seeking freedom

[graceabounds]

Good. The key point is here:

Look closely at that feeling that you can organize thoughts.

You already saw that you can’t choose the first thought and that you can’t predict the next thought. Now another thought appears l, for example “I should think positively.”

Did you create that thought, or did it simply appear like every other thought?

If it just appeared, where is the controller?

Take your prayer example. Tomorrow morning, don’t focus on whether you pray. Instead, watch for the very first thought, something like “Time to pray.”

Did you produce it, or did it simply arise?

The same applies while writing your article. Thoughts like “Start here” or “Edit that paragraph” may seem organized, but can you find anything actually organizing them, or is organization itself just another pattern appearing?

Adults appear more controlled than babies because conditioning is more complex, not because a separate controller has appeared.

So now take a look. When the thought arises, “I should redirect this negative thought,” did you create that thought? Or did it simply appear?

If it simply appeared, what exactly is doing the guiding? Answer only from direct experience. :)

[danielak]

Hi Becca,

I guess it's not a feeling that comes up when I look at the thought I can organize thoughts, but just another thought. I guess an assumption/pattern.

Yesterday I was trying to see how the sequenced thoughts happens, which looks like its predictability is a choice (made by a chooser) about the next thought, but I guess it's just pattern. no? That is what you're trying to say, no?
I cannot predict or choose the next thought even if it's a thought that I' know I'll have, like the prayer or what I'm gonna cook for lunch or about a task at work I have to do. I can tell that this thoughts are gonna come tomorrow, but The organization of them happens by itself, the patterns happens by itself.

If it simply appeared, what exactly is doing the guiding?

I cannot tell. I guess no-one, it's happening by itself.
So, when you ask me these questions I can see it clearly that thoughts just arise, but most part of my day I'm in auto pilot and it really feels that I'm the controller, like this clarity that there is no thinker doesn't happen naturally. I guess it's a process, yes?
Yesterday I watched for the first time the monthly meeting with Ilona. It was quite interesting. While she was saying that the seeker is trying to stop te suffering . For a moment I had am insight that the problem with the seeker is the thought that we need to seek lol. that was interesting. Even though I could see that, I'm still trying to make sense of all these.
And, just to you know, today I'm going for a trip with some friends, so it's possible that I won't write you back by Sunday or Monday. For sure if you send a msg I'll read and gonna be reflecting on it during my trip, but to write back, I like to have a quiet time alone and I don't think I'll gonna have that.
Thank you very much Becca! I'm enjoying this very much!!

[graceabounds]

Lets pivot to the body and see if this shines some light on that autopilot controller feeling:

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

:)

[graceabounds]

Looking back I gave you a similar exercise already, so here is some more to chew on for the weekend, until there is space to write…

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'Daniela’ autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made such as what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from?? any autonomous intervention there?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look nice or presentable for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'Daniela' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

[danielak]

Hi Becca,

So, I did the hand exercise. It was interesting to notice it. I was moving my hands slow, then fast, changing the position of my hands as I was doing the movements. And I could not notice where was the controller. Again, it feels that there is an intentionality, the reason I was doing this movement was because you suggested , other wise I wouldn't be doing it. But at the same time I could not find what made me do it at the exactly moment, or the way I was moving the hand, or for how long, which hand started.... and also at some point I stoped and was doing other movement with my hands..I don't know where this decision came from.
After it, I'm trying to be more conscious about how my thoughts just appears and disappears or my body movements. It's clearer observing this when you give me an exercise to do, but I want to see if I can notice it during my day too.
I'll write later about the other exercise.
Thank you very much and I hope you had a great weekend!

[danielak]

1. Can you find anywhere where 'Daniela’ autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

This makes sense. And I get your point. the circumstances are part of my "decisions" or who I am. But as the stream example, the fact that the environment constitute the stream, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I can see more clearly that I don't have all the control I thought I had, about what I think, my movements, my choices... but I still feeling that there is a conscious intention... as to do the exercises you suggest me. At the same time it doesn't mean that my decisions are not part of overall flow. for sure they're influenced by circumstances.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

No, I can't find this individual entity being influenced by the circumstances or intervening in life...as the stream example, I can't separate it from the environment, but all this combination of factores makes a stream exist. and that is what makes me sense that there is an I, a combination of body, mind, thoughts, experiences, circumstances ... But I guess this's not direct experience, right? So, I go to your next question

Can anything be found for which 'Daniela' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

If I'm all that, there is not a piece that is responsible. I cannot find an entity.
Not sure if I understand what you mean by responsible, making decisions? Even though I cannot find a Daniela, I still have the idea that I'm making decisions , and it's about the circumstances that happens around me, for what is a good question..for feeling good, for what I think it's right...this's getting vage..not sure if I got it.

