River of thought

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,

No 'apple' here in DE.

Just seeing ( colours, shapes, textures), smelling, tactile sensation ( thoughts of "my fingers touching" ) of 'colder energy'.

Rowena, this seeing experience is familiar.
At different times previously , looking/seeing becomes 'flat or 2D' surface ; forms and colors all collapsed into " a pane" and no distance from the seeing!

[Noro]

Hi Doug,

Rowena, this seeing experience is familiar.
At different times previously , looking/seeing becomes 'flat or 2D' surface ; forms and colors all collapsed into " a pane" and no distance from the seeing!

That is not unusual when looking at the visual field. Do you find this disturbing in any way?
Also, are you familiar with the buddhist system of inquiry of the 10 fetters which offers an approach of looking at the ways we have created mental overlay on experience and identified with it. So your experience here is pointing to a natural experiencing of the visual field prior to the labeling of objects, space and distance.

Lets explore the visual field a bit more:

VISUAL FIELD 1

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and:

Look to your right.
Then look to your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, CLOSE YOUR EYES and look forward.

Okay, so when you look to the right, the view (visual experience) on the right is seen (whatever that is).

When you look to the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).

And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the visual experience in front is seen.

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ to see or not to see? Y/N

I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘blank space’ when you close your eyes.
The question is:

Can you turn seeing off? Y/N
Can you NOT see what is seen? Y/N

Same thing when you are facing to your left, can there be a choice to NOT see the view on the left? Y/N
Same thing when you are facing forward with closed eyes, can you NOT see the what is seen? Y/N

Is there an independent self or 'doer' that can choose to turn seeing off or on? Y/N

Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena



Do you find this disturbing in any way?
No, not experiencing any disturbance , just a curiosity of this.

Also, are you familiar with the buddhist system of inquiry of the 10 fetters which offers an approach of looking at the ways we have created mental overlay on experience and identified with it. So your experience here is pointing to a natural experiencing of the visual field prior to the labeling of objects, space and distance.

Very little knowing of fetters - just basic words and ideas about 10 fetters : as "thinking" beliefs , conceptual beliefs that veil/cloud this ( real experience ).
Yes, to being aware of my identification as a separate self. Also experience that comes and goes, mainly stuck in identifying!


So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ to see or not to see? Y/N

No : looking is seen - it's not something to see.

I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘blank space’ when you close your eyes.
The question is:


Can you turn seeing off? Y/N. N
Can you NOT see what is seen? Y/N. N

Same thing when you are facing to your left, can there be a choice to NOT see the view on the left? Y/N N
Same thing when you are facing forward with closed eyes, can you NOT see the what is seen? Y/N. N

Is there an independent self or 'doer' that can choose to turn seeing off or on? Y/N. N

Doug

[Noro]

Hi Doug,

Very little knowing of fetters - just basic words and ideas about 10 fetters : as "thinking" beliefs , conceptual beliefs that veil/cloud this ( real experience ).
Yes, to being aware of my identification as a separate self. Also experience that comes and goes, mainly stuck in identifying

!

Good. Here's a really great resource:
https://www.simplytheseen.com/explore-each-fetter.html


HEARING INVESTIGATION

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Or, you can play some music. Allow yourself to relax and open to the whole 'sound field'. Allow yourself to become absorbed into the sound field.

In your direct experience:

Where does it feel that the sound is?

Where does it feel that "I" am?

Can any boundary that can be found anywhere between what seems to be hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'sounds arising'?

Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

Can location or distance be known from simply hearing?

An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can any of these be found doing hearing?

Can a hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

Now ask: What is the difference in your experience between listening and hearing?
What happens to the quality of hearing when you ask this question?
Does attention shift from hearing to the thought space?

Notice any sensations that arise in the body with this question.

Be fully with the sensations in the body, let go of any thoughts
Allow yourself once again to become absorbed in the sounds.

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?
Could anything that is suggested as a hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

What do you find?

Rowena

[NearClear101]

Rowena,
I spent some time yesterday reading fetters 1-3 info from link you sent.
I found this hearing investigation challenging as it opened deeper held beliefs into this identity struggle , as a separate self .
Thankyou.



HEARING INVESTIGATION
Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Or, you can play some music. Allow yourself to relax and open to the whole 'sound field'. Allow yourself to become absorbed into the sound field.

In your direct experience:


Where does it feel that the sound is?
Just here

Where does it feel that "I" am?
All around this here - feels more expansive/encompassing than hearing.

Can any boundary that can be found anywhere between what seems to be hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?

Just "what is heard".
In my DE , I [me self] often notice this experience with sense of hearing. I [me self] use this "just the heard" and breathing to drop into meditation.


