Help seeing through the separate self

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

"Anger is not an emotion but a reaction."

Thanks for this, I have been pondering over this since yesterday! This makes you think about emotions a little differently. When you think of any emotion as a reaction there is less resistance to it. It is a natural phenomena over which there is no control.

Would you like to find something over the weekend where there was resistance to what was arising and make a list that itemizes the steps backward through interpretation > body sensation > interpretation > body sensation and see how far you can go with that?

This is what I found - my mum popped in unexpectedly. I wasn't feeling too well and just wanted to go and sit on the sofa. I didn't say anything but irritation began to arise. I then thought I shouldn't be feeling irritated, she has just popped in for a coffee. There was a tightening in the throat. I traced this back to several of my core beliefs which I identified when I had CBT.

My worth comes from being productive, organised, and seen to be trying hard.
I should not need help, and if I do, I should earn it without asking.
If I show too much of how I really feel, I might be rejected or left.
If people around me are unsettled, I need to fix it or I am not safe.

I was surprised at how many of my core beliefs were knocked over by this one little thing! I realise this is not a therapy session, so if this is too much please let me know—it might be something I need to work on with someone else!

But looking at all of this right now through the inquiry, I can see how completely automatically these beliefs and physical sensations fired off. There was no 'me' choosing to feel irritated or choosing to activate those old rules—the whole reaction just ran on autopilot.

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

"Anger is not an emotion but a reaction."

Thanks for this, I have been pondering over this since yesterday! This makes you think about emotions a little differently. When you think of any emotion as a reaction there is less resistance to it. It is a natural phenomena over which there is no control.

Yes, I suppose that could include any emotion, an unexpected outpouring of grief or sadness or even happiness, but anger is a kind of secondary 'emotion' that is pushing away the primary emotion or sensation. Like the sadness you experienced. It is more like that. Anger is always worth investigating as it is pushing back at something, so the question is what is it pushing back at?

This is what I found - my mum popped in unexpectedly. I wasn't feeling too well and just wanted to go and sit on the sofa. I didn't say anything but irritation began to arise. I then thought I shouldn't be feeling irritated, she has just popped in for a coffee. There was a tightening in the throat. I traced this back to several of my core beliefs which I identified when I had CBT.

Wow, what a treasure trove you have found!
First of all, "I thought I shouldn't be feeling irritated!"
Look at that thought! Can you see the dualistic mind at work here.... An "I" that cannot be found to exist as a separate entity but only as a thought, thinking that "it" (2nd "I" that cannot be found to exist separately) should be behaving differently!!!

If irritated is a reaction (like anger) could you control that reaction? AND more importantly, what was irritated pointing in the body? It always starts there in the body, the "I" movement begins as a contraction in the body.

My worth comes from being productive, organised, and seen to be trying hard.
I should not need help, and if I do, I should earn it without asking.
If I show too much of how I really feel, I might be rejected or left.
If people around me are unsettled, I need to fix it or I am not safe.

It is so great that you are already aware of these core beliefs. And, you are not alone with these kind of beliefs.
And, remember, what's in the way IS the way!
Perhaps you already looked into this patterns below, but here are some suggestions for working with these beliefs. Looking at the worst case scenario and then feeling it in the body. Only take one at a time so as not to overwhelm your nervous system.

1. How does trying hard FEEL in the body? Fill in first thought best thought
"If I dont try hard then ............................."
"And that will mean that ............................."
"And then I will be ...................................."
How does that FEEL in the body?

I would like to share this with you as I had the same mechanism running and I found that 'trying' was a huge and useless sensation of efforting that was actually restricting the movements of what I was 'trying' to do. In other words, it was totally counter productive!! Like pushing against a brick wall and expecting some result!

2. "If I ask for help that would mean I ................."
And the I will be ..........................................."
How does that FEEL in the body?

3. "If I am rejected or left then I will be ................."
And that will mean ..........................................."
How does that FEEL in the body?

4. "What would happen if I didn't try to fix it?
How does not being safe FEEL in the body?

But looking at all of this right now through the inquiry, I can see how completely automatically these beliefs and physical sensations fired off. There was no 'me' choosing to feel irritated or choosing to activate those old rules—the whole reaction just ran on autopilot.

This is really great Ellie!

And how is it now to have these beliefs and physical sensations running while all the while knowing that there is no separate "me" that is involved in any way, that it is all old patterns running on autopilot?
Do any of those beliefs relate to an actual independent, separate self, "I" , Ellie?
Is it okay for those beliefs to be there and offer the opportunity for deeper inquiry?
Who, what, or where is Ellie in your direct experience?.

