Hi Rowena,
Sorry about that mistake with different colour protocol. Outcome resulted from not checking using preview button before submitting.
Will do better.
What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future?
None * except content
Yes
If there is difference, how is that difference is known exactly?
Content: is given attention in the mind to analyse based on CE .
Yes, exactly. You have seen this, so now look below at another answer you gave
How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Long time belief based on my body/mind "development" ; through education (language constructs based in time tense/ consensus thinking/conditioning and practicing "getting recall function" calibrated "right or wrong".
What is all the above when considered in direct experience, in the way we are doing this inquiry?
Just thoughts. Thinking thinking justifying- about concept of my theory on constructing a beleief.
Does it require further thought to affirm the apparent "reality" of the memory thought
More thinking ( more thoughts) not required as logic of my mind knows of "it's reality".
Are you sure about no more thinking required?
My answer previously was another CE thought stream. An "ironic" message (answer to the mind) : "no more thoughts could convince mind otherwise about it's false reality". Crazy to want to debate with a thought about thought and memory.
I don't know.
DE sees reality as this now: no past or future here. Recognising thinking about past/memory as thoughts not sensations of experience here.
What is the logic of your mind based on?
Learned concepts.
What is 'mind' made of? (No scientific analysis here please)
DE: Cannot find 'mind'.
Can find attention in thinking.
CE: Thinking is word/pointer/symbol to 'mind processing thoughts arising".
REMEMBER: Thoughts can include mental images.
What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
Content.
'Future thought ' does not have "consensus of belief" .
Does a thought about 'past' have a 'consensus of belief'? How would this work, other than as a thought that says, "yes, everybody knows that happened."
Answer in CE *content of thought.
Thought(s) of past, when verbalised to others, feedback as affirmation.
Thoughts of future, when verbalised, feedback as guessing.
DE : both past & future just thoughts arising
Now, think of a flying pink elephant flying across the room, let that image go, and now return to the memory thought.
Without a thought to interpret, what is the actual difference between those two thoughts?
Their content and beliefs.
What is content and belief made of?
Apart from content, there is an added factor that supports the difference between a random thought like 'pink elephant' and a memory that is believed.
A belief is a thought, but a thought is not a belief. There is a difference.
In your direct experience, here and now, think of a random neutral thought that doesn't concern you.(That's a CLUE)
Some news item perhaps. Now let that thought go, and now think a memory thought.
Please look really carefully, you can alternate between the two experiences.
What is your full DE experience when you think of the neutral thought?
What is your full DE experience when you think of the memory thought?
How do the two experiences differ?
Look to the body!
Memory thought can often replay the sensations I experienced : the seen , felt, heard, smelt..as known/familiar sense. Body reacts/responds.
Random thought doesn't receive that attention or response in body as familiar.
Struggling in thoughts. Fears of no "time" - what may happen..."letting go" into this.
Thoughts : How can this be reality?
Identity thoughts: My beliefs & conceptual thinking are necessary to live.
Thoughts are not the problem, it is believing in thoughts that is the problem.
Unpack "struggling in thoughts." In DE how does it FEEL to struggle in thoughts?
DE -
feeling confused and noticing distracting into thoughts to cope with this. Change to beliefs and safety net of known.
Body sensations- itching and attention shifting (especially distracting into thinking).
Good noticing with Body sensations here: uncomfortable body sensations and then attention goes to mind to divert away from the body sensations.
The commitment and curiosity unchanging.
Trusting too.
Staying here.
Good.
Are 'you' your thoughts?
Are 'you' your beliefs?
Are 'you' your body sensations?
Nope.
Take time out and do some slow deep breathing. Focus your attention on the breath for a while?
Allow yourself to relax into DE of the visual field, no labels, simply a tapestry of colors.
Quietly look again at the above questions.
Warm regards,
Doug
River of thought
Re: River of thought
Hello again Doug,
Good going with the above.
This last inquiry is a good practice to bring to mind in order to bring clarity when 'lost' in a thought stream.
Direct experience doesn't try and 'get rid of' anything, but one of the positive 'side'-effects is that direct seeing clarifies what is actually happening to see more clearly the movement of attention and what that implies. i.e. thoughts jumping to conclusions and into thought stories.
INTRODUCTORY BODY MEDITATION
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or, if possible, mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Can a boundary be detected between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - an inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - an outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
Warm regards,
Rowena
Good going with the above.
This last inquiry is a good practice to bring to mind in order to bring clarity when 'lost' in a thought stream.
