Stuck in awareness trap

[Inthegarden]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no one inside actually in control and running my life. We are all part of one big whole that is in constant movement.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to see the truth. I want to see through the illusions that are making me suffer. I believe this will eventually lead to peace, but understand that there will be more work to do after seeing through self to get to that point.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope that my guide will be able to find where I am stuck in illusion. They will be able to challenge my beliefs in a way that will help me see clearly so that I can let go of beliefs that are not true.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I grew up going to a Christian church that encouraged each individual to seek for truth. I always felt like something was missing though. I learned to pray here, but eventually found the inconsistency between always asking for things to be different and reality. So my prayers change from asking for things to pleas to just be taught. I went through a very uncomfortable experience that helped me realize I don't have to believe thoughts. Then my search led me to some online teachers, such as Angelo Dillulo, Pernille Damour, and Shar Jason. Through Angelo's book and videos I began self inquiry and have been practicing it on and off. I am still suffering a great deal and always get stuck in self inquiry feeling like I must be the one aware of the thoughts and sensations.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[graceabounds]

Hello dear,

Thanks for your patience in waiting for a guide. I know it has been quite a while, are you still interested?

If so what name would you like for me to use here?

In gratitude,
Becca

[Inthegarden]

Yes! I am still interested. My name is Whitney. Thank you for being willing to spend your time with me.

[graceabounds]

Hi Whitney,

Great, here are my first questions, related to expectations:

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing? :)

In gratitude,
Becca

[Inthegarden]

What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I'm not sure exactly. I have a hard time answering this question because everything I can imagine has an I seeing/realizing. I guess I have the expectation that the insight will be clear.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I hope that life will be less of a struggle because there won't be an I fighting it. I do realize that this is the beginning and there will be more to see through though.

What do you want not to happen?

I don't want to be endlessly doubting and questioning anymore.

What are you hoping for?

I've heard others speak like they know so clearly. Like there's no question anymore. That is what I hope for. I want to be free of the constant doubts and searching. I want to see this so clearly that I can't unsee it.

What is missing? :)

I'm not sure. I suppose there has just been this feeling like there has to be a better way to live life. Overall life has been pretty good for me relative to some of the things I see around, but there's still been a sense of dissatisfaction.

[graceabounds]

Hi Whitney,

Nothing too radical here. We will know we are done when the seeking energy dissolves. :)

I've heard others speak like they know so clearly. Like there's no question anymore. That is what I hope for. I want to be free of the constant doubts and searching

My request is, to the best of your ability, set down the focus on others’ experiences. In retrospect perhaps there will be some similarities to be found, but also there will be differences and none of this can be anticipated… the end of seeking is entirely unique for every gatecrasher.

Is doubt present in other areas of life beyond the spiritual?


Please read and say to yourself several times: *There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be*

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed.

Don't try to get anything right, just share what is seen, unfiltered. Generally this process will be driven by seeing what is already happening, what is already the case. What is effortlessly seen while engaging questions and exercises is what is important. What you actually write me is secondary to that.

-Becca

[Inthegarden]

Is doubt present in other areas of life beyond the spiritual?

Yes, definitely alot of doubt now that I think about it. My first thought was that I doubt people. I have a hard time trusting other people. Partly because I've realized no one has the exact values I do. But also because of past hurts.
And I also second guess myself alot. I have a hard time making decisions then question whether I made the right one.

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed.

Tension in my stomach/chest area initially. Then it turned to my eyes welling up with tears.

[graceabounds]

How is doubt known? How is it recognized?

Is there a physical manifestation of doubt or is it solely in thought?

The next time you make even a tiny decision watch closely.
Does the decision appear…

…and then the doubting thought arrives?

Or does the doubting thought make the decision?

Look in direct experience. Don’t answer from memory.

[Inthegarden]

I am still looking at this. I have had a couple of pretty routine days, so not alot of doubt, but this is what I've noticed so far.

How is doubt known? How is it recognized?

The doubt is a thought. I see it in two different circumstances, but always when more than one outcome can be imagined (maybe the same root as the word double).
The first is with future thoughts. Sometimes the doubt comes before a decision is made and I want to avoid making the "wrong" choice.
The second is with past thoughts. Sometimes it happens after the decision is made and the thought is wishing that the decision had been different.

Is there a physical manifestation of doubt or is it solely in thought?

Yes, there is a yucky feeling accompanying it. It can be quite subtle though. I really had to watch for it with the more routine days. This seems to be what triggers the "maybe a wrong decision was made" thoughts.

Does the decision appear…

…and then the doubting thought arrives?

Or does the doubting thought make the decision?

With the future thoughts, the doubt is a reaction to another thought. A decision hasn't been made in reality, a decision only arises in thought. Then the doubt thought arises.
With past thoughts, the decision just appears in reality, then the doubting thought appears.

[graceabounds]

Are future or past available except in thought?

Can you tell me more about the yucky feeling? How is it known? Where is it centered? Does it move? Investigate in direct experience. What is found?


1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

[Inthegarden]

Are future or past available except in thought?

No, without thinking they are not available. There is only now.

Can you tell me more about the yucky feeling? How is it known? Where is it centered? Does it move? Investigate in direct experience. What is found?

