To return home

[Anastacia42]

Hi Jay

I am told you asked for me or Vince. Vince is mostly only hosting his own site now. I do recommend his groups. Here is his info:

i have put countdown timers until each meeting on the home page of the website.

(scroll down) - no matter where in the world you are, this is literally the period before the next meeting.

There is a meetup every Saturday at 10 pm (Sydney Australia time)

and one each Monday 6 am ( Sydney Australia time) the recording of this meet is available to attendees only.

and each Wednesday at 6 pm (Sydney Australia time)

and every Friday 9am (Sydney time) - the recording of this meet is available to attendees only.

You can check your local time here:

https://www.worldtimebuddy.com

Please note that it's always the same time on the same link. Arriving late and leaving early is fine.

Click here to Join Zoom Meeting

https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 2Um5DQT09



If you'd like me to guide you I will. We will mostly do pointers. I don't do a lot of conversation. That's just thinking. See my sig line below.

I read your whole thread. It looks like you know that direct experience is the 5 senses plus the fact that I have thought arrived but not its content.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that.

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..


Direct or Actual Experience is


Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[Jstar]

Hi Stacy

Thanks for being willing to guide me. Thanks for the details of Vince's meetings - I do attend them when I can. Thank you for details of pointing. I have no questions and I am ready for the next step.

Regards
Jayan

[Anastacia42]

Excellent. I'm skipping a couple usually give. Let's go to this one:

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

Loving

[Anastacia42]

PS -be sure to Quote one question at a time & write your answer under that.

This is my usual introduction.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[Jstar]

HI Stacy,
Thank you again. Below are my response to your questions.
Regards
Jayan

How will life change?

I expect life to get lighter, without the burden of assuming there is someone in control and at the centre of experience. That might lead to moving through the world with some ease and the expressions being authentic. There will be intimacy with all of life.

How will you change?

Same answer as above. The personality may remain, yet there will be less seriousness, less drama and clinging. May be there will be joy, beauty and awe (not excluding all other experiences that may not be pleasant).

What will be different?

I would think everything will be different, because one has a different relationship with/understanding of life. Anything that turns up will not be resisted. There might be more clear seeing of situations and appropriate response. I guess there will be more humanity (compassion, love) in every interaction.

What is missing?

Right now, there is not much joy in my life, or love for that matter. I dont know if I am assuming it to be in a certain way. There is more seriousness, fear, hesitation, lack and guilt. There is a lot believing in thoughts - the experience might be a result of that? There is an image being maintained. A heaviness to life I would say.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Please call me Jayan. I am in India Time Zone, IST - Indian Standard time.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Thoughts 'pretend' as if they know. Direct experience does not match with thoughts. Thoughts label and conclude. They are so habituated that they feel loud. Sometimes taken as facts. They call it an apple and behind that there is an assumption of what it is. Yet in direct experience of looking, touching, tasting - there is a lot more than the label, that is beyond description and it is not just an apple that is experienced. Apple is something conceptual plucked out of the entirety of experience. There is a wide space of seeing, sounds from far and near, sensations, etc. and 'apple' is one part of it. Content of thoughts describe a small piece as if that is known.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

I dont know what is it. Apple is a name we call that, but what it really is, there is no way to know. All I experience is sensations and thoughts. Yet thought seems to hide the 'I dont know.'.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No. Apple cant be found in real experience. All that is here, is this experience, which is a lot to describe and too quick to change.

However, is an apple actually known?

No. I dont know if there is a way to know the apple, other than now I know it now as sensations and thoughts. So apple ends up as a label for a piece of a larger experience that cant be known. Yet I see moving in the world as if I know.

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

I can say apple is not known. I still believe the thought that it is an apple. I expect some experience to reveal that this is unknown. I notice the narration for a short while and then get caught in it.

[Anastacia42]

Okay.

Your expectations are a little high. Those could all happen over time. Seeing there is no self is only a beginning.

Have you seen these?

Watch these, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4


The answers are correct, but are mostly thoughts. It takes very few words to describe Direct Experience.

Next, if I ask you for Sensations, I mean only things a body can feel, such as temperature, weight & texture.

Please list some Sensation words here for practice.

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Please watch & read:

https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c?si=TZwuFEst-7Hsadpu

https://liberationunleashed.com/resourc ... -seeker/

Loving,

[Jstar]

Have you seen these? Watch these, please:
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

I have a vague memory of this. Cant say Yes or No.

and
https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

Yes. I have seen this. Watched it again now.

Please watch & read:

https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c?si=TZwuFEst-7Hsadpu

Yes. I have watched this. Watched it again now.

https://liberationunleashed.com/resourc ... -seeker/

Yes read this before. Read it again now.

Please list some Sensation words here for practice.

-pressure
-breathing
-contraction and expansion
-tingling, moving, tension, bursts of energy
-pulsing
-hearing, seeing
-heaviness

[Anastacia42]

Excellent.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies. I'm sure I've talked about this.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[Jstar]

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies. I'm sure I've talked about this.

I dont see where you have talked about this.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Yes. I lied to a close family member.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely. What is found?

-Painful sensations in the top of head, behind eyes, forehead, back of the head/neck
-tension/tightening/discomfort/vibrations/convulsions in lower jaw
-knot like in throat
-pulsing heaviness on the left of the body (heart/front, shoulders, back)
-heat in solar plexus, expanding and contracting
-similar deep in the belly, base of spine/anal region/left butt, below genitals
-energy moving in left leg
-body feels like a heavy thing
-breath becomes short and fast

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc. "Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.
Do you see that?

Yes.

[Anastacia42]

Good.

I'm not getting notifications so if it takes me a while, that's why.

Good noticing We're mostly concerned about your "gut feel." Your details are good.

Now try this:

Here is another exercise that makes it even clearer that labels are not the things they refer to. They are merely the content of thought that we made up.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with something called "reality." But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like "good" and "bad" are inherent characteristics of "things." But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
[/color]

Loving,

[Jstar]

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Just this experience. Seeing the word green included in the whole of experience of sensing, hearing and so on.

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

No.

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

No.

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

No

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

The label is just for for the experience.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Not at all.

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Labels have no effect on 'reality'.

[Anastacia42]

Good. You've got it.

The answer to the first question is "red." But otherwise, good.

If you're looking & ignoring thinking any one of these pointers can trigger the shift in perception.

What are you waiting for?


Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Pay attention to how it FEELS in your body.


Loving

[Jstar]

If you're looking & ignoring thinking any one of these pointers can trigger the shift in perception. What are you waiting for?

Nothing/dont know.

How is the movement controlled?

Dont know.

Does a thought control it?

No.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

I dont know how. Thought comes along with or after or before the tuning, there is no decision point, seems just to happen.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

I dont know.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

I have no idea.

Pay attention to how it FEELS in your body.

The sensations (moving in the neck and throat, open close, hiccup like, tension, heaviness) are noticed in the body (flapping and 'gur' sounds in the belly, left side of body, shoulders, left chest/heart, left arm, left leg, left back side, lower jaw, solar plexus. There is tingling around the eyes/front side of the face.

[Anastacia42]

Good details.

Any Sensation on your solar plexus? Tension? Relaxation?

Loving