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

For some reason I didn't get an email notification of last nights reply. It normally comes straight to my email but I checked this morning and saw you had already replied. I checked I'm still subscribed and I am so not sure what's going on there. Anyway just to let you know I might be slow to notice a reply but I will keep logging in to look!

Anger is always worth investigating as it is pushing back at something, so the question is what is it pushing back at?

Thank you for clarifying this, I will do some further investigation if anger comes up.

An "I" that cannot be found to exist as a separate entity but only as a thought, thinking that "it" (2nd "I" that cannot be found to exist separately) should be behaving differently!!!

Yes, that is hilarious when you think about it!

If irritated is a reaction (like anger) could you control that reaction? AND more importantly, what was irritated pointing in the body? It always starts there in the body, the "I" movement begins as a contraction in the body.

No it can't be controlled. It was a contraction in the throat and chest. It's strange to think that an "I" movement feels like a contraction whereas no "I" is an expansive feeling. I supposed that makes sense now I think about it as a contraction is turning inwards, so shrinking away to protect itself.

And how is it now to have these beliefs and physical sensations running while all the while knowing that there is no separate "me" that is involved in any way, that it is all old patterns running on autopilot?

It feels like a bit of a relief really, that there was nothing "I" could do differently. It's is just how it is.

Do any of those beliefs relate to an actual independent, separate self, "I" , Ellie?

No

Is it okay for those beliefs to be there and offer the opportunity for deeper inquiry?

Yes! Just because there is no "I" that doesn't mean lying down like a door mat and letting them walk all over "me", deeper inquiry can still happen.

Who, what, or where is Ellie in your direct experience?.

Ellie is a persona, a character in the play of life who reacts automatically to the experience of things as a result of a million things which happened before over which "she" had no control. She isn't anywhere but just a creation in the mind!

I will work on the other investigations over the course of the next day or so.

Warmly,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

Yes strange things can happen with the forum and so it is good to keep checking. Like the glitch that happened from my end. Very odd!!

If irritated is a reaction (like anger) could you control that reaction? AND more importantly, what was irritated pointing in the body? It always starts there in the body, the "I" movement begins as a contraction in the body.

No it can't be controlled. It was a contraction in the throat and chest. It's strange to think that an "I" movement feels like a contraction whereas no "I" is an expansive feeling. I supposed that makes sense now I think about it as a contraction is turning inwards, so shrinking away to protect itself.

I love that you are experiencing this directly!

Yes, an "I" or "me" movement (and it is really great if you can see it as a movement) is associated with a sense of contraction. Do you remember the early exercise of noting what you were doing and writing it down first as "I am sitting" and the second time simply "sitting"? Here was your reply back then:

4. Did you notice any differences in the body between the two ways?

What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….." - this feels more like it is in my head, there is definitely a contraction there
What is the body sensation without the add-on of "I am…."? - this feels more open, maybe from my heart more.

This showed great sensitivity already back then, and this sensitivity can be your guide. 'Contracted' simply means that something; some belief, assumption or expectation is in the way of clear seeing and experiencing. And 'contracted' can be welcomed as a body sensation (energy build-up) that is ready to be fully felt in order for it to be released.

Who, what, or where is Ellie in your direct experience?.

Ellie is a persona, a character in the play of life who reacts automatically to the experience of things as a result of a million things which happened before over which "she" had no control. She isn't anywhere but just a creation in the mind!

LOVE IT! So clear :)

How is it to experience the clarity of these words?
What happens when this 're-cognition' occurs?

'Re-cognition' is the name of the game that could otherwise be likened to 'hide and seek' !!
I look forward to what follows. Have a great day Ellie,

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

Ellie is a persona, a character in the play of life who reacts automatically to the experience of things as a result of a million things which happened before over which "she" had no control. She isn't anywhere but just a creation in the mind!
LOVE IT! So clear :)

How is it to experience the clarity of these words?
What happens when this 're-cognition' occurs?

Goosebumps! It feels like love is pouring out of my heart and also a little sadness for this character and how personally all of it has been taken.


1

. How does trying hard FEEL in the body? Fill in first thought best thought
"If I dont try hard then ...

People will think "I" am lazy

"And that will mean that ...

I will be rejected

"And then I will be...

..alone

How does that FEEL in the body?

There is a deep sadness, a tightness in the throat and contraction in the heart but a feeling that this can't be true.

More to follow!

Ellie

[Noro]

Good going Ellie,

How is it to experience the clarity of these words?
What happens when this 're-cognition' occurs?

Goosebumps! It feels like love is pouring out of my heart and also a little sadness for this character and how personally all of it has been taken.

Yes, beautiful. This is the way it goes. Love and sadness and compassion go hand in hand. It starts here, with oneself and then spreads out to others.