[graceabounds]

Even though I cannot find a Daniela, I still have the idea that I'm making decisions

Ok. Let’s look more precisely there.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice
Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:
1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

[danielak]

when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

No, I didn't choose the qualities. When I thought of coffee, it came to me the smell, warmth, the taste, that wakes me up... they appeared to me, but based on a memory. Same with water.

f some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

Before seeing this exercise I was already ready to have my morning coffee. So reflecting about before the exercise I didn't choose to have a coffee, it just pop up. And while doing the exercise I tried to consider the qualities of water to check what I really wanted. And the choice was made by a preference that just appeared.
I'm seeing that preferences just pop up and it can look like I'm choosing...

Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

I didn't even noticed that I had to shut down the preference to count. I had to do the exercise again to notice it. And it was true, while counting I wasn't thinking about the preference, it happened "automatically" or better saying, by itself. There was no mental function choosing.

did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Not at all! My direct experience was looking at the coffee and the water and noticing their qualities, the qualities appears in my mind based on my memory (because I know coffee I could remember the smell and taste and the sensation). I noticed that I had "made the decision" even before doing the exercise, I was ready for my coffee already. But there wasn't a chooser. There was a component of conditioning. That is what I do every morning.

can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

A feeling cannot choose, but a choice can be made based on how it feels, right? Like the coffee, it makes me feel awake, the taste feels good so the choice of having a coffee appears, or if I feel thirsty a preference for water would show up, right? It's so tempting to say that because I'm thirsty I'm choosing to drink water! That is actually happening right now, and I can see that the desire to go grab a glass of water simply appears... gosh, it makes sense, but requires getting used to this new perspective...

[graceabounds]

That is actually happening right now, and I can see that the desire to go grab a glass of water simply appears... gosh, it makes sense, but requires getting used to this new perspective...

That adjustment is natural. For years, language has compressed an enormously complex unfolding into a simple sentence like, “I chose to drink water.” Practical language isn’t the issue. The investigation is whether that sentence points to something actually found in experience, or whether it’s a useful description layered onto what has already happened.

A feeling cannot choose, but a choice can be made based on how it feels, right? Like the coffee, it makes me feel awake, the taste feels good so the choice of having a coffee appears

No. A feeling doesn’t choose any more than the colour blue chooses or the sound of a bird chooses. A feeling simply appears.

The following exercise is designed to let you ‘feel’ the difference between actual experience and imagined experience.

Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine the spoons form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Look and feel at the imaginary spoon for a while.

Then open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?

So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?

Notice that there was no boom and no bright flashes of light when the imaginary spoon was no longer imagined. Remember this, the shift to seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not going to be any more than this, it is just a dropping of a belief – the belief is the glue that holds the illusion together.

Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it. Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.

Now open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?

Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:
Is it an image or is it an actual entity?

[danielak]

Good morning Becca,

Yesterday I did this exercise and was quite impactful, and I was the rest of my day thinking of it and seeing your point, kind of an opening to this possibility of no self. but not really, yet.
I just did it again to be able to respond you from what I'm experiencing right now. So, when "I bring my attention to the image of me" , I start to think, a thinking process happens that recall my physical image, how this body has changed but kept some unique characteristics, combined with exclusive memories and experiences somehow linked to this body. This combination of factors makes me believe there is an entity that experienced all this and have a unique experience of living. At the same time, I realize that this is thinking happening, not me myself, and when I try to find the entity I can't.
So, somehow I get what you're pointing to, but what is that I'm describing then? I also cannot deny the existence of this body that has being around for 48 years, with a mind, that during this time has been having experiences, creating memories, that organize thoughts based on these moments. If there is no entity, what is then that is having these unique experiences?

[graceabounds]

Very good looking.

Now, does an experience require an experiencer?

Take a look directly.

The question is not does the body exist… it does. But does an independent owner of the body exist??

Close your eyes for a moment.

There are sensations. sounds. thoughts.
Perhaps an image of your face appears.

Without using memory…
Without referring to the story of your life…

Can you find the experiencer…

…or only experience itself?

