Hi Rowena,
Sorry about that mistake with different colour protocol. Outcome resulted from not checking using preview button before submitting.
Will do better.
What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future?
None * except content
Yes
If there is difference, how is that difference is known exactly?
Content: is given attention in the mind to analyse based on CE .
Yes, exactly. You have seen this, so now look below at another answer you gave
How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Long time belief based on my body/mind "development" ; through education (language constructs based in time tense/ consensus thinking/conditioning and practicing "getting recall function" calibrated "right or wrong".
What is all the above when considered in direct experience, in the way we are doing this inquiry?
Just thoughts. Thinking thinking justifying- about concept of my theory on constructing a beleief.
Does it require further thought to affirm the apparent "reality" of the memory thought
More thinking ( more thoughts) not required as logic of my mind knows of "it's reality".
Are you sure about no more thinking required?
My answer previously was another CE thought stream. An "ironic" message (answer to the mind) : "no more thoughts could convince mind otherwise about it's false reality". Crazy to want to debate with a thought about thought and memory.
I don't know.
DE sees reality as this now: no past or future here. Recognising thinking about past/memory as thoughts not sensations of experience here.
What is the logic of your mind based on?
Learned concepts.
What is 'mind' made of? (No scientific analysis here please)
DE: Cannot find 'mind'.
Can find attention in thinking.
CE: Thinking is word/pointer/symbol to 'mind processing thoughts arising".
REMEMBER: Thoughts can include mental images.
What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
Content.
'Future thought ' does not have "consensus of belief" .
Does a thought about 'past' have a 'consensus of belief'? How would this work, other than as a thought that says, "yes, everybody knows that happened."
Answer in CE *content of thought.
Thought(s) of past, when verbalised to others, feedback as affirmation.
Thoughts of future, when verbalised, feedback as guessing.
DE : both past & future just thoughts arising
Now, think of a flying pink elephant flying across the room, let that image go, and now return to the memory thought.
Without a thought to interpret, what is the actual difference between those two thoughts?
Their content and beliefs.
What is content and belief made of?
Apart from content, there is an added factor that supports the difference between a random thought like 'pink elephant' and a memory that is believed.
A belief is a thought, but a thought is not a belief. There is a difference.
In your direct experience, here and now, think of a random neutral thought that doesn't concern you.(That's a CLUE)
Some news item perhaps. Now let that thought go, and now think a memory thought.
Please look really carefully, you can alternate between the two experiences.
What is your full DE experience when you think of the neutral thought?
What is your full DE experience when you think of the memory thought?
How do the two experiences differ?
Look to the body!
Memory thought can often replay the sensations I experienced : the seen , felt, heard, smelt..as known/familiar sense. Body reacts/responds.
Random thought doesn't receive that attention or response in body as familiar.
Struggling in thoughts. Fears of no "time" - what may happen..."letting go" into this.
Thoughts : How can this be reality?
Identity thoughts: My beliefs & conceptual thinking are necessary to live.
Thoughts are not the problem, it is believing in thoughts that is the problem.
Unpack "struggling in thoughts." In DE how does it FEEL to struggle in thoughts?
DE -
feeling confused and noticing distracting into thoughts to cope with this. Change to beliefs and safety net of known.
Body sensations- itching and attention shifting (especially distracting into thinking).
Good noticing with Body sensations here: uncomfortable body sensations and then attention goes to mind to divert away from the body sensations.
The commitment and curiosity unchanging.
Trusting too.
Staying here.
Good.
Are 'you' your thoughts?
Are 'you' your beliefs?
Are 'you' your body sensations?
Nope.
Take time out and do some slow deep breathing. Focus your attention on the breath for a while?
Allow yourself to relax into DE of the visual field, no labels, simply a tapestry of colors.
Quietly look again at the above questions.
Warm regards,
Doug
River of thought
Re: River of thought
Hello again Doug,
Good going with the above.
This last inquiry is a good practice to bring to mind in order to bring clarity when 'lost' in a thought stream.
Direct experience doesn't try and 'get rid of' anything, but one of the positive 'side'-effects is that direct seeing clarifies what is actually happening to see more clearly the movement of attention and what that implies. i.e. thoughts jumping to conclusions and into thought stories.
INTRODUCTORY BODY MEDITATION
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or, if possible, mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Can a boundary be detected between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - an inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - an outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
Warm regards,
Rowena
Good going with the above.
This last inquiry is a good practice to bring to mind in order to bring clarity when 'lost' in a thought stream.
Direct experience doesn't try and 'get rid of' anything, but one of the positive 'side'-effects is that direct seeing clarifies what is actually happening to see more clearly the movement of attention and what that implies. i.e. thoughts jumping to conclusions and into thought stories.
INTRODUCTORY BODY MEDITATION
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or, if possible, mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Can a boundary be detected between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - an inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - an outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
Warm regards,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
-
NearClear101
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Fri May 29, 2026 4:34 am
Re: River of thought
Hi Rowena,
INTRODUCTORY BODY MEDITATION
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or, if possible, mental images:
Answering these questions here, paying attention to sensations with eyes closed.
Can it be known how tall the body is?
