River of thought

[Noro]

Hi Doug,

Into my DE not thoughts - inquire into conditioned mind and "Belief that there MUST be a self in control" orchestrating the thinking, accumulating knowledge on how all this works.

Inquire into DE = LOOK. Look, can a 'self' be found in simply seeing, simply hearing, simply touching (including body sensations), simply tasting, simply smelling?? This is inquiring into DE, it is not using thought to inquire, it is using the mind to direct the LOOKING in a simply manner, like a game of hide-and-seek.

Belief of what "I am".
Belief of existence of a sepate self character "me:.
Belief founded on thoughts, conditioning and concepts.
Simply believing in thoughts.

Here is something to get:

Any personal thought or belief always has some kind of echoing tension or contraction in the body.
Dont settle for assumptions or beliefs about "me", direct experience is all about LOOKING, investigate.......
Inquire into what makes a belief so magnetic?
THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A MOVEMENT OF SENSATION IN THE BODY. YOU MUST LOOK THERE.

Do you remember when you did the exercise:
"I am sitting" versus "sitting"
"I am drinking" versus "drinking coffee"

You felt a difference in the body. One sentence, the one with the 'belief' that started with "I am......." had a movement of contraction within it. The one without the belief "I am...." felt more open and free. This is what I am talking about about.

Please do that exercise again and play around with it with some beliefs, something like"
"I believe my thoughts" versus "thoughts are simply happening."
When "I" is pronounced and believed, the body moves, like it is saying "Hey, are you talking to me?"

Knowing thru DE : aware thoughts "just" come into awareness , exist and vanish. I am not thoughts or their content or beliefs or concepts from thoughts or any others' thoughts or concepts.
I know I am aware of this.

This is good Doug, but look:
Who or what is aware of this?
Can an "I" or a "me" be found that knows?
Where is it hiding?
Can a thought hide anything?
Can a body and its sensations hide anything?
Do thoughts FEEL?
Do body sensations TALK?


EXPLORE - SENSE OF SELF:
The difference in Feeling something to be true and Seeing that it is or isn't.

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there.
At this point you can keep on believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit that even if they were, they are no longer there now.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys.

Feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. (Remember the Coloured Socks Example!)

Now I'd like you to explore this "sense of self" very thoroughly, not by thinking about it but be LOOKING FOR IT. There might be a familiar sensation that we label a sense of self, but can an actual self be found? Keep the focus of attention on this sense of self and answer each question separately and feel free to answer with a simple yes or no when appropriate:

Does this sense of self have a specific location? Yes/No
If Yes, is it permanently fixed, or does it come and go?
And if it comes and goes, where does it go to?

Does this sense of self have a shape or a size? Yes/No
Does this sense of self say or communicate anything? Yes/No
If the answer is yes, how does it do this?

Does this sense of self have any specific characteristics or attributes (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, contraction?
What is this sense of self made of? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Body Sensation? Thought?

Does this familiar "sense of self" confirm the existence of an actual self. Yes/No
In conclusion, is there any separate self to be found?

Remember, it is your direct experience, not whatever feelings and thoughts that come up about it, that we want to get clear about. Direct experience is not thinking about something, thinking about is mental overlay.


Please relax and enjoy the inquiry. Remember, there is NOTHING TO GET, only to see clearly what is already the case.

Warm wishes,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,

Inquire into DE = LOOK. Look, can a 'self' be found in simply seeing, simply hearing, simply touching (including body sensations), simply tasting, simply smelling?? This is inquiring into DE, it is not using thought to inquire, it is using the mind to direct the LOOKING in a simply manner, like a game of hide-and-seek.

DE LOOK gave clear result:
looking/hearing/touching, body sensations, Tasting or smelling did NOT find a self.


Belief of what "I am".
Belief of existence of a sepate self character "me:.
Belief founded on thoughts, conditioning and concepts.
Simply believing in thoughts.
Here is something to get:


Any personal thought or belief always has some kind of echoing tension or contraction in the body.
Dont settle for assumptions or beliefs about "me", direct experience is all about LOOKING, investigate.......
Inquire into what makes a belief so magnetic?
THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A MOVEMENT OF SENSATION IN THE BODY. YOU MUST LOOK THERE.

I do notice a fear like response ( tension / contraction in and around solar plexus , stronger heart beating) when no self sense can be found .
Noticing this same body response as earlier exercises. I likened it to being pressed under water surface - "constrained from flying free."