[danielak]

When I try to find the experiencer, I can't find anything. But it's frustrating because it doesn't mean I finally had the realization. When I try to find an experiencer, it's true, I just fell the senses, the noise, the breathing, thinking passing by trying to make sense of all this. The thinking that keeps coming is what is that I call I then?, that combine all this memories and senses in this body, because it seems that this's what I call self.
I know that what I'm gonna say is not what you're proposing (direct experience),just more thinking and rationalization, but it's what keep coming in my thoughts. There is an theory in science that defines a living been as a "self-generating network within a boundary", meaning that there is matter (structure), but what defines us is also the patterns and intra and inter connections , and maybe that is what you're trying to point me, what we call I, is just patterns and a networking of connections, no entity. However, this just make me change the definition from entity to patterns....doesn't help me "experience" or having the realization of the non-self .
And the fact that I can't find a self in the exercise, doesn't necessary make me see the illusion of the self.
I hope I'm in the "right" path, and this's how I get to the realization....
Btw, I have a question. I haven't listening or reading any other non duality or spiritual teachings, but I was enjoying very much the Ilona podcast. Could I keep listening to that, or it also can disrupt the process? I'm trying to not listening to anything during my day, also the keep present and not distracted, but sometimes I get bored or frustrated and that lift me up a bit.

[graceabounds]

Let’s put aside every theory for a moment, including the one about self-organizing systems. You already see that’s another description. It’s elegant (and may be scientifically useful) but notice what happened.

You couldn’t find an entity… great!…
…and thought immediately supplied a replacement ‘Maybe I’m really just a network of patterns.’

Right now, in immediate experience, can you find someone traveling toward realization?

Or can you only find another thought saying,

“I’m getting closer.”

The thought is present.

Can you find the traveler?

We are not looking here for a better answer. :)


Why does the appearance of those thoughts imply that there must be something they belong to?

What is present before the label ‘I’ arrives?

I hope I'm in the "right" path, and this's how I get to the realization....

Hold on. Right now, in immediate experience, can you find someone traveling toward realization?

Or can you only find another thought saying something like ‘I’m getting closer.’ Maybe even ‘Bravo ME’ and then more about ‘hurry up already’ or visions of what grand gloriousness will be there for ME then.

The thoughts are present.

Who do they reference? Anyone? Take a look.


And yes Ilona’s podcast is good. :)

[danielak]

in immediate experience, can you find someone traveling toward realization?

That is a very good point. You're right, it's just a thought .

Why does the appearance of those thoughts imply that there must be something they belong to?

I guess here is where I get stuck... the fact that there is this a combination of experiences to this body/mind/whatever else... that creates these memories in time , this's what imply to me that there is something that they belong to. I don't know what is and how to define it, but seems that it's happening to someone. So, if there is no me, why does these thoughts appears just to "me", how then just "me" have been having these particular experiences?

But then, you ask me

in immediate experience, can you find someone traveling toward realization?

And when I look in immediate experience I just notice the senses and thoughts appearing, including the ones I just wrote about.....It's the experience I have when I meditate (which I haven't being doing recently) just noticing what my senses can experience and the thoughts.. and in that state, there is no traveler or meditator, or thinker... but I cannot sustain that state of "direct experience" and I guess meditation and realization of non self are different things, otherwise all meditators or monks would already be free fro this illusion.. (ok, these are just thoughts too, right?). But every time you ask me about direct experience, that is all that comes up the experience of senses and thinking happening....

[graceabounds]

that creates these memories in time , this's what imply to me that there is something that they belong to

Lets look at time next.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?


Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.
Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it. Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is a difference how is that difference known exactly?

So, if there is no me, why does these thoughts appears just to "me", how then just "me" have been having these particular experiences?

Can you find the point where a thought crosses a boundary and enters a “me”?

The question isn’t whether experience is unique.

The question is whether there is an independently existing owner of that experience.

Think of weather.

There is one storm over Boston and another over Tokyo. The storms are different. They have different histories and conditions. Do we therefore conclude there is a little “storm-self” inside each cloud that owns the rain?

but I cannot sustain that state of "direct experience"

There is already a lot to work on here, so will only investigate this briefly…

Is “direct experience” a state?
Or is it what is happening before thought calls it a state?

The expectation that it should be sustained is itself another thought!

Look now.

Can you stop hearing?

Can you stop seeing (without closing your eyes)?

Can you stop sensations from being present?

Direct experience isn’t coming and going. Attention is moving between raw experiencing and thinking about experiencing.

Thoughts arising—BUT NOT THE CONTENT OF THOUGHT— is also part of direct experience.