. It definitely made me think differently!

I have also been logging internally my body sensations and watching thoughts and reactions run on auto pilot. For instance yesterday my mother in law was feeding her dog scraps off her plate and then licking her fingers. I had a deep feeling of disgust but didn't say anything but just sat and observed the feeling in my body.

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Dear Ellie,

I have been practising this a little - for example when driving behind someone going really slow I thought: why do they have to drive so slow, I need to get to the station to pick up my daughter, why can't they drive faster? I turned this around to:
I want to drive faster
They should drive faster
They should drive slower.
And then I thought about whether this was true or not. It definitely made me think differently!

That is really good! My take on 'true' is that it is like a signal given by the body of a kind of relaxation, that everything is okay as it is, and there's a kind of recognition that this is so and at the same time there is the ability to see the tendency of impatience (they should drive faster) for what it is, simply an old pattern in action.

I have also been logging internally my body sensations and watching thoughts and reactions run on auto pilot. For instance yesterday my mother in law was feeding her dog scraps off her plate and then licking her fingers. I had a deep feeling of disgust but didn't say anything but just sat and observed the feeling in my body.

Awesome :) Isn't it fascinating to watch it all happening!

Warm wishes,
Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

I hope you are well! I have been going back to some the the practises you gave me and one of them is observing the flow of life and observing how my body signals to me which way to go but I am struggling with this a little and wondered if you could point me in the "right" direction!

For a long time I have been working against my body due to my hormones and stress so forcing myself to do things has become the norm. At the time I think I needed to do this as I knew when I did do things it made myself feel better (it was just the thought of it that I didn't like).

I am a lot better now but still feel I am forcing myself. To be clear I run small wholesale bakery by myself which was great whilst I was really unwell as it offered me solitude and time to think and process things. This exact scenario is now working against me and making me feel lonely.

I am at a cross roads about whether to expand and take on someone to work with (with all the added stress that comes with) or to take a completely new direction. Any way long story short, I have been forcing myself for so long to do things that I don't want to do in order to push myself that I don't know if either thing is a real no or not! How do I get back to really being able listen to my body?

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

I don't think that I can point you in any particular direction. But I am happy to help you look closer into the thoughts arising from the present situation.

First of all, let's look at the word/concept of 'direction'. What is that in actuality? A thought/visual image about the future happening now. It is not that planning is not useful, of course it is, but it is helpful to look at the 'motor' behind the planning. Are thoughts about the future arising from curiosity or from a certain inner discontent or uncertainty that is not being fully experienced NOW. The mind can be a real estate artist!!

For a long time I have been working against my body due to my hormones and stress so forcing myself to do things has become the norm. At the time I think I needed to do this as I knew when I did do things it made myself feel better (it was just the thought of it that I didn't like).

I get you here, sometimes it feels like "I" am dragging my body around too! And it is well documented that movement is a wonderful 'cure' for feelings of inertia, depression, stuckness, etc. AND

(it was just the thought of it that I didn't like).

YES!!! Look at all that thought content. Perfectly normal, but it needs to be seen for what it is. Simply thoughts arising, belonging to no-one!

I am a lot better now but still feel I am forcing myself. To be clear I run small wholesale bakery by myself which was great whilst I was really unwell as it offered me solitude and time to think and process things. This exact scenario is now working against me and making me feel lonely.

Can you see there is avoidance to something going on here. Something lacking which a change in circumstances could take care of? What is it at the core of this that is being avoided? Boredom, restlessness, wanting to escape some kind of 'energy' that has not yet been fully explored. This is something really valuable to work with as it hits some deep inner core theme of wanting to escape an inner condition through a change in outward circumstances. Have you seen this pattern play out previously? AND, I am not saying that there shouldn't be a change, but to explore what you are wanting to escape from within yourself. You are getting into deeper inner territory here.

I am at a cross roads about whether to expand and take on someone to work with (with all the added stress that comes with) or to take a completely new direction. Any way long story short, I have been forcing myself for so long to do things that I don't want to do in order to push myself that I don't know if either thing is a real no or not! How do I get back to really being able listen to my body?

So, to get back to really being able to listen to the inner wisdom found in your gut, intuition, heart and mind is to firmly face what all the discontented 'mind-stuff' is trying to distract you from. What's in the way? What's the worst (hidden) belief that you are trying to escape from?

Maybe start here:

"This exact scenario is now working against me and making me feel lonely."

> If I have to continue on like this I am going to ...................................
> And that means that ..........................................
> And if that happens ...........................................
> Then I will ......................................................
And whatever that last worst-case scenario is, then sit with it. Feel the sensations fully, whatever they are.
And remember, it is all trapped energy ready to be released.


I do hope that this is helpful Ellie,

Looking forward to reading how it goes. And please give yourself credit, you are courageously diving deep!

Warm wishes,
Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

Yes looking closer at the thoughts would be most helpful!

First of all, let's look at the word/concept of 'direction'. What is that in actuality?

The word direction is a concept, an idea that time is linear and we are going forwards through time but in actuality we aren't travelling forwards we are always here in the now.

Are thoughts about the future arising from curiosity or from a certain inner discontent or uncertainty that is not being fully experienced NOW

These aren't curious thoughts they are thoughts around a feeling of discontent and that if I "do" something I will feel content in the future. But we can only be content in the here and now.

Have you seen this pattern play out previously? AND, I am not saying that there shouldn't be a change, but to explore what you are wanting to escape from within yourself. You are getting into deeper inner territory here.

Yes I have seen this pattern play out many times, when changing jobs, moving house etc, there is a feeling that if I do this then things will be better.

If I have to continue on like this I am going to ...become exhausted
And that means that...my physical and mental health will decline
And if that happens ...I won't be able to support my family
Then I will ...be letting then down.

Warm wishes
Ellie

[Noro]

Hello Ellie,

Ok, good work there. Now you’ve got your worst case scenario. Just sit with that. You can do some BK ‘The Work’ with it.

Or you can say the phrase to yourself « I will be lettering them down » and feel the sensations that arise in your body and allow them to be there, as a reality.

Or, you can take it further: « and if I let them down ………… » and keep going in that direction as to what would be even worse than that.
Our ‘child’ minds have extraordinary fears and have taken on ideas of all the responsibility landing on our shoulders. We can reason the fears away, but there is still fear energy that needs to be allowed to be released.

Keep going, you’re doing great!

Warmly,
Rowena