Do you remember when you did the exercise:
"I am sitting" versus "sitting"
"I am drinking" versus "drinking coffee"

You felt a difference in the body. One sentence, the one with the 'belief' that started with "I am......." had a movement of contraction within it. The one without the belief "I am...." felt more open and free. This is what I am talking about about.


Please do that exercise again and play around with it with some beliefs, something like"
"I believe my thoughts" versus "thoughts are simply happening."

When "I" is pronounced and believed, the body moves, like it is saying "Hey, are you talking to me?"

Knowing thru DE : aware thoughts "just" come into awareness , exist and vanish. I am not thoughts or their content or beliefs or concepts from thoughts or any others' thoughts or concepts.
I know I am aware of this.

This is good Doug, but look:
Who or what is aware of this?

"Not a self or sense of self".
"Nor a thing nor sense nor thought"
Just knowing awareness of this.


Rowena: I'm not finding anything tangible or words to answer/describe "awareness of this"
Like knowing of aliveness - being - existing : there's just knowing ( that I cannot articulate).



Can an "I" or a "me" be found that knows?
No.

Where is it hiding?
Can a thought hide anything?
No.

Can a body and its sensations hide anything?
No.

Do thoughts FEEL?
No.

Do body sensations TALK?
No.



EXPLORE - SENSE OF SELF:
The difference in Feeling something to be true and Seeing that it is or isn't.

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there.
At this point you can keep on believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit that even if they were, they are no longer there now.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys.

Feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. (Remember the Coloured Socks Example!)

Now I'd like you to explore this "sense of self" very thoroughly, not by thinking about it but be LOOKING FOR IT. There might be a familiar sensation that we label a sense of self, but can an actual self be found? Keep the focus of attention on this sense of self and answer each question separately and feel free to answer with a simple yes or no when appropriate:


Does this sense of self have a specific location? Yes/No
No.
If Yes, is it permanently fixed, or does it come and go?
And if it comes and goes, where does it go to?

Does this sense of self have a shape or a size? Yes/No
No.
Does this sense of self say or communicate anything? Yes/No
No.
If the answer is yes, how does it do this?

Does this sense of self have any specific characteristics or attributes (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, contraction?
No.
What is this sense of self made of? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Body Sensation? Thought?
Thought

Does this familiar "sense of self" confirm the existence of an actual self. Yes/No
No.
In conclusion, is there any separate self to be found?
No.

Kindly regards
Doug

[Noro]

Hi Doug,

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A MOVEMENT OF SENSATION IN THE BODY. YOU MUST LOOK THERE.

I do notice a fear like response ( tension / contraction in and around solar plexus , stronger heart beating) when no self sense can be found .
Noticing this same body response as earlier exercises. I likened it to being pressed under water surface - "constrained from flying free."

Yes, that's it. It is a strong response coming from the system, it is saying "What do you mean there's no one in charge!" It is sending out alarm signals! THIS IS NORMAL. You are poking holes in years of conditioning and it will take time for the protective response of the nervous system to relax and feel safe. Try to stay with the sensations in the body, gently, allow them to be there. Simply sensations appearing. Be gentle with yourself and curious at the same time. What strange animals we humans are!!! (Myself included!)

The thing is, that just because no separate independent 'self' or controller can be found, it doesn't mean that patterns of conditioning end. You will not find a 'controller' but you will find what was mistaken for being a controller (thoughts and body sensations).

Rowena: I'm not finding anything tangible or words to answer/describe "awareness of this"
Like knowing of aliveness - being - existing : there's just knowing ( that I cannot articulate).

YES! Doug, this is it! And it cannot be articulated, no given name or label will bring up anything tangible.

How did it feel to recognize this "not finding anything tangible"?


SENSE OF SELF - PERSONAL DOERSHIP

If you were to accept that there is no independent separate self, what would you have to give up?

What do you perceive to be you in your every day life when ALL THOUGHTS ABOUT YOU are dropped?

If I were to ask you to stand up and take a step towards your self, where would you go?

Warm regards,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,

How did it feel to recognize this "not finding anything tangible"?

Peaceful.
Though weirdly frustrating feeling answering the question last posting : unable to find words for recognising just this.


SENSE OF SELF - PERSONAL DOERSHIP

If you were to accept that there is no independent separate self, what would you have to give up?

Thoughts, concepts, time and energy
1. maintaining the past story of independent separate self (named "Doug")
2. the controlling for a future of expectations, all the wants and don't wants.
3. How my loving relationships (especially family and close friends) may continue relating - what may be happening! Possibly this relationship letting go is encompassed in 2. "Wanting and now wanting".