Direct experience doesn't try and 'get rid of' anything, but one of the positive 'side'-effects is that direct seeing clarifies what is actually happening to see more clearly the movement of attention and what that implies. i.e. thoughts jumping to conclusions and into thought stories.
INTRODUCTORY BODY MEDITATION
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or, if possible, mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Can a boundary be detected between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - an inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - an outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
Warm regards,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
-
NearClear101
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Fri May 29, 2026 4:34 am
Re: River of thought
Hi Rowena,
INTRODUCTORY BODY MEDITATION
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or, if possible, mental images:
Answering these questions here, paying attention to sensations with eyes closed.
Can it be known how tall the body is?
No - tallness not sensed.
Does the body have a weight or volume?
No.
In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No. Not in DE without seeing.
Can a boundary be detected between the body and the clothing?
"Detection" as in sensing? Touching sensation finds different textures and warmth.
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No. My aha moment on body boundary.
Is there an inside or an outside?
Body inside or outside? No.
"Mouth" inside or outside. Sensation of touch with tongue is different.
If there is an inside - an inside of what exactly?
Good question pointing to a what/thing/matter.
I can not find a what.
Only touch detecting difference in texture and/or warmth
If there is an outside - an outside of what exactly?
No-thing found to have attribute of outside.
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
A me.
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Looking very carefully. Seeing shapes and colours ( does not "match mental image" !).
Not me.
Some shape/form, colours and light - that is seen. That, looking "at" into a mirror is seen.
2D image of light is an experience of the body.
Warm regards,
Doug
INTRODUCTORY BODY MEDITATION
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or, if possible, mental images:
Answering these questions here, paying attention to sensations with eyes closed.
Can it be known how tall the body is?
No - tallness not sensed.
Does the body have a weight or volume?
No.
In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No. Not in DE without seeing.
Can a boundary be detected between the body and the clothing?
"Detection" as in sensing? Touching sensation finds different textures and warmth.
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No. My aha moment on body boundary.
Is there an inside or an outside?
Body inside or outside? No.
"Mouth" inside or outside. Sensation of touch with tongue is different.
If there is an inside - an inside of what exactly?
Good question pointing to a what/thing/matter.
I can not find a what.
Only touch detecting difference in texture and/or warmth
If there is an outside - an outside of what exactly?
No-thing found to have attribute of outside.
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
A me.
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Looking very carefully. Seeing shapes and colours ( does not "match mental image" !).
Not me.
Some shape/form, colours and light - that is seen. That, looking "at" into a mirror is seen.
2D image of light is an experience of the body.
Warm regards,
Doug
Re: River of thought
Hi Doug,
DEEPER BODY INVESTIGATION
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time, do this investigation when you are feeling relaxed and grounded. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.
Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all, Or just thoughts interpreting sensations as ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just thoughts about a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
(9) Are the sensations localized in an actual space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only seeing, and thinking about seeing, labelled 'room' and sensations appearing without any location?
Once again:
This is not to question the existence of a body, it is about discovering our fundamental direct experience of a body.
Doug I am traveling and on my phone today,
So the questions are not colored as my phone is not so easy for me to use!
Warm regards,
Rowena
And what does a ‘me’ refer to?
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
A me.
DEEPER BODY INVESTIGATION
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time, do this investigation when you are feeling relaxed and grounded. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.
Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all, Or just thoughts interpreting sensations as ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just thoughts about a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
(9) Are the sensations localized in an actual space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only seeing, and thinking about seeing, labelled 'room' and sensations appearing without any location?
Once again:
This is not to question the existence of a body, it is about discovering our fundamental direct experience of a body.
Doug I am traveling and on my phone today,
So the questions are not colored as my phone is not so easy for me to use!
Warm regards,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
-
NearClear101
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Fri May 29, 2026 4:34 am
Re: River of thought
Hi Rowena,
Enjoy your travels.
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
A me.
And what does a ‘me’ refer to?
A collection of thoughts, memories and mental images. With content of a living sepaate self entity that is identified by attributes like name( me/I), age, height ... history.
That "body" as "me thoughts."
I'll progress with deeper body investigation and post my responses later.
Warm regards
Doug
Enjoy your travels.
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
A me.
And what does a ‘me’ refer to?
A collection of thoughts, memories and mental images. With content of a living sepaate self entity that is identified by attributes like name( me/I), age, height ... history.
That "body" as "me thoughts."
I'll progress with deeper body investigation and post my responses later.
Warm regards
Doug
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