seeking freedom

[danielak]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is there is no one in command about what, when and how I or anyone think or feel. I understand that they're happening by themselves, that life is happening without having a subject making it happen. And I believe this guidance is about us seeing that clearly, seeing that what we call "I" or "mine" are all ideas, thoughts, memories,

What are you looking for at LU?
I feel as if I'm tired of my mind, so unstable, always looking for answers here and there, and I'm realizing that I'm just walking in circles, fooling myself, jumping from one religion to another, from one spiritual practice to another, and from one psychological technique to another. I have tried so many things, and in many moments I thought I had found the path, but I never "arrived". I'm becoming increasingly clear that I cannot trust my mind, but on the other hand I'm still not able to see clearly the other option. I want clarity, I want to live from a place of freedom, peace, and joy.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have read the book and listened to the podcast, so I have an idea of how the guided conversation goes, and just by doing this, it has already had a huge impact on me. But I'm looking for a guided conversation to help me stay focused on my own process — I feel I can easily get distracted, confused, and frustrated. I believe that with guidance I can see the truth, being honest and focused on this process and not run away so easily. I guess the guidance helps to avoid the mind taking over, confusing me, causing me to give up. So I believe it's a way to help me see clearly and be truly committed to this process.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have done so many things! My "self awareness" journey started around 20 years ago. I have been part of different religions, have done different spiritual practices, and tried different therapeutic or psychological techniques. It's an extensive list, but in summary: my first "spiritual experience" was through yoga, then Johrei, I became part of two religions that involves channeling entities — first Kardecist Spiritism, then Umbanda, an Afro-Brazilian religion, which is where I'm from. I spent a year living in a spiritual retreat where spiritual healing was practiced. In the meantime, I also did therapy, coaching, meditation, and reading self-help books. My interest in understanding the mind was so strong that not only did I go deep on this topic by studying and practicing, but it also led me to become a life coach.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[graceabounds]

Hello.

Thanks for your patience in waiting for a guide. I would be happy to be with you in this exploration.

My request is that you focus here, pausing participation in other non-dual teachings, books, media, and spiritual practices for the duration of our time together. If you already have a meditation practice, keeping that active could be useful, but is not at all required if you don’t already practice in this way.

What name would you like to be called?

In gratitude,
Becca

[danielak]

Dear Becca,

Thank you so much for your availability to guide me! I'm very excited about this opportunity and I was looking forward to it!
You can call me Daniela. And yes, I understand your request and I won't be involved in any other teachings.

Thank you so much!
Daniela

[graceabounds]

Fabulous, Daniela

Here are the first questions, related to expectations.

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

In gratitude,
Becca

[danielak]

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I believe I would trust more in life, stopping trying to control everything. Also, accepting things as they are, including accepting my conditionings instead of trying to avoid/resist them, that would mean being more open, peaceful and joyful.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I guess I would see life from a different perspective, I know life keeps going as usual (I have read Ilona's books), but maybe I won't be so much in my head, so entangle in my thoughts, emotions, stories, not so much in the past or future. I guess I would be enjoying the present moment.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I don't want to keep seeking, I don't want this to be one more new teachings that I found, that I dive in thinking that I finally found the path to freedom until I realize this's not it and jump to something else.

4. What are you hoping for?

I'm hoping to find freedom from this illusion of the self. I'm hoping to see the truth. I'm hoping to realize that I don't need to seek anymore. I'm hoping to finally get it!

5. What is missing?

As I mentioned, I have already read Ilona's books, and they're very impactful to me. If you had asked me these things before, the answers would have been quite different. My understanding now is that the only thing missing is to see, to realize, to wake up.

[graceabounds]

Great. Nothing too extraordinary here, Ilona’s books likely helped. At the end of seeking we will perhaps revisit them.

Please read and say to yourself several times: *There is no separate self, there never was, there never will be*

After each time you read or say it, notice what happens, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements... And write here what is noticed.

Don't try to get anything right, just share what is seen, unfiltered. Generally this process will be driven by seeing what is already happening, what is already the case. What is effortlessly seen while engaging questions and exercises is what is important. What you actually write me is secondary to that.