There is a sensation sometimes in the gut, sometimes in the chest or throat. There is some movement. Sometimes it is quick and subtle. I've also had it intense and in waves. I don't know how it is known. It just arises like thoughts do. Maybe sensations are thoughts too? They don't seem to exist until the mind focuses on them.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

I don't know. I let the fingers contract and expand in addition to flipping the hand. Sometimes they moved in a pattern sometimes randomly. (I say let, but I don't know if there was really a decision to move the fingers too. It just felt more natural than simply flipping the palm back and forth) There wasn't any decision made beforehand on which finger should move when. The body just seems to move all on its own. Then when the mind notices, it takes ownership. When I look for a controller I end up with a sensation behind the eyes. I can't find one. Yet there still seems to be something aware of the thoughts and sensations happening. Maybe, when focused on thinking what to write my hand moved up to my chin, but there wasn't any awareness it was moving until the mind was pulled in that direction by the sensation of the hand touching the chin. I don't know?

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No I can't find an individual self, but all of this is still arising. I don't know. It seems that if all thought stopped then maybe I would cease to exist, but I'm not sure.

[graceabounds]

You’re looking carefully, and that’s the important part. Don’t rush to resolve the uncertainty. “I don’t know” is often closer to direct experience than a polished answer.

When I look for a controller I end up with a sensation behind the eyes. I can't find one

That sensation behind the eyes, before the label “behind the eyes,” before “it’s where I am” what actually is it?

Is it anything more than sensation?
Does that sensation itself know anything?
Does it observe?
Does it make decisions?

…Or is it simply another appearance, no different in principle from the sensation in the throat or gut?

(Don’t answer from memory. Look.)

Yet there still seems to be something aware of the thoughts and sensations happening

Now investigate the seeming.

Right now, a thought appears.
Another thought notices, “a thought appeared.”

Where, exactly, is the one that is aware?

Look for the one that is supposedly doing the aware-ing.

The body just seems to move all on its own. Then when the mind notices, it takes ownership

Bravo.
Now paying attention to little actions or events throughout the day, can you ever catch the ownership before the movement?

It seems that if all thought stopped then maybe I would cease to exist, but I'm not sure.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Take a close look in this gap.

Does existence disappear? or did only the narration disappear?

[Inthegarden]

That sensation behind the eyes, before the label “behind the eyes,” before “it’s where I am” what actually is it?

Is it anything more than sensation?
Does that sensation itself know anything?
Does it observe?
Does it make decisions?

…Or is it simply another appearance, no different in principle from the sensation in the throat or gut?

It is simply a feeling just like any other sensation in the body. That is becoming more and more apparent the more that I look at it. It has no control, no ability to observe, no ability to make decisions. Those are only thoughts added to it. It is only ever found to be sensation upon examination.

Where, exactly, is the one that is aware?

I can't find the one who is aware. All I can find are sensations and thought. Yet my mind doesn't want to accept that. There is usually a thought that arises saying something like, "Yes, but there had to be someone or something recognizing the thoughts and sensations." I see that it's just a thought, but there's also this thought that recognizes that if I were to go out to the desert and hunt for a lizard, even if I don't find the lizard it doesn't mean it's not there.

Now paying attention to little actions or events throughout the day, can you ever catch the ownership before the movement?

The body just moves. Then the thoughts label the movement as mine. I've also observed that sometimes the mind can have a commanding thought telling the body to move and the body doesn't always follow the command. The ownership is more just a way of communicating. Just like when we talk about the hand. It's not separate from the rest of the body, but we have a label for it for ease of communication when we want to reference that specific part.

Take a close look in this gap.

Does existence disappear? or did only the narration disappear?

Only the narration disappears. When there is a gap between thoughts, the mind just rests on a different sensation. Often the feeling behind the eyes, but it can be anything - another body sensation, a sound, a sight. There is no labeling of it though.

[graceabounds]

Your lizard analogy is interesting because the mind quietly slips in an assumption. If you search the desert and don't find a lizard, the conclusion is not "there are no lizards." That's true. But notice what is different here.

A lizard is the kind of thing that could, in principle, be found. It has shape, color, location, size. There are criteria for what would count as finding one. Now ask the same question about this "one who is aware." What would finding it actually look like?

Would it have a location? A shape? A boundary? A sensation? A color? A sound?

If none of those apply, what exactly is being searched for?

There is usually a thought that arises saying something like, "Yes, but there had to be someone or something recognizing the thoughts and sensations."

Is that anything more than grammar? Language requires a subject and a verb:
I see.
She hears.
Someone is aware.
etc...
But does experience come packaged that way?

Or is there simply seeing?
Simply hearing?
Simply thinking?

So here:

When there is a gap between thoughts, the mind just rests on a different sensation.

Take a look. Does the mind rest? Or is there just sensation?

And can the very next thought simply arise, exactly like a sound arises, without introducing an owner?

[Inthegarden]

[quote]What would finding it actually look like?

Would it have a location? A shape? A boundary? A sensation? A color? A sound?
If none of those apply, what exactly is being searched for?[/quote]

You're correct. Having never been found there is no insight into what it would look like, feel like, etc. Having never known it, it is just a concept like any other fantastical creature. Yet the seeking persists.

[quote]But does experience come packaged that way?

Or is there simply seeing?
Simply hearing?
Simply thinking?[/quote]

The experience comes first, then the label is added. The sight is seen, then comes the thought of my eyes seeing it. The sound is heard, then comes the thought that my ears heard it.

[quote]Take a look. Does the mind rest? Or is there just sensation?And can the very next thought simply arise, exactly like a sound arises, without introducing an owner?[/quote]
I'm continuing to look at this. There is a sensation, yet there also seems to be a subtle noticing or attention thought. (This is the awareness that still feels like a me, though I realize that the "me" label is an afterthought.) Otherwise the sensations would simply happen without any recognition. Yes, the next thought can arise, or another sensation, and be acknowledged without adding an owner. The owner is just a label added afterwards.