No - tallness not sensed.
Does the body have a weight or volume?
No.
In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No. Not in DE without seeing.
Can a boundary be detected between the body and the clothing?
"Detection" as in sensing? Touching sensation finds different textures and warmth.
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No. My aha moment on body boundary.
Is there an inside or an outside?
Body inside or outside? No.
"Mouth" inside or outside. Sensation of touch with tongue is different.
If there is an inside - an inside of what exactly?
Good question pointing to a what/thing/matter.
I can not find a what.
Only touch detecting difference in texture and/or warmth
If there is an outside - an outside of what exactly?
No-thing found to have attribute of outside.
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
A me.
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Looking very carefully. Seeing shapes and colours ( does not "match mental image" !).
Not me.
Some shape/form, colours and light - that is seen. That, looking "at" into a mirror is seen.
2D image of light is an experience of the body.
Warm regards,
Doug
INTRODUCTORY BODY MEDITATION
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or, if possible, mental images:
Answering these questions here, paying attention to sensations with eyes closed.
Can it be known how tall the body is?
No - tallness not sensed.
Does the body have a weight or volume?
No.
In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No. Not in DE without seeing.
Can a boundary be detected between the body and the clothing?
"Detection" as in sensing? Touching sensation finds different textures and warmth.
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No. My aha moment on body boundary.
Is there an inside or an outside?
Body inside or outside? No.
"Mouth" inside or outside. Sensation of touch with tongue is different.
If there is an inside - an inside of what exactly?
Good question pointing to a what/thing/matter.
I can not find a what.
Only touch detecting difference in texture and/or warmth
If there is an outside - an outside of what exactly?
No-thing found to have attribute of outside.
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
A me.
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Looking very carefully. Seeing shapes and colours ( does not "match mental image" !).
Not me.
Some shape/form, colours and light - that is seen. That, looking "at" into a mirror is seen.
2D image of light is an experience of the body.
Warm regards,
Doug
Re: River of thought
Hi Doug,
DEEPER BODY INVESTIGATION
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time, do this investigation when you are feeling relaxed and grounded. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.
Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all, Or just thoughts interpreting sensations as ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just thoughts about a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
(9) Are the sensations localized in an actual space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only seeing, and thinking about seeing, labelled 'room' and sensations appearing without any location?
Once again:
This is not to question the existence of a body, it is about discovering our fundamental direct experience of a body.
Doug I am traveling and on my phone today,
So the questions are not colored as my phone is not so easy for me to use!
Warm regards,
Rowena
And what does a ‘me’ refer to?
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
A me.
DEEPER BODY INVESTIGATION
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time, do this investigation when you are feeling relaxed and grounded. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.
Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all, Or just thoughts interpreting sensations as ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just thoughts about a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
(9) Are the sensations localized in an actual space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only seeing, and thinking about seeing, labelled 'room' and sensations appearing without any location?
Once again:
This is not to question the existence of a body, it is about discovering our fundamental direct experience of a body.
Doug I am traveling and on my phone today,
So the questions are not colored as my phone is not so easy for me to use!
Warm regards,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
-
NearClear101
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Fri May 29, 2026 4:34 am
Re: River of thought
Hi Rowena,
Enjoy your travels.
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
A me.
And what does a ‘me’ refer to?
A collection of thoughts, memories and mental images. With content of a living sepaate self entity that is identified by attributes like name( me/I), age, height ... history.
That "body" as "me thoughts."
I'll progress with deeper body investigation and post my responses later.
Warm regards
Doug
Enjoy your travels.
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
A me.
And what does a ‘me’ refer to?
A collection of thoughts, memories and mental images. With content of a living sepaate self entity that is identified by attributes like name( me/I), age, height ... history.
That "body" as "me thoughts."
I'll progress with deeper body investigation and post my responses later.
Warm regards
Doug
-
NearClear101
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Fri May 29, 2026 4:34 am
Re: River of thought
Hi Rowena,
DEEPER BODY INVESTIGATION
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time, do this investigation when you are feeling relaxed and grounded. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.
Repeat the exercise several times.
Q: sensation of tooth ache pain during this investigation ( after drinking cold water).
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
No.
Tooth pain after drinking cold water before 3rd iteration.
DE: Noticing tooth ache (*body) pain sensation felt , and see image in mirror has slightly contracted "squinted face" on same side of mirror image as tooth ache.
Answering question: Not sure this seeing constitutes connected to body felt sensation or thoughts projecting / imaginings- clearly it is not the "pain" felt , just image of light colours sensed.
CE: Thinking and interpretation onto "what is seen" - cannot see or feel pain in light.
Yes, thoughts suggesting there is.
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
No
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
No.
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
No. [that image] is only seen.
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?
No. Just colours and shapes .
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
No knowledge in seen.
Yes, thoughts suggest legs.
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
Only sensations ( no body seen ).
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Only sensations ( no walking experienced DE just thoughts as 'walking" ).
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all, Or just thoughts interpreting sensations as ‘walking’?
Only sensations ( no walking experienced here; just thoughts interpreting as 'walking" ).
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just thoughts about a ‘body’?
No body actually found ( just thoughts ).