-Becca

[danielak]

Good morning Becca,

There are few things happening as I read it: I noticed the worry about trying to get it right, or an effort to be effortless. A tension to "really" notice what I'm noticing as I read it. At the same time a sensation in the middle of my chest, like an open hole, but a tension there, like condensed energy. And when I look at the meaning of the sentence, I get a bit lost, sad, confused, scared.
As I'm readying it now again, this sadness is getting more clear and I even feel like crying. emotions are coming and I started to cry, but it's not so clear why I'm crying. It feels impactful that "never was and never will be", this infinity/ emptiness is kind of scary

[graceabounds]

Beautiful.

Let the body react. This is a perfect time to not make meaning out of what is happening on its own.

Is the sensation scary or is that a thought afterward?


Is the sensation lost?
Where would the condensed energy like to go?

[danielak]

Hi Becca,

Yesterday I had a busy day and I wanted to write when I'm not distracted or in a rush. But the thing is that I may had lost momentum here.
Now reading the sentence again it's not as impactful as before. I notice thoughts coming and I getting distracted. I guess my mind is trying to "get it" wha that really means, but becomes something vage..
But reflecting on your questions:

Is the sensation scary or is that a thought afterward?

a sensation can not be scary by nature, it's the meaning that I give to it. But it can be unpleasant...I guess this too is giving meaning to it, right?!

Is the sensation lost?

Yes. I wish I could explore that feeling, but it's gone. When I read it now, it's like non personal, doesn't have an impact on me. Even though, when I pay attention to my body I can feel this mild compressed energy in the middle of my chest, regardless . It's subtle, but it's there.

Where would the condensed energy like to go?

For a moment it felt like the source of energy of my body, and didn't want to go anywhere. But then staying with it a bit longer, I feel the tension, the contraction. and it seems that it just want to be loosed , not necessary going somewhere else, but to relax and release/dissipate some of this energy.
This sensation is with me during my daily life, and somethings I even feel my heart speeding up because if it, and I have one or two harder heartbeat. This's something that started few months ago.

Note: My apology for my English, as you can tell it's not my first language. Also, I'm not sure how is the dynamic of these chats. I'm responding when I have a proper moment to be by myself and not in a rush, but I also don't want to lose the momentum. In general a good time for me to write is earlier morning or at bedtime and I'm on Eastern Time Zone btw.
Thank you very much for your guidance Becca! have a beautiful day

[graceabounds]

No need no recreate or manufacture anything. Always I only ask for honesty with what is happening now.

With the sensation of fear, yes it is the meaning given to it, that is correct. But there can be resistance to being with those sensations and a kind of avoidance of looking can happen as a result.

So, having a busy day is fine. Take time to look when you have some space for it. But if you find that when there is time procrastination or avoidance or distraction occurs let me know that and we can look closer at that and set up a structure to support. :)

This sensation is with me during my daily life, and somethings I even feel my heart speeding up because if it, and I have one or two harder heartbeat. This's something that started few months ago.

Could you tell me more about this? Does it happen often?

The next time you notice it look at it, and then look behind it. What do you see?

Is it protecting something?

[danielak]

Thank you so much Becca,

The sensation in my chest I don't notice if I'm not paying attention, but about the stronger heart beating happens maybe once a day, normally when I think about something stressful that I have to solve or something that is worrying me. And in general it's nothing dramatic or very important, just an annoying situation is enough for this to happen. And as I said, it's something that started recently.

About the emptiness or energy compression in my chest I'll try to observe and see if I notice a pattern when it happens.

And talking about avoidance, that maybe be related to this "emptiness" sensation, I have difficult to be in an "empty" space, I always have to be doing something, bothers me not having what to do, I can be considered a "doer". And that also applies to eating, that's a big compulsion that I have, I eat when I don't know what do to, when I'm tired, or stress. I feel an urgency to eat something (kind of filling in this empty space), and when I do it I feel guilty and regret it. And I have tried to look behind it while it happens, but this conditioning takes over and it seems stronger, and I can't look at it. When you talk about looking behind the sensation and see what it's protecting, I have tried with this eating conditioning and I couldn't do it.

Maybe I'm a bit off the topic, but when you ask me to look behind and see what it's protecting, it reminds me this situation. Where I just couldn't do it.

And I appreciate very much your offering me support if I'm procrastinating. But I don't think it's the case, actually I'm very dedicate to it and I'm always looking forward to chatting with you, this's is my top priority!

have a beautiful night!

