seeking freedom

[danielak]

This exercise with time was very helpful. It's true, in the present moment there is no time or a time line. just what is experiencing.

s there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

That was a good question that made me notice that in the moment there is no linearity or past or future, or following event. It's just what is happening now. The past and future and memories are thoughts.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

these are really trigging questions, at te same time the linearity seems soo natural, it's not possible to observe it happening. because in now it's just what is happening now, everything else are thoughts about the time. So this really helped me to see what you're talking about. It's impossible to tel when the present moment starts or end, because it's just what is happening, it doesn't "accumulate experiences" than it creates a beginning and an end. The mind does that and call past. memory/ future.

Now about memory:

What is memory exactly?

I can see clearly that it's just a thought, it cannot be found in actual experience.

What is the memory ‘made of’?

memory are made of other thoughts

WHEN does the memory appear?

it appears spontaneously, but also when you asked me to do this exercise about memory, I had this intention to bring up a memory. But, as you pointed out with previous exercises about intentionality, I cannot tell who decided what memory to bring up, for how long, and I also noticed other thoughts coming along, so I couldn't even hold to the memory topic.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

From actual experience I cannot tell the difference. However, there is another persistent thought that tells me that there is a difference. but again, just another thought.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Gosh, this's a hard one. From direct experience, a memory is just another thought and I cannot know how it refers to something that has happened. But another very resistant thought pops in saying that it's absurd to think that the events from the memory didn't happened. thoughts like, so I didn't have a childhood? or the mark from a surgery in my ankle is not from a surgery that I had in the past? These thoughts are very loud and confuses me because the exercise about the present moment was very convincing that there is just now...Sorry, I'm going to thoughts explanations!! but just wanted to share what came up. And I know they're just thought too!
About the future:

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

just thoughts, based on patterns of thoughts that create another thought with predictions

WHEN does the future thought appear?

That's clear to see the future is just an idea, it never appears.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

again, it's just thoughts, but maybe patterns of thoughts that creates predictions, which are also thoughts, as I mentioned before.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

I cannot tell (thoughts of confusion appeared, but as direct experience, they're just more thoughts.

Do we therefore conclude there is a little “storm-self” inside each cloud that owns the rain?

Tat was very helpful! I got your point. No, there is no boundaries nor owner of the experiences....

s “direct experience” a state? Or is it what is happening before thought calls it a state?

direct experience is always happening, what moves is attention, as you pointed . I cannot spot hearing, seeing, thinking....

[graceabounds]

Very very good Daniela.

From direct experience, a memory is just another thought and I cannot know how it refers to something that has happened. But another very resistant thought pops in saying that it's absurd to think that the events from the memory didn't happened. thoughts like, so I didn't have a childhood? or the mark from a surgery in my ankle is not from a surgery that I had in the past? These thoughts are very loud and confuses me because the exercise about the present moment was very convincing that there is just now...Sorry, I'm going to thoughts explanations!! but just wanted to share what came up. And I know they're just thought too!

Excellent. No need to apologize. What you’ve written shows you’re actually looking instead of trying to produce the “right” answer. I appreciate that greatly. :)

Now stay with the exact question.
How is it known that a memory thought refers to something that happened?

NOT Did those events happen?…

Those are different questions.:)

The first is about what is known now.
The second is about what is believed.

Right now, what is actually present?
>A thought-image of childhood.
>Perhaps sensations in the body.
>Perhaps the image of the scar.
>Thoughts saying, “Of course this happened!”
All of that is present.

Where is the actual childhood?
Can it be found anywhere except as present thoughts, images, and sensations?

That is not saying there was no childhood! It is saying that the childhood itself is not present now, only thoughts about it are.

The scar is present.
The thought “this scar came from surgery” is present.
Can you see the difference?

The scar can be seen and touched. The surgery cannot. The surgery is known through memory, testimony, photographs, records… all of which also appear now as present experience.

Notice what the resistant thought is doing:
“So are you saying my childhood never happened?!”

No one has said that. That thought is trying to force a conclusion. Stay with the investigation.

A simpler example would be suppose you remember eating breakfast yesterday. Can you produce yesterday’s breakfast? Or is there only a present memory of breakfast? The investigation isn’t denying breakfast. It’s asking what is actually available now.

These thoughts are very loud

Are they?
Take a Look.

[danielak]

Thank you for the clarification Becca!. While doing the exercise I could see that past is a thought, I cannot experience the past right now, I can experience sensations/emotions that this thoughts produce in my body, like a memory of joke can make me laugh. Or as thinking about the breakfast I had yesterday. Yes, I cannot reproduce the breakfast, but the memory of it is present.
I'm relief that I don't need to questioned that what happened (past) really happened. but this questions still unclear to me:

How is it known that a memory thought refers to something that happened?

. that is similar to the other question about the difference between a memory thought and other thoughts. I'm able to tell and see the diference between something that has happened and something that hasn't, but how I make this differentiation I cannot tell, and that still a bit confusing to me.
About the loud thoughts: looking behind the metaphor and though experience: there are thoughts that makes me agitated, tense, angry that are persistent or repetitive , and thoughts that relax me, makes me smile...They're just thoughts and thoughts about thoughts, but I can experience in reality how I feel with them, let's say a "good" thought makes me feel "good", a "tragic" thought, makes me feel "bad"...

[graceabounds]

I can experience sensations/emotions that this thoughts produce in my body,

Can you see that you’ve already slipped one step beyond direct observation?

Look again. What is directly experienced?

> A thought appears.
> Sensations are present. Perhaps tightening in the chest, warmth in the face, laughter, heaviness…
But can you directly observe that the thought caused the sensation?

I'm able to tell and see the diference between something that has happened and something that hasn't, but how I make this differentiation I cannot tell

Without referring to external evidence, how does experience itself distinguish them? :)

You may discover that the feeling of “this is a real memory” is itself something that simply appears. It has a certain flavor of familiarity or certainty.

Can ‘you’ make that feeling appear?
Can ‘you’ decide how convincing it feels?
Or does that, too, simply arise?

When the thought “I had breakfast yesterday” appears, can you find anything from yesterday in direct experience? Or is there only a present thought, appearing now?

[danielak]

Can you see that you’ve already slipped one step beyond direct observation?

Right now I'm trying to observe what is happening: There is the sound of the ventilator, I feel a tightness in my chest, thoughts about how to just observe, thoughts about my worry about my stepdaughter is what is causing the chest to be tight, but that it's also a thought, a thought about remembering to grab the key, and a thought about focusing on my senses, and only when I do this is that I can notice my feet moving "involuntary", or the sensations in my leg. I cannot tell what comes first the thought or sensation, they're just here. Im trying to look at me being worry about my stepdaughter, I can't tell what "worry" really means, one more thought/label...anyway, I was just trying to write as I observe...

About a real memory, ok I think I got it, I don't have to know HOW I know what is a a real memory or something imaginary, I just know. That is the point right? And that makes sense, the diference is clear, and it doesn't need my mind "judging" what is real or not. This's interesting because I was trying to find the way "I" make this distinction, and I was thinking that I was missing a point. But it's actually the opposite, I don't decide anything, I don't explain what makes real or not, it just raise. :)

[graceabounds]

Great. :)

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all direct experience) and report back how you go.

Right now I'm trying to observe what is happening

Is the I necessary for this?

[danielak]

HI Becca,

I took sometime yesterday and today to do the exercise.
Is it possible that you start to have an opening , little by little? Because, while doing it, I could realize how many things were happening at the same time, seeing, hearing, feeling...and a lot of thinking. I could realize how I don't stop thinking, and many time nonsense things, so random, nonstop. But to notice the image, smell, sensations... I had to put an intention, or a though, like " let me notice sound" than I could realize the sound I wasn't paying attention to, or sensation, like "what am I feeling?" than I could bring my attention to the clothes touching my skin, or the movement of my feet and legs as I walk, and mentally I was repeating "sensation" or "image" depending of what I was experiencing . At the same time it was a bit "robotic" spending some hours labeling image, sound, sensation, taste, smell and thoughts, however it made me notice the constancy of all happening at the same time, involuntary , I could notice the fluidity of all that happening , and specially my thoughts . Again, it was a kind of a different perspective, but not a awakening... And again it didn't feel natural thinking of the word image and focus my attention on what I was seeing, or thinking of sound and paying attention on the sounds.... but it did give me a different perception on the experiences, that they're just happening...
Are some awakenings that happens like that, that happens gradually or there is an "aha" moment where you just get it?

[graceabounds]

There is no prescription for how seeing occurs, it is different for everyone. It is simply already the case. For some it is a big event, for others a series of smaller ahas and occasionally nothing at all that could be pointed to but is clear in restrospect.

Take a look again at the expectations for how this is envisioned to happen? :)

Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise, otherwise search the internet for a picture of one.

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.
This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

[danielak]

You're right about the expectation. I can see that I'm making projections about how it would be once "I'm free" and what I also notice is a big fear of not being able to see the true about the non-self. And what if you keep sending exercise and I still not being able to see the truth? what if you just tell me , there is nothing else I ca do for you, and I stay in this "limbo" where the illusion is clear but I can't see through that...I know these are all just thoughts but they have a strong energy and I have been feeling bit unsettle. Last three days I had insomnia, with is unusual for me. Not saying that it's all related to it, there are hormones influences as well, and life situations, but I guess I have been shaken, maybe this's a good sign, I hope so.
However, I know that from the direct experience perceptive there are just thoughts, and they're not real...
I did the apple exercise and, once again, it was helpful. it became more clear to me the diference between direct experience and thoughts a that label them..
So the only things that can be know for real are image, thoughts, sound, taste....everything else are mind creations. When I do the exercise I can see what you're pointing to, but I'm still not being able to incorporate it .
Particularly yesterday I was very lost in thoughts, and this frustration and fear of not getting it. For a moment I could notice that there were just thoughts, just a story, I could think from direct experiences, "thoughts", "sensations ", and they became impersonal but didn't last long and I was lost in my thoughts again...

[graceabounds]

You don’t need to sustain anything. The thought “I need to get this” is the thing being investigated.

Now, about the fear. Look more closely.
Right now, when the thought “what if I never get this?” appears what happens in the body?

Go underneath the label ‘fear’ or ‘anxiety’… what is the direct experience?
Where exactly is it felt? Chest? Throat? Belly?
Is it warm, cold, vibrating, contracting, pulsing?
Does it stay still, or is it constantly changing?

Can you find the one who is afraid of failing? Who is afraid of being left out?

What is the direct experience of being lost in thought?


Throughout the day, when a thought about "I" comes up, replace the letter!
"I want to have this" -> "O want to have this"
Can "O" want to have anything?
No.
How then could "I" want to have anything?

"I don't like that"-> "A don't like that"
Can "A" dislike anything?
No.
How come there is an idea that "I" can dislike anything?

Observe this throughout the day and report what comes up.

[danielak]

When I thought about the fear of "not getting it" I had an impulsive reaction and tears came out , it was like a wave that came and passed fast. I couldn't feel it for too long and the reaction was basically this kind of a fast energy discharge and tears...and it didn't stay , after the tears it kind of went away.

Can you find the one who is afraid of failing? Who is afraid of being left out?

I cannot find The Who. That was interesting because, after having this "crisis", the next day I was thinking about it and it looked so silly. And I could see that it was just another thought that got sticked and with a strong identification, but the next day it was just a thought, and I could see it clearly. there was no "I" afraid.
However,"I" could observe it when the emotions/thoughts passed (maybe it was just a different thought replacing it). Which guides me to your next question

What is the direct experience of being lost in thought?

