River of thought

[NearClear101]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The understanding/belief I currently have of my self , is not the truth in this reality. Rather my story of self is based on conditioning beliefs, thoughts and memories of a me. This me/self I continue to embellished and hold onto in my mind; while sensing and experiencing otherwise.

What are you looking for at LU?
Perhaps I'm at a barrier/gate now in this life.
I am looking for light in my tunnel filled with confusion and doubt. A lightness to life that frees the brain fog and opens
Looking for help in letting go of builtup ears, and an allowing rather than holding on existence. I know that calmness exists.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Perhaps a guide that has compassion and understands where I struggle most in letting go of beliefs. Practices that are helpful and relevant.
Advice, guidance thru insights and pointers to this what really is : a path rom fog towards clarity/truth.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Self practiced meditation to calm my mind ( 30+ years)
Practice in Seeking to understand "conceptually" more and more what Liberation appears to be.
Reading, videos, practising on my own , self inquiry ....(at least 3 years)

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

[Noro]

Hello Nearclear 101,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. Im sorry you've had to wait a while.
My name is Rowena and I am happy to be your guide. Please let me know what I should call you?

1. Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

2. Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

and "Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)

6. Please answer all questions individually, not in a bundle, as this will assist us both in having a clear dialogue. Also it is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

7. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers. Here's a video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Throughout this exploration the questions that I would like you to answer are written in blue text. But please check and answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text!!

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. And I will do so as well.
What time zone are in? I am in Belgium which is CET
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.


ARE YOU HERE TO FIX SOMETHING?
WHAT ARE YOU SEEKING?

STARTING THE ENQUIRY: EXPECTATIONS

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open. Only fear and expectations can prevent clear seeing of no self.

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What seems to be missing in your life right now?

I look forward to starting this inquiry with you.

Warmly

Rowena

[NearClear101]

I live in Australia. AEST ( GMT +10hr) So, 8 hours ahead of Belgium clock time.
Happy for you to call me Doug

[NearClear101]

ARE YOU HERE TO FIX SOMETHING?
Not sure.
Free from mind identification



WHAT ARE YOU SEEKING?
Freedom from
1. constant thought fog , internal judgements and self criticism "mind identification"
2. Fear of making mistakes
3. People pleaser syndrome

[NearClear101]

2. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?
At the moment, can't use my "thinking" to imagine an answer.
So, loss of thoughts of that ME project I've worked at for 70years.
Loss of that self - everything. Loss of that me - and all the good, bad and ordinary memories.

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

I'm happy we've now connected here on the forum.

WHAT ARE YOU SEEKING?

Freedom from
1. constant thought fog , internal judgements and self criticism "mind identification"
2. Fear of making mistakes
3. People pleaser syndrome

As you mentioned 'mind identifiication', it is helpful that you already have a knowledge of this. We will be looking at this closely throughout our inquiry together.

2. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

At the moment, can't use my "thinking" to imagine an answer.
So, loss of thoughts of that ME project I've worked at for 70years.
Loss of that self - everything. Loss of that me - and all the good, bad and ordinary memories.

It is great that you can't use your "thinking" to imagine an answer. Very honest, and open.

Doug, next time, if possible, please could you send your answers all together on the same post as it will help to make our 'thread' clearer. If you want to take time with the questions I suggest making a copy/paste of them onto a page outside the forum and do the exercise at your own pace from there so that you won't run the risk of losing the answers if the LU site has problems (as this can happen from time to time.

I will wait for the rest of your answers before we start the inquiry.

Warmly,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,
I had assumed ( mind/thoughts and newbie here not wanting to make mistakes¿)
I needed to answer one part at a time.
6. Please answer all questions individually, not in a bundle, as this will assist us both in having a clear dialogue.


After sleeping on these questions , I'm here again with more spontaneity rather than thoughts.
Doug


Firstly, I find these initial questions challenging to answer without going into thinking and even coming up with words to capture what it may be like without a self.

Seems, for me, I don't know .

I dont know where to go to obtain an answer - I don't seem to have a reference experience to compare no-self and self identified me.
Perhaps only as pre verbal child or deep sleep each night : both I can't/ don't have words to write about : describe what that is like .

Lots & lots I simply don't know; without referring to thoughts, memories and self beliefs of this me [ a human living as Doug]

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self
Knowing what is really here.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this
Expect completely different reality to "appear".
- I dont know ( only imagination of something like being in deep sleep or pre birth or pre identification as mind body).

3. What do you want not to happen?
This being /existence annihilated.

4. What are you hoping for?
This being /existence continuing - being content, being happy and at peace.

5. What seems to be missing in your life right now?
Peace , connection , freedom from mind control - freedom from thoughts, fears, wants, judgement and shame . [ lots there in my thinking again ]

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,
Just updating my answer to Q5 as question asked about "missing right now:.

5. What seems to be missing in your life right now?

Right now ( immediately) :
missing is clarity of mind,
missing is calmness and relaxation of body.


ATM, I feel confusion of thoughts , my body has buzzing tension

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

Firstly, I find these initial questions challenging to answer without going into thinking and even coming up with words to capture what it may be like without a self.

This format of written questioning can be challenging because there is a a constant shifting between mind-thinking and sharing of direct experience. No worries though, as this whole inquiry points to the paradox between what we take to be reality conventionally speaking (consensus reality) and actually, in our direct experience which is what this inquiry is going to be based upon.

3. What do you want not to happen?

This being /existence annihilated.

This is a common fear, imagination gone wild! Have you listened to a lot of radical non-duality speakers talking about 'awakening'? Please forget everything you have heard from anyone about 'awakening' or 'enlightenment'. All of that is mental concepts. Every thought about or expectation is a move away from what is being experienced here, right now: what could be referred to as hard reality, with no embellishments or detractions, into the fantasy land of the mind.

5. What seems to be missing in your life right now?

Right now ( immediately) :
missing is clarity of mind,
missing is calmness and relaxation of body.

I love the directness of seizing the moment for this reply.

Please become curious about the following questions. They are not targeted to what you think about the situation, but are pointing towards your direct experience. Direct experience refers to the raw experience of the five senses and the sixth sense of thinking (consciousness). Raw refers to minimal reference of activity or experience, so content of thought is not included.

What is this experience of "missing is clarity of mind, missing is calmness and relaxation of body" ?
What is the totality of this experience right here, right now?
There are thoughts saying "missing is clarity of mind and calmness and relaxation of the body." But thoughts interpret, they reflect assumptions, habit patterns, core beliefs etc. thoughts are an overlay onto direct experience, and when the experience is a personal one, relating to 'you' then the next place to look at is what is going on in the body.

How does it FEEL in the body to be missing clarity of mind, missing calmness and relaxation?
Please begin here.
Go into the body, feel the raw sensations of the body?
Where are the strongest sensations occurring? Where are they located?
Can you simply be with these sensations without thought overlay?
Become curious, ask yourself "what is this?"
Do sensations talk?
Do sensations complain about lack of calmness?
No, sensations are simply sensations.
Thought jumps in and interprets, it sheds an overlay onto the direct fullness of experience.

ATM, I feel confusion of thoughts , my body has buzzing tension

You are already right on track here!


YOU DO NOT ENCOUNTER REALITY
You encounter your perception of the world and other people's perceptions.

COLOURED SOCKS - HOW TO LOOK FOR THE NO SELF IN THE EXERCISES
I will be referring to this example throughout our inquiry as a reminder.

There is a BIG difference between knowing/believing that there is no self, and seeing that there is no self.

If you can’t see for yourself directly, you cannot describe what you see in your own words.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks (or underwear) you are wearing right now, you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are. Or,
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the actual experience that is right here and right now.


DIRECT OR ACTUAL EXPERIENCE IS
Seeing (colors)
Hearing (sounds)
Feeling or Sensing (sensations)
Tasting
Smelling
and
Thinking (thoughts, but not their content)

DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF DAILY ACTIVITIES

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities as simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of the experiencing of a cup of coffee

Seeing a cup; simply= color
Smelling coffee; simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup; simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee; simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee; simply = sound
Thinking about drinking the coffee; simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

The point is to understand the difference between what is actually being experienced (Direct Experience) and not what is interpretation (Indirect experience).

Please post several of your own observations in lists exactly like the one above.

Warm wishes,

Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,
Interesting process of noticing simply experiences in this day; staying in the senses. I'm more curious now!
Here's the response on this exercise.



Waking this morning
First opening eyes and seeing first images in light: simply=colours and shapes
Hearing the sounds of morning bird calls and soft background sounds: simply=sound
feeling the warmth of body , and contact of bed sheets: simply=sensation,
Assesment/comparason of this experience to other mornings :simply=thoughts.

lots of thoughts how this is so good, thinking maybe something changing (desire) : simply thoughts and their content.

Brushing teeth in front of mirror
Looking into mirror : simply=image, *** image quite different in perspective (thoughts of change).

Hearing water running while motorised tooth brush buzzing :simply=sound
Smelling the fragrance of tooth paste gel: simply=smell,
Tasting the tooth paste flavour: simply=taste,
Feeling the water as it is swished inside mouth: simply=sensation,
Lots of thinking about what I am and what I am really seeing : simply=thought and following its content.

Washing up dishes
Looking at stacked dishes - seeing the colours, shapes: simply=colour
Hearing the sounds of suds, and clatter of plates in the water : simply=sound
Smelling combination of fragrances - detergent and food on plates: simply=smell
simply=taste,
Feeling the warmth and wetness of washing water on skin: simply=sensation

Noticing drifting into thoughts of planning, what to do today : simply=thought content.

Walking on sand
Seeing the textures , colours, movement, simply=colour/image,
hearing shoe to sand contact, squeak: simply=sound,
hearing background and surrounding sounds :simply=sound

feeling the wind on skin : simply=sensation,
feeling the sand to foot compressions simply=sensation,

noticing thoughts and drifting in/out of that walking experience: simply=thought.

Washing dog
Seeing the dog, colours, contrast of textures : simply=colour, shapes
hearing the suds and water squelch, hearing the background sounds: simply=sound
noticing the fragrance of shampoo while lathering : simply=smell
Feeling the warmth of water and texture of fur: simply=sensation,
Aware of thinking of dog's experience of this , judging good or bad?:


Doug

[Noro]

Hi Doug,

Keep the curiosity going!


THOUGHTS LABEL EXPERIENCE
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which thoughts add labels to experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper. As with all the exercises going forward make sure you are comfortable and take a few deep breathes in order to be relaxed. This is not an intellectual exercise, but a kind of whole-body intuitive exercise attentive to the difference in the two perspectives. And you can't get it wrong!

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots.
For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

1. For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry
I am thinking (just notice the activity of thinking, do not get drawn into the content of thought)
I am writing.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

2. Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time drop the “I am” label

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
hearing clock ticking
looking at computer screen
feeling hungry
thinking
writing

3. Finally, try the two together, first say with the "I am" label and next, after a moment, without: I am walking / walking.

Pay close attention to body sensations, watch what is happening in the body. Really take time to sense the difference. It may be subtle.
What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….." ?
What is the body sensation without "I am…."?

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Does one feel intuitively 'truer' than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body between the two ways?


Rowena

[NearClear101]

1. For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a podcast,
I am looking at a screen,
I am feeling weary
I am thinking (just notice the activity of thinking, do not get drawn into the content of thought)
I am washing dishes.

2. Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time drop the “I am” label
Sitting on a chair,
hearing radio podcast
looking at screen
feeling weary
thinking
writing

3. Finally, try the two together, first say with the "I am" label and next, after a moment, without: I am walking / walking.

I am sitting on a chair / sitting on a chair.
I am hearing a podcast / hearing a podcast,
I am looking at a screen / looking at a screen
I am feeling weary / feeling weary
I am thinking / thinking happening
I am washing dishes / washing dishes

Pay close attention to body sensations, watch what is happening in the body. Really take time to sense the difference.
It may be subtle.
What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….." ?
Contraction - tightening around shoulders and neck ( like an energy ready to act or intention to act with focus attention ).

What is the body sensation without "I am…."?
No noticeable body sensations ( not as above in "I am" case).

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Does one feel intuitively 'truer' than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?
Simply experience of here; without the why/logic.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
Labels add a sense of confusion to my mind - sense of unclearness and energy depletion - an added extra with need/process in mind to seek appropriate words to describe and/or categorise Experience.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body between the two ways?
Yes - contraction and tension with "I am" way. ( as I described in answer in previous exercises )

[Noro]

Hi Doug,

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels add a sense of confusion to my mind - sense of unclearness and energy depletion - an added extra with need/process in mind to seek appropriate words to describe and/or categorise Experience.