"If I dont try hard then ... People will think "I" am lazy.......
I will be rejected
..alone

How does that FEEL in the body?

There is a deep sadness, a tightness in the throat and contraction in the heart.

Yes, stay with the body sensations and that sadness, accompany it. Little Ellie who was always trying so hard to please and for others to think of her in a good way. This is a core thread you have touched on here, and the thing is, the more you stay with the sensations as they arise, the more you will see that the interpretations are just mental overlay to try and escape the feelings.

but a feeling that this can't be true.

Remember that feelings don't talk! But you are on the right track. You can always do a bit of Byron Katie's "The Work" by simply asking "Is this true?" of your heart/your beingness, NOT you mind, and wait for the response. And you don't have to go all the way to the turn around.

Keep staying with the sensations and you will eventually see that what you have been trying to escape from are your own sensations. In child speak "this doesn't feel good so "I" must be wrong," and all the patterns of behavior develop out of one early conclusion like that..

Remember not to overload with too much at one time! But it will be interesting to see the conclusions arrived at and how they are experienced as you work with the previous belief.

Warm wishes,

Rowena

[Noro]

Here is a really great conversation on awakening

https://youtu.be/gRMs8LSA1aM?is=-ULv6fsnyjdGh46b

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

I know you said not to overload my system but there is a great feeling of determination to look at these together (and I have a lot of time to myself this morning!). It seems that there is an overall pattern to all of them...

2. "If I ask for help that would mean I ................."

Am incompetant

And then I will be ..........................................."

seen to be weak/not independent

How does that FEEL in the body?

Similar to the first one, a contraction in the heart.

3. "If I am rejected or left then I will be ................."

I will be alone

And that will mean ..........................................."

I am unloveable

How does that FEEL in the body?

An aching in the heart.

4. "What would happen if I didn't try to fix it?

I would be out of control.

How does not being safe FEEL in the body?

An anxious, contraction of the heart.

These all seem to come down to the same thing - not wanting to be rejected and left alone because I am unlovable. A feeling of being out of control. But "I" can't control anything. I tried the...is it true...and there was just a feeling of love in my heart. I had a sudden memory as a child of being forgotten and left alone. My parents, my mum in particular, isn't able to show love very easily. I suddenly feel a great sadness and empathy towards her, like I want to give her a big hug and show her that she is loved.

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

How wonderful is your determination, I can get the vibe from here!

What great insights you now have to work with.

And can you see how the urges of no. 2 (seen to be weak/not independent) have played out in your life having that belief droning in the background, and how body sensations energetically pulling you away from a state of ease. So there is a constant 'mechanism' of efforting operating in the background to prove you are not incompetent or weak. Remember the words/beliefs are pointers to what is really a conditioned response of constant contracting, tensing up and efforting against letting it all go and letting it all hang out in complete incompetence! No self, no problem.... just patterns of conditioning to be seen through!

Something interesting to investigate: Do you quietly check on other people and have thoughts about their competence or incompetence. I think mostly we are a lot harder on ourselves, and this could lead the inquiry straight to point No. 4.

4. "What would happen if I didn't try to fix it?.......I would be out of control.
How does not being safe FEEL in the body? : An anxious, contraction of the heart.

Forgive me if the following questions are a bit redundant, as I know you know how to look clearly at what is arising.

Who or what is this "I" that wants control?
Can that "I" be found as a separate entity anywhere other than a thought?
What in my direct experience right here is this thought pointing to?
Can I be fully present in my body with this feeling to which the thought "out of control" refers?
Does any particular event in the past come to mind of "out of control" ?
Does any particular even in the future come to mind of "out of control"?
Can you see that thoughts/memories about the past/future can only happen NOW?
In your direct experience, can NOW ever not be NOW?

These all seem to come down to the same thing - not wanting to be rejected and left alone because I am unlovable.

Don't forget that is the conclusion reached by a child's mind. "Something "I" did, becomes something "I" am"

A feeling of being out of control. But "I" can't control anything. I tried the...is it true...and there was just a feeling of love in my heart. I had a sudden memory as a child of being forgotten and left alone. My parents, my mum in particular, isn't able to show love very easily. I suddenly feel a great sadness and empathy towards her, like I want to give her a big hug and show her that she is loved.

That is beautiful Ellie.

So, I am just throwing out more questions, and I can see that you are seeing clearly for yourself.

Is it true that you are unloveable?
Is there any 'one' that can be judged to be either lovable or unloveable?
Are you in control of your actions?
Are other people in control of their actions?
Are there even independent, separate, others who can be in control, or not, of their actions?

Keep on with the sharