Help seeing through the separate self

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

Yes that would be great!

Warmly,
Ellie

[Noro]

Here you are :)

FINAL (CHECKING-OUT) QUESTIONS

Here are the questions. Your answers will be shared with other guides who may have questions.
Please relate your answers as much as possible to your direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?


5) Describe decision and give examples from experience.

Describe intention and give examples from experience.

Describe free will and give examples from experience.

Warm wishes,

Rowena

Describe choice and give examples from experience.

Describe control and give examples from experience.


6) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your experience.

7) What makes things happen? How does it work?

8) Anything to add?

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

Thanks for this. I will answer these as soon as I can and get back to you!

Warm wishes
Ellie

[Noro]

That's great Ellie, take your time. :)

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

FINAL (CHECKING-OUT) QUESTIONS

Here are the questions. Your answers will be shared with other guides who may have questions.

Please relate your answers as much as possible to your direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It starts as young children and realising we are separate from our mothers as we explore the world. We begin being taught labels and how to ask for things. We are taught what is mine and what is yours. The separate self is a biological phenomena intended to keep the body safe from harm and so we can navigate the world. It can feel like it is behind the eyes or in the head as this is where the main senses enter the body - seeing, hearing, tasting and smelling. I now see it as an illusion. The mind adds more and more labels onto objects & emotions to protect us, but this can make us become prisoners of our own minds, not able to truly see life as it really is, one continuous movement.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels freeing, there is a feeling of openness and expansion. At the beginning I had an idea of what no separate self was, but through direct looking I was able to see that the self is an illusion. There is no little me inside my head pulling the strings. Everything is just happening - thoughts, feelings and emotions come and go, over which there is no control. Reactions still occur but this is part of life. There is more empathy towards others as they also have no control.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Looking directly at thoughts and seeing they had no substance, when I looked at what thoughts were there was no-thing there, just space, a beingness, the vibration of life.

Also when looking at my core beliefs and seeing how they just run automatically and that there was no control over emotions and reactions.

5) Describe decision and give examples from experience.

Decisions are made automatically by the bodymind. After a decision is made a thought may occur that “I” made that decision but this happens after it has been made so there may be an illusion of decision. For example, “I” decided to give up my career and start my own business. It may seem that was a decision made but it was the result of so many things some of which there may have been awareness of and some of which there wasn't.

Describe intention and give examples from experience.

Again an intention to do something occurs in the bodymind and a thought may occur after that “I” intended to do that. For example, “I” intended to go shopping yesterday but then I didn't go. I don't know why I didn't go, there were just lots of things that occurred that meant it didn't happen in the end.

Describe free will and give examples from experience.

There is no free will. Decisions, intentions, choices and reactions occur automatically in response to a million things that came before and over which there is no control. There may be a feeling of free will but when looked at closely it can be seen that it doesn't exist. The brain just labels it is such. For example, I am free to work or not work, I am free to have children or not. I “choose” to work and have children but I have no control over the circumstances which lead to those things happening.

Describe choice and give examples from experience.

As with the previous answers there is no choice by a self, by a me. When doing the drinks investigation it was clearly seen that although “I” thought there was choice there was in fact none.

Describe control and give examples from experience.

There is no control, just like the weather can't be controlled, there can be no control over what is going to happen next. For example, thoughts pop up, sometimes they are “nice” and sometimes they aren't but I don't have any control over which ones come up.

6) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your experience.

As there is no free will, choice or control there can't be any responsibility for anything. Thoughts pop up, emotions play out and reactions occur but as there is no control over them, there can't be any responsibility either. This has been seen time and time again. For example, I'm not responsible for the mood I wake up in in the morning. The mood I'm in can then affect the rest of the “choices” that are made that day but there is no responsibility there. And in the same way, there is no control over other people and how their reactions may map out how the day goes. There is just no way of knowing what is going to happen.

7) What makes things happen? How does it work?

Nothing and everything makes things happen, life is a mystery. There is no understanding it or how it works. Life just flows as one continuous movement.

8) Anything to add?

Thank you to Rowena for being a wonderful, patient guide, directing me to look and staying with me to look deeper when it was needed. There has been fear, there has been tears, there has been joy, thank you so much for going on this rollercoaster of a journey with me!

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Thank you for your kind words Ellie, it is a great pleasure to be doing this inquiry with you. I will now pass these answers over for some other guides to take a look and see if there might be anything that they would like to clarify.

Warmly,
Rowena

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

There are no questions from the other guides.

An admin from LU will contact you with an invitation to join the LU FB group if you are interested.

It is good to keep inquiring and clarifying this, as you know, this is just the beginning.

If you ever have any questions, you can always ask anyone on the FB group, or reach out to me. Like I already said, I am very happy to be there should anything come up that you would like to investigate with someone.

Below are some excellent resources for further exploration. Go with what resonates?

Simply Awake app - Free app for your phone that contains dozens of meditation that will help you to keep looking deeper.

Also a great video from Angelo Dilullo on this process and how it deepens on its own, if not resisted, YouTube: Simply Always Awake "Self and No-Self"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X_Xpd10pV0&t=38s

If you're interested in the fetters go to Kevin Shanilek's website for information:
https://simplytheseen.com/

Also a great video conversation with Ilona and Kevin Shanilek:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xWfBHN6oRk

Perfectly Okay.Org:
https://perfectlyokay.org/ - A free, supportive community that has many different modalities and meetings.