What do you perceive to be you in your every day life when ALL THOUGHTS ABOUT YOU are dropped?
Rowena, I really don't know. I cannot find words.
Question seems to be asking perception of a me: in the future every day life - without thoughts of an ISS me.
From recent posts and inquiries with releasing of long term beliefs about an ISS self - now answering in words/concepts "changing - flowing free"

If I were to ask you to stand up and take a step towards your self, where would you go?

Nowhere. Just here.

Warm regards
Doug

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

What do you perceive to be you in your every day life when ALL THOUGHTS ABOUT YOU are dropped?

Rowena, I really don't know. I cannot find words.
Question seems to be asking perception of a me: in the future every day life - without thoughts of an ISS me.
From recent posts and inquiries with releasing of long term beliefs about an ISS self - now answering in words/concepts "changing - flowing free"

You cannot find words..... how can you find words for what is unknowable? The mind wants to 'know' about everything. It wants to label even that which is intangible. If there's a name or a description then it can be put in a box and filed away as "known'.

Can you be with this unknowing when it arises?

If I were to ask you to stand up and take a step towards your self, where would you go?

Nowhere. Just here.

Beautiful!

Here are two meditations, looking at sensations:

SITTING ON A CHAIR

Sit down on a chair, get yourself comfortable and take a few deep breaths to relax and if you like, close your eyes:

Please LOOK for any place where your behind ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just be with the sensations.

Sink into that noticing. Notice how it FEELS.

Let me know how this went


HAND ON DESK

Please close your eyes for this exercise, take a few breaths to relax.

Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface). Keeping eyes closed, 'go to' the feeling/sensation corresponding to what we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there just one thing – sensation?

2) Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?

3) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

4) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

What do you find?

Can an INHERENT FEELER be found anywhere?
Would anything that is suggested as the feeler, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Warm regards,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hello again Rowena,
SITTING ON A CHAIR

Sit down on a chair, get yourself comfortable and take a few deep breaths to relax and if you like, close your eyes:

Please LOOK for any place where your behind ends & the chair begins.


Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?
No differentiation - just sensation.

It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just be with the sensations.

Sink into that noticing. Notice how it FEELS.


Let me know how this went

Interesting experience to FIND no "me".

Chuckling reaction to the DE - given all the qualifiers ( labels) I've attributed to a chair and/or body previously using CE.





HAND ON DESK

Please close your eyes for this exercise, take a few breaths to relax.

Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface). Keeping eyes closed, 'go to' the feeling/sensation corresponding to what we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there just one thing – sensation?
No.
Just touching sensation.


2) Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?
No.
No 'feeler' .


3) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?
No.
Just sensation.


4) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

NO I/body/ hand found ; Just sensation.


What do you find?

Just touching.


Can an INHERENT FEELER be found anywhere?
No.

Would anything that is suggested as the feeler, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
No :
only when in thinking ( CE) does feeler appear.

Warm regards,
Doug

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

Interesting experience to FIND no "me".
Chuckling reaction to the DE - given all the qualifiers ( labels) I've attributed to a chair and/or body previously using CE.

I love the chuckling reaction!



PALM FLIPPING MEDITATION

As always take a few deep breaths in order to feel calm and relaxed.

1. Hold a hand out in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk!

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and EACH TIME inquire:

-How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control it?

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening?

Warm regards,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hello Rowena,

PALM FLIPPING MEDITATION

As always take a few deep breaths in order to feel calm and relaxed.

1. Hold a hand out in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk!

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and EACH TIME inquire:

Seeing rotation movement of palm
Feeling sensation in muscle
Noticing movement happening ( seeing, feeling)


-How is the movement controlled?

I don't know. Not seeing or sensing control.
Just seeing movement.



- Does a thought control it?

No.


- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.


- How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I don't know. ( without going into CE beliefs)


Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.


- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

I don't know.


Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No


Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening?

I don't know.
CE memory of some fear "seems" to result from a thought story.


Warm regards,
Doug

[Noro]

Hello again, or maybe it will be tomorrow for you!

I don't know.
CE memory of some fear "seems" to result from a thought story.

Yes, some sensations labelled 'fear' are natural when no apparent doer or self can be found when it was always assumed that there was one! Just notice them there, they are allowed to be there! Its a bit like riding a bicycle with the training wheels off for the first time!


DRINKS MEDITATION - CHOICE/AGENCY
The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty an "I", doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

Warm regards,
Rowena