I can see that you have a great sensitivity, this is really helpful. One thing, please could you learn to use the quote function, shown above. This will be helpful especially later on when there might be multiple questions to answer. Here is a link to a short video showing how to use it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ


Here is an exercise that follows on from the last one:

HOW TO DISTINGUISH WHAT FEELS FREE AND ALIVE (TRUE) FROM WHAT FEELS CONTRACTED (FALSE/UNTRUE/LIE)

We often 'lie' every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes, there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you might have been grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you 'lied', "I'm fine."

In conventional or consensus reality we are not going to be airing everything that is going on in our lives, but it is important that we become aware of our inner state of body sensations. While the body sensations are true, meaning that our direct experience of them is real, the way we interpret them can be misleading.

Lies or untruths can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled, and this last point is the most important.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies can be felt in the upper body, often in the heart, solar plexus or arms, as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.
What you felt in the exercise above.


First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. You don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what body sensations arise as you listen.

Or, even looking at what happens in your body when you have a thought "I should have done ..............." or, "This should / should not have happened................."

Please report back with what body sensations (not interpretations) you felt and where in the body you felt the sensations.
Please share briefly several examples (2 or 3) from this inquiry.

I look forward to reading your experience with this.

Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,
Challenging/novel experience this: in looking into body sensations during lying¿
Doug
.

1. Lie: deceiving close friend about reason for recent trip away.

Conscious lying : hiding the truth.
Body sensations:
hollowness/emptiness in upper body ( chest )
Confused thinking and talking : restriction in jaw, unclear/tightness in head/brain

2A. Lie: Answering to friend's

verbal Q: "How are you ?"

. Unconscious/habitual response of protecting/hiding real truth.
Body sensations:
Immediate: noticing nothing unusual
Delayed : contracted sensation in back of neck muscles. Noticing the thinking and tightening around temple area - thoughts of self judgment, why I protect feelings .

2B. Lie: Responding to friend's

written Q: "How are you feeling?"

. Conscious & protecting response of hiding real truth.
Body sensations:
Immediate: noticing the "looking for truth" of my feelings now. Aware of breathing in and openness expansive of airways and chest.
Then noticing Thinking - thoughts of what words/labels to describe the truth and protect my identity.
Delayed : Lie in written response ( avoiding the question of true feelings ).
Sensations now: contracted sensation in back of neck muscles and shoulders. Noticing Thinking and confusion of mind/head area - thoughts of why i'm doing this? Is it protecting , not trusting and distracting from feelings?

[Noro]

Hi Doug,

Very good and thorough investigation. Keep at it, it will reveal a lot. Also, the more you become 'sensitive' to body sensations and allowing them to be part of your experience the more interesting and dynamic the experience becomes.

INVESTIGATION WITH AN APPLE
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. Place the piece of fruit in front of you on the table. If you don't have one to hand, you can go online and find a photo of an apple.

When looking at an apple in the usual way, we are looking at something in the visual field, and we will see that there's colour and then we will perceive a shape. Then thinking comes very quickly afterwards with a thought saying "apple" and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

In actual or direct experience we are simply seeing, and the simple act of seeing does not include any interpretations or descriptions. Those are overlayed through thought onto the visual experience which is totally non-conceptual.

In actual fact, nothing is named in direct experience, (think of a baby that is looking around in wonder), however, as a concession, for the sake of communicating we can allow a minimum of thought content, in order to do this exercise; so we can say that colors and shapes are seen, and thinking is also seen but without any thought content.

Actual experience does not refer to thought content (including labels, interpretations and descriptions) about something.

Actual experience refers to the raw data of sound, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thinking arising, but not its content of the thoughts.

So, as you do this apple exercise, is there really an 'apple' here or only color and shape and a thoughts (about 'apple'?)

Can an actual 'apple' be found in direct experience?

While thoughts or descriptions are known to the mind, what they talk about can't be found in direct experience.

I hope that this is clear for you. Let me know how you get on.

Rowena