There are a number of zoom groups if you have questions and/or would like to participate in conversation with others who have either been through the LU guiding or who are currently undergoing the process with a guide.

Vince Schubert has three weekly meetings. Please contact him via email:
vinceschubert@gmail.com for a link and schedule. And also look at his YouTube page.

Luchana & Lubo have group on Thursdays. Please contact Luchana at:
luchanauzunova@gmail.com

Ilona holds a monthly meetings, contact:
admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link and schedule.

There is also the Awakening Curriculum run by Pernille and Todd Lent Damore.
https://theawakeningcurriculum.com

Also, you might consider guiding yourself at some stage. If you would like to find out more about guiding please don't hesitate to contact me.

Warm wishes,
Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

Sorry I haven't replied until now but I have had a busy couple of days and I think it has also been good to let it sink in! Thank you so much for everything! If I want to continue working with you on anything should I contact you on this thread or start a new one on the Unleashed forum?

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

It’s good to hear from you. We can continue on this thread whenever you like.

Have a lovely day!

Rowena x

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

I hope you’re doing well!

I’ve worked thought fetter 1 and now starting fetter 2 lessons using Pernille’s Awakening Curriculum. Passing through the gate with your support was so foundational, and as I dig into the mechanics of doubt, I’m seeing some very familiar patterns pop up.

Specifically, I’ve found my primary safety strategy -"The Controller" - is still very active and it’s been fascinating to catch it attempting to manage its own dissolution and the fetter work itself by turning this into a long to do list, of tasks to complete and tick off so "I" can "move onto" the next stage!

I’d love to have you as a mirror occasionally as this unfolds, if you still have capacity for occasional check-ins?

Warmly,

Ellie

[Noro]

Dear Ellie,

Lovely to hear from you, and I love your approach to the 'mechanics of doubt', and seeing the familiar patterns arising.
'Control' is a big one...... have you ever found a "controller"?
Have you ever found anything more than a contracting against what is; what has been; or what might happen, plus a narrative?

I would be very happy to be a mirror, when ever you feel like sharing. I definitely have the capacity for a check-in.

I would also like to share with you the name of a very short book (89 pages!) that I have just read by J P Jakonen called "Already Home." He discusses the 'mechanics' of the illusory self in the most wonderfully clear way that I have ever come across. The 'mind' loves a map to follow, at least mine does!

Look forward to hearing from you,

Warm regards,
Rowena

[aldertree]

Dear Rowena,

Thank you so much for this. It’s funny you ask about the controller, because today provided the ultimate real-time test. Within just a few hours, I experienced a series of physical contractions: a tight chest when a customer stood outside my gate smoking (I live on the family farm), a sudden heart-jolt of panic when someone walked past the window while I was watching a fetters video and an intense wave of heat and nausea when a last-minute change in family plans left me feeling excluded.

Looking closely at what actually happened - in every single instance, there was just a raw physical contraction in the body, followed instantly by a mental narrative trying to explain, fix or assign blame for the sensation ("They shouldn't be there," "I'm going to be judged," "Why am I feeling sick?").

When I look for the actual "Controller" behind it all, I can't find a person or a central manager anywhere. There’s just the contraction against what is and the story trying to manage it.

Thank you also for the book recommendation - it sounds wonderful and very aligned with how my mind likes to see the mechanics laid out, I will check it out!

I’d love to keep checking in as these patterns pop up.

Warm regards,
Ellie

[Noro]

Dear Ellie,

When I look for the actual "Controller" behind it all, I can't find a person or a central manager anywhere. There’s just the contraction against what is and the story trying to manage it.

Yes, This is the way it goes Ellie, and that controlling mechanism goes deep, so be patient. It is all movement, appearances of contraction and thoughts reflecting some subject matter, and belonging to no one. An old mechanism, slowly running itself down.

Do you remember the exercise of GREEN, I think the following question is a really good one to ask oneself. "Do these thoughts have a direct correspondence to what is actually happening here and now?"

I look forward to continuing our conversation.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[aldertree]

Dear Rowena,

Do you remember the exercise of GREEN, I think the following question is a really good one to ask oneself. "Do these thoughts have a direct correspondence to what is actually happening here and now?"

Yes I remember that task! I guess I hadn't thought to apply it to thoughts! No the thoughts don't have a direct correspondence with reality. The thought said - they shouldn't be there, but in reality there was just a person standing there.

I think doing the first fetter lessons has brought up a lot of old stuff, looking deeply at what causes activations in me and then what my core beliefs are has caused a lot of contracting. But I suppose all this stuff has to come up in order to be released. Thoughts are just very sticky though and I still get swept away by them.

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[aldertree]

Just to add to that, I tend to still focus on trying to feel better and not just accepting whatever I am feeling. The Awakening Curriculum has been good at highlighting the need to accept was is with compassion but I am still finding that this doesn't come naturally. There is a constant movement to try and make feelings "go away" because they are "bad" even though I know that isn't possible! When I do accept them they tend to dissolve but this is the minority of the time.

Warmly,
Ellie