In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'sounds arising'?
No [when in DE] , when in mnd experience - I look to identify what is makng a specific sound I give attention.


Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?
YES Now -
I notice going into CE to answer this Q. the belief of a self as the hearer/witnesser. Perhaps an "empirical self that I want to improve" [ seems to from my fetter readings].

Can location or distance be known from simply hearing?
No.
Thought with mind calculations to "locate" is not simply hearing.

An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can any of these be found doing hearing?
No - I cannot find any in DE.

Can a hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?
DE - No.

Now ask: What is the difference in your experience between listening and hearing?
listening requires a focus on something that maybe creating sound.

Hearing is just here , a hearing experience now - no mind. .

What happens to the quality of hearing when you ask this question? To answer question on quality requiring me to judge in thinking about sound attributes.

Does attention shift from hearing to the thought space? YES.

Notice any sensations that arise in the body with this question.

Be fully with the sensations in the body, let go of any thoughts
Allow yourself once again to become absorbed in the sounds.

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?
Trying to answer this question honestly and getting pulled/pushed from DE.
I find myself in mind - battling thought content about me, a sepate self, that is the hearer. Fear of letting go, I'm hanging onto a belief to protect.

Could anything that is suggested as a hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
No. My belief is all of those.


What do you find?
DE : just the heard.

Doug : mind confusion & doubt , in body : heart warmth (desire to be freer feeling) along with heart beating stronger, breath shallower , with sensation of pressure downward on top of chest wanting to be released (like having chest pushed down under surface of deep water ).

Doug

[Noro]

Hi Doug,

In my DE , I [me self] often notice this experience with sense of hearing. I [me self] use this "just the heard" and breathing to drop into meditation.

Lovely!

Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

YES Now -
I notice going into CE to answer this Q. the belief of a self as the hearer/witnesser. Perhaps an "empirical self that I want to improve" [ seems to from my fetter readings].

It is great that you share both your DE experience and then relate your CE experience afterwards. At this time,
I would prefer not to start an inquiry into the 'belief of a self' right away, we will be leading up to that shortly.

I would just like to say, please don't take the Fetter material as a way to improve anything! I shared the Fetter link because you mentioned the 2D you had when exploring the visual field. That can be experienced through inquiry in Fetter 6.

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?

Trying to answer this question honestly and getting pulled/pushed from DE.
I find myself in mind - battling thought content about me, a sepate self, that is the hearer. Fear of letting go, I'm hanging onto a belief to protect.

Good. I am glad you are seeing how easy it is to get pulled/pushed from DE. When this is the case it is best to give it a break. When attention gets pulled into mind, the system is no longer in relaxed attention mode, but back in conventional operational mode. This thought content about 'me' is a habitual survival strategy and of course it is going to hang on in any way it can. It has served you well, but now you are working together with 'it' to get more clarity on what 'it' actually is.

Could anything that is suggested as a hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

No. My belief is all of those.

Yes, and it will be anchored in to the body through movements of sensation when there is a need to 'defend' that belief.

Doug : mind confusion & doubt , in body : heart warmth (desire to be freer feeling) along with heart beating stronger, breath shallower , with sensation of pressure downward on top of chest wanting to be released (like having chest pushed down under surface of deep water ).

I am not too sure about what the above referred to exactly with the exercise on hearing, but I am sensing that there is some pressure build up regarding some imagining of annihilation or something terrible that might happen if there was no 'separate self' in control. This mirrors what you wrote at the beginning of our conversation:

3. What do you want not to happen?

This being /existence annihilated.

When this happens, please do not put up any resistance to the fact that it is happening. Allow the time and space for the feelings to be fully felt and allowed, and the nervous system to calm down and feel safe again.
You can also give yourself some self-talk, as if talking to a small child within:
"It's OK, you are safe here, no one is trying to get rid of you or anything else."

NOTE: Please do any meditation inquiries only when you are feeling calm and relaxed. Take a few deep breaths to start.
DE is a way of looking directly at what is actually being experience Here and Now. What is immediate.
CE (conceptual) is a way of thinking ABOUT and describing what is thought to be found in DE. CE, is actually not really experiential at all. When we are lost in our minds we are lost to what we are experiencing through the senses.
The clarity will come from the ability to hold the paradox of two different perspectives at the same time.


LABEL- REALITY CORRELATION: GREEN-RED

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with reality, (i.e. direct experience). But they don't necessarily. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label GREEN, what is the actual experience?
Is the color red experienced, or is the color green experienced as the label suggests?

Does the label GREEN have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that tries to overlay the actual experience of red?

If the label GREEN is replaced with the label GOOD or BAD, is the 'redness' affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’? Yes/No
Do the labels have an actual effect on ‘reality’? Yes/No

Let me know what is actually SEEN?


Are you clear that there is nothing green there to experience?
All we are doing is noticing that the words are not the things themselves - never have been and never will be. Are you clear about that?

Warm wishes,

Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,

In my previous post re INHERENT HEARER questio, my response was my experience ( as this self labelled Doug. That response included noticing the sensations that arusein the body with the question.

[

Doug: (Doug's body perspective) mind confusion & doubt , in body : heart warmth (desire to be freer feeling) along with heart beating stronger, breath shallower , with sensation of pressure downward on top of chest wanting to be released (like having chest pushed down under surface of deep water ).

Latest response starts here.


When you look at the word label GREEN, what is the actual experience?
The symbols of a word, conventionally labelled "colour is red", is different colour from other word symbols nearby.

Is the color red experienced, or is the color green experienced as the label suggests?
Colour "red" , as conventionally known in my experience.

Does the label GREEN have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
No.
Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?
No

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that tries to overlay the actual experience of red?
Green is just a label.

If the label GREEN is replaced with the label GOOD or BAD, is the 'redness' affected in any way as the labels suggests?
NO.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’? Yes/No
NO.
Do the labels have an actual effect on ‘reality’? Yes/No
NO

Let me know what is actually SEEN?
Seeing shapes as symbols in 3D background, some colours.


Are you clear that there is nothing green there to experience?
Yes.

All we are doing is noticing that the words are not the things themselves - never have been and never will be. Are you clear about that?
Yes.

Warm wishes
Doug

[Noro]

Hi Doug,


CUP EXERCISE - TWO TYPES OF THOUGHTS
Here is an exercise which points out the difference between direct experience and content of thought

There are two types of thoughts: a thought label "Here is a cup", and a mental (visual) image of a 'cup'.

So I invite you to do this exercise:

Think of a cup, get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. 
Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp or touch that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a "real' cup or just an image of a cup?
Is the imagined content of the mental image (the cup) 'real'?

Thoughts and mental images about a cup do not make the cup 'real', even when there is a 'real' physical cup in the kitchen relatively speaking. The direct experience of thinking cannot be denied. However the contents of thought, what the thoughts are about, are not 'real', they are interpretations overlaid onto the direct experience.
Can you see this?


LOOKING AT AN OBJECT
Wherever you are sitting right now, look for an object to focus on.
Don't pick the object up or turn it around, just look at what can be seen without touching it or turning it.

Now look at it and state what you actually see in direct experience.
Give yourself a bit of time with it, Just look, nothing else.
Now consider the back side of that object.
Can it be known what the back side looks like?
If so, what tells what it looks like?
Can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?
Can this be known in direct experience?
Can an object be known at all?

Let me know how you got on.

Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,


CUP EXERCISE - TWO TYPES OF THOUGHTS
Here is an exercise which points out the difference between direct experience and content of thought

There are two types of thoughts: a thought label "Here is a cup", and a mental (visual) image of a 'cup'.

So I invite you to do this exercise:

Think of a cup, get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. 
Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp or touch that image of a cup? NO
Can you pour tea into it? NO
Can you drink from it? NO

Is there a "real' cup or just an image of a cup?
NO real cup , just imagery in mind/memory/thinking & labels.

Is the imagined content of the mental image (the cup) 'real'? NO

Thoughts and mental images about a cup do not make the cup 'real', even when there is a 'real' physical cup in the kitchen relatively speaking. The direct experience of thinking cannot be denied. However the contents of thought, what the thoughts are about, are not 'real', they are interpretations overlaid onto the direct experience.
Can you see this? YES


LOOKING AT AN OBJECT
Wherever you are sitting right now, look for an object to focus on.
Don't pick the object up or turn it around, just look at what can be seen without touching it or turning it.

Now look at it and state what you actually see in direct experience.
Just the seen - 2D pane of colour, shape and form .
Give yourself a bit of time with it, Just look, nothing else.
Now consider the back side of that object.
Can it be known what the back side looks like?
No
If so, what tells what it looks like?
Can it be known that there is a back at all? No That the object is 3D? No
Can this be known in direct experience? No
Can an object be known at all? No

Let me know how you got on.

Thankyou. Seeing quite differently now.
Doug

[Noro]

Hi Doug,

Thankyou. Seeing quite differently now.

Thanks for the feedback!


OBSERVING THOUGHTS
The Direct experience of thought is very important in the seeing through the self illusion. As always take your time to get comfortable and relaxed before beginning this meditation. Take it slowly and trying not to think about the answer, just let it come with what you experience directly. If you like, it can be helpful to get a piece of paper and write as it comes; from the flow of questioning and looking, clarity comes. Each question can be a meditation in itself.

Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice any thoughts arising.
Just let them appear as and when they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

Can a thought think another thought?

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?

Please answer ALL the questions. If you prefer not to use the quote function, please make your answer a different color so that it is easier to differentiate from the question.
Look as many times as it is possible during the day even for a few seconds.

Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,
this thought inquiry is important and may take some time. So, this may take a while before responding to you - may also be prompt.
I'll also update you.
Warm wishes.
Doug.

[Noro]

Hi Doug,

For sure, take your time. But don’t think too much. Observe in quiet moments, in your direct experience.

Warm wishes,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,
Where are thoughts coming from and going to?
DE: Do not know a "from" or "going to" - just thinking. So many thoughts, one after another, streaming through.
Thoughts "just" come into awareness , exist and vanish.

I notice (aware of) the thinking and habitual action of grabbing into that content/problems/time/to do.. 'caught in a net' about me .

"Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and me
just notice " I found this part of thought exercise instruction so difficult.


Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No.
Though, after taking the bait of a thought content about me : subsequent thoughts seem to have similar stream theme.
I struggle to just notice the thought without looking into its contents.


Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No. Perhaps without looking into content.

Can you predict your next thought?
No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?
No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Not really - although seems I'm picking thoughts content about me are most common.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No.
Pushing against thought stream no prevention.

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

No agency.


Can a thought think another thought?
No. Seem to appear singularly ( one after another ).

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?
I'm not understanding this question.
I find most thoughts content about a "me".

In the gap/space between thoughts appearing , there is a noticing of this no thoughts gap

Doug

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

You have shared some valuable findings from this exercise. The first being how much identification that there is with thought, especially when it pertains to a "me". The faculty of mind and thinking is a key survival mechanism, amongst its other uses, and it goes deep into the subtle processing of the bodymind system as a whole. It is useful, and we are not going to even attempt to get rid of it!

"Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and me
just notice " I found this part of thought exercise instruction so difficult.

I am sorry that that instruction was triggering for you. The direction to 'try not to pay attention' would perhaps have been better. If you are highly reactive to thought, then your 'nervous system' would naturally be stressed out by that instruction.

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?

I'm not understanding this question.
I find most thoughts content about a "me".

In your direct experience can you find an actual "me" that is independent and separate from the rest of the thought?
Can you find a separate, independent thinker?
What does the thought 'me' point to? i.e. Where else could you look?

Any personal thought or belief always has some kind of echoing tension or contraction in the body.
Dont settle for assumptions about "me", direct experience is all about LOOKING, investigate.......

In the gap/space between thoughts appearing , there is a noticing of this no thoughts gap

Great that you've already noticed this!



FRIEND/STRANGER

Bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."

Then bring up a thought about a character labeled "stranger."

Compare these thoughts.

Is there an actual difference in these thoughts?

Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Now, bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."

After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me.”

Is there a difference as far as thought goes?

Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character?"
Let me know what is experienced.

Bring up a thought "me" again.

Compare it with a thought "Mickey Mouse"

What makes on seem more personal than the other

Let me know what is found?


Warmly,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

In your direct experience can you find an actual "me" that is independent and separate from the rest of the thought?

No.

Can you find a separate, independent thinker?

No.

What does the thought 'me' point to? i.e. Where else could you look?


Into my DE not thoughts - inquire into conditioned mind and "Belief that there MUST be a self in control" orchestrating the thinking, accumulating knowledge on how all this works.


Any personal thought or belief always has some kind of echoing tension or contraction in the body.
Dont settle for assumptions about "me", direct experience is all about LOOKING, investigate.......


In the gap/space between thoughts appearing , there is a noticing of this no thoughts gap
Great that you've already noticed this!



FRIEND/STRANGER

Bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."

Then bring up a thought about a character labeled "stranger."

Compare these thoughts.


Is there an actual difference in these thoughts?

No.

Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Just different content.

Now, bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."

After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me.”


Is there a difference as far as thought goes?

No. :- No difference. )

Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character?"
Let me know what is experienced.

Me-character" thought content get's special attention ("attractiveness" "magnetic" to think about, grab onto).

Bring up a thought "me" again.

Compare it with a thought "Mickey Mouse"


What makes on seem more personal than the other

Belief of what "I am".
Belief of existence of a sepate self character "me:.
Belief founded on thoughts, conditioning and concepts.

Simply believing in thoughts.


Let me know what is found?


Knowing thru DE : aware thoughts "just" come into awareness , exist and vanish. I am not thoughts or their content or beliefs or concepts from thoughts or any others' thoughts or concepts.
I know I am aware of this.

Thankyou Rowena.
Doug