. I guess It's been much more focused on the thoughts. The direct experiences keep happening regardless of my state, I keep seeing, hearing, smelling ... , but at the sometime there is a difference of "being aware" of thoughts than being entangled or lost in it...I guess I don't pay attention to the others senses, but have a hyper focus on the thoughts. And when I get cough in a thought and it became very real, I start to feeling it as the emotions comes, the fear thought, comes with body sensation, as we talked before, sometimes body contraction, tension in my face and chest..and it makes look very real.
About the letters exercise when I first read to change I for O, I thought it was a zero, and that was funny because really zero cannot want anything because nit does't exist, so I used it during my experimentation. When I was realizing that I was thinking the I thought, I changed it for 0, and I noticed two effects, first is that changed the focused from what I was thinking to the practice itself and the jokes about letters and number, and second that I was able to detached from the thought and questioning if "I" was the real who, and for a moment I could see that the thoughts weren't referring to a real self but they're just another thought.

[graceabounds]

Very very good. The inquiry has now become less about solving a philosophical puzzle and more about looking directly at what is happening.

However,"I" could observe it when the emotions/thoughts passed

Is there an observer that exists apart from the observing?


Whenever a thought begins with “I…”
Pause. Before finishing the sentence, look. Not at the thought itself, but at what it is referring to.

Can anything be found other than another thought, sensation, or image?

Don’t try to stay in that seeing. Just look, over and over.

[danielak]

that was a good practice, because I could realize that I was thinking and then this thought about the zero-self would come as an "observer", even thought it was helpful to identify when a thought about I was present, but then it also became an "entity" as you pointed out, then the zero-self was thinking. In few moments yesterday there was no "identification" with the thoughts , there was just random thoughts passing by, some of them had a "strong energy" ......
If's funny, as I write there is a strong tendency to write "I could observe....." even tough that was not what I experienced, there was just thoughts passing by, and it felt more "real". Before it was like being lost in the story...see I can't help myself now to write as if there's an I.."I was lost". As I write the identification is there, but it wasn't in many moment yesterday.
And as I write I can do the exercise right now, the I thought is here, it refers to a memory, there is definitely an identification and if I didn't have it "I " wouldn't know what or how to write. That's funny, if it's not to describe the memory, the story, the I identification I don't know what to write... I'm gonna stop here, this's getting confusing. But anyway, I'll keep doing the exercise.

[graceabounds]

Yes, keep noticing the thoughts and what specifically in direct experience makes them ‘strong’… what happens in these times?

As for subject-object in language, yes, that is common to notice. The communication will continue in everyday conversations, but notice each time that what it represents to is a hollow thing.

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper. This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”. For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

[danielak]

Good morning,

keep noticing the thoughts and what specifically in direct experience makes them ‘strong’… what happens in these times?

I'll keep looking and report it later. Yesterday, I was very distracted, anxious, irritated, and even though I was thinking about the practices of direct observation, I couldn't focus, I couldn't really pay attention, as if I get into an autopilot mode. One situation that I see this clearly happening is when I crave for food/ emotional eating. I know that it's an emotional response, and that I should just pay attention to it, but it comes this impulse of not wanting to stop and look. the same happened yesterday or when I'm too anxious, even knowing that I should just look at it, as if I get into this mode that I just can't do it., I even get confused and lost about how to do the practice... And I think I know what you would say.. lol..."so, there is one that wants to do the practice and another "part" that doesn't? is there two entities? or something like that. ..lol...I know they're just thoughts, but it's how it's operating , and that's on the way of just staying with direct observation.

I just did the exercise and here are the answers:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

When I read the question I already knew the "right" answer, but I really wanted to be truthful in my answer, and comparing both, I could see that one with just verbs feels truer. it's clearly just what was happening. The one with "I", I noticed that the I wasn't clear who "it" was, I could see that it was a thought too.
[/quote]2. What is here without labels?[/quote] Just the experience of what was happening

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The labels just describe it

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I I couldn't notice a difference from the first to the second exercise.But in both cases I cold notice having deep breaths, I was more attentive to what was happening in my body, but not sure if it was different or if I wasn't paying attention to the difference.