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
No. Only sensations actually found ( & thoughts ).
(9) Are the sensations localized in an actual space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only seeing, and thinking about seeing, labelled 'room' and sensations appearing without any location?
Yes, only seeing , sensations appearing and thoughts "room".
This seeing, in particular, is right here , immediate - no distance or space. Similarly, hearing - right hear , immediate, with no distance or space. Smells, taste, touch...I may need to take more notice.
This is not to question the existence of a body, it is about discovering our fundamental direct experience of a body.
Yes.
Curiously "weird" ( as in so different to the believed) this DE of a body.
Doug
DEEPER BODY INVESTIGATION
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time, do this investigation when you are feeling relaxed and grounded. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.
Repeat the exercise several times.
Q: sensation of tooth ache pain during this investigation ( after drinking cold water).
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
No.
Tooth pain after drinking cold water before 3rd iteration.
DE: Noticing tooth ache (*body) pain sensation felt , and see image in mirror has slightly contracted "squinted face" on same side of mirror image as tooth ache.
Answering question: Not sure this seeing constitutes connected to body felt sensation or thoughts projecting / imaginings- clearly it is not the "pain" felt , just image of light colours sensed.
CE: Thinking and interpretation onto "what is seen" - cannot see or feel pain in light.
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?Rowena, any feedback on this experience?
Yes, thoughts suggesting there is.
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
No
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
No.
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
No. [that image] is only seen.
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?
No. Just colours and shapes .
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
No knowledge in seen.
Yes, thoughts suggest legs.
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
Only sensations ( no body seen ).
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Only sensations ( no walking experienced DE just thoughts as 'walking" ).
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all, Or just thoughts interpreting sensations as ‘walking’?
Only sensations ( no walking experienced here; just thoughts interpreting as 'walking" ).
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just thoughts about a ‘body’?
No body actually found ( just thoughts ).
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
No. Only sensations actually found ( & thoughts ).
(9) Are the sensations localized in an actual space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only seeing, and thinking about seeing, labelled 'room' and sensations appearing without any location?
Yes, only seeing , sensations appearing and thoughts "room".
This seeing, in particular, is right here , immediate - no distance or space. Similarly, hearing - right hear , immediate, with no distance or space. Smells, taste, touch...I may need to take more notice.
Once again:> I more frequently see this way ( but drop out when I focus vision attention onto something. I use "2D pane of vision right here" to best describe this "seeing/seen" in words.
"Hearing: is immersive sounds, immediate, and no distance" in words.
This is not to question the existence of a body, it is about discovering our fundamental direct experience of a body.
Yes.
Curiously "weird" ( as in so different to the believed) this DE of a body.
Warm regardsRowena,
May I ask you, what was memory of your experience when recognising this "no body experience" and subseqent continuing life in a CE world of bodies?
Doug
Re: River of thought
Hi again Doug,
What a wonderful and precise inquiry you have done here.
I wanted to share this: the simplest phrase to use as a check-in is to keep asking: do these thoughts or interpretations have a one-to-one correspondence to my direct experience of what my attention is focused on right now?
You were able to clearly see this at each point, even replying to your own question!!
May I ask you, what was memory of your experience when recognising this "no body experience" and subseqent continuing life in a CE world of bodies?
Happy to share. There was a feeling of relief and ‘this is funny and strange! Then that settled in and became more normal and inquiry continues. It is an ongoing exploration, the work has been to ‘embody’ the realization, especially when related to personal reactivity that can still arise: i.e. deep core fear of not being seen (heard) therefore a belief/fear of not existing !! Haha, then I look and see the joke, I can see without an ‘I’ what remains. Just this, existing. Then there is a sense of relaxation and letting go of the contracted appearance of ‘sense of self’.
I hope this is helpful. And if you would like to inquire in this way I am happy to go there with you.
I will let this last inquiry settle.
Will look forward to hearing from you tomorrow.
Warm regards,
Rowena
What a wonderful and precise inquiry you have done here.
I wanted to share this: the simplest phrase to use as a check-in is to keep asking: do these thoughts or interpretations have a one-to-one correspondence to my direct experience of what my attention is focused on right now?
You were able to clearly see this at each point, even replying to your own question!!
May I ask you, what was memory of your experience when recognising this "no body experience" and subseqent continuing life in a CE world of bodies?
Happy to share. There was a feeling of relief and ‘this is funny and strange! Then that settled in and became more normal and inquiry continues. It is an ongoing exploration, the work has been to ‘embody’ the realization, especially when related to personal reactivity that can still arise: i.e. deep core fear of not being seen (heard) therefore a belief/fear of not existing !! Haha, then I look and see the joke, I can see without an ‘I’ what remains. Just this, existing. Then there is a sense of relaxation and letting go of the contracted appearance of ‘sense of self’.
I hope this is helpful. And if you would like to inquire in this way I am happy to go there with you.
I will let this last inquiry settle.
Will look forward to hearing from you tomorrow.
Warm regards,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
-
NearClear101
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Fri May 29, 2026 4:34 am
Re: River of thought
Rowena, Thankyou for your reply and some sparkle in the content.
Doug
Doug
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