[graceabounds]

Hi Daniela,

Are you the do-er of the doing?
Are you the eater eating?

Could it be that the body, this sensation, is responding to the LIE of an ‘I’?

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts — examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Also you aren’t going to love hearing this but the ‘gate’ you seek likely lies in sitting in that empty space. Is there an ‘I’ there? In the gap between thoughts? When nothing is happening? Take a look.

-Becca

[danielak]

Are you the do-er of the doing?
Are you the eater eating?

Even though I know there is not, I feel that there is a eater/ doer..
However, when I did the hand exercise it was very interesting! I could notice that it's not my thoughts that's deciding how and what to do, I couldn't find any controller. However, there was a clear intention to do the exercise, there was an information processed in my brain, the cognitive part of understanding your instructions and an intention to do the exercise wit the understanding that it's part of my "awaking process". What I mean it that there was a deliberate intention to do it, but as you ask what hand I choose , the speed of the movement, the time to stop. That all there was no controller , and I even noticed that after doing the hand exercise, I was scratching my nose, that was totally involuntary.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

I couldn't find anyone/ anything making this choice. Tat was very interesting to notice.

Also you aren’t going to love hearing this but the ‘gate’ you seek likely lies in sitting in that empty space.

I know!!! And I'm ready for the discomfort, which by the way is already happening...Even so, when I meditate and be in this empty space and it's very pleasant, I guess my challenge is filling the gaps between things to do, and even meditation becomes something to do.

Is there an ‘I’ there? In the gap between thoughts? When nothing is happening? Take a look.

In those moments "I" can obverse my thoughts and the sensations and senses becomes more vivid, but I cannot find an I....

[graceabounds]

However, there was a clear intention to do the exercise, there was an information processed in my brain, the cognitive part of understanding your instructions and an intention to do the exercise wit the understanding that it's part of my "awaking process".

Did you observe information being processed in your brain?

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for a while.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labeling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.
Give it some time…
Then, stop watching the objects as labeled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience.

In direct experience, is there any “brain processing” available, or is there simply a thought saying, “My brain processed the information”?

Were you the owner of the intention, or is that too a thought?

In those moments "I" can obverse my thoughts

So are there two? The one who thinks and the one who observes?

Are you responsible for the thoughts that arise?


Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.

Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?


-Becca

[danielak]

Good morning Becca,

In direct experience, is there any “brain processing” available, or is there simply a thought saying, “My brain processed the information”?

You're right! this exercise was very helpful. I could see that when I look at things, make a story about them (which btw I could identify a "doer" conditioning, everything that I looked at there was something that I have to do about it, clean, organize, move away..anyway, just an observation). And than I could understand what you mean about direct experience. In direct experience, I could notice the seeing happening and also thoughts happening, that is it.

Were you the owner of the intention, or is that too a thought?

You're right, intention and brain processing information are just thoughts, interpretations, not direct experience.

I also did the other exercise to notice the arising thoughts, and again it was quite interesting:

Where are they coming from and going to?

I can not tell, they just appears and disappears.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, but it seems that a thought can guide to another thought, like if a thought appears saying that I should think about what to do for lunch, the next thought would be thinking and planning the lunch. What I mean it that it feels that a thought can make another thought appear.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No

Can you predict your next thought?

No, but it feels that it can have some pre disposition as I mentioned before.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No

an you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Here I got caught. I cannot predict a first thought, but it feels I can guide them, no 100%, but putting some focus in a direction, for example I have a thought of choosing to shift a negative thought to a positive narrative. So I'm having a negative thought, that I cannot prevent from appearing, but with this previous intention (thought), I could think about a positive aspect of the situation. Or even thinking about something more banal, being able to focus on work/ on a task. I have a thought that I have to finish writing an article, I can guide my thought to do this task. And that guides me to your last question about thoughts having an organized sequence. While doing the exercise they didn't have it at all, I was just observing they coming and going, and they're very random. But I sense that I can organize them.

One thing that comes to mind is, when I was reading Ilona's book, I did this experience of observing babies. In this case it's easier to see that there is no controller, they're spontaneous, no thoughts controlling anything. But in adults I feel that there is a kind of control. Let's say I have the intention that every morning I'll make a prayer. this is a thought that creates a predicted though, so in this case I know what I'm gonna be thinking . There is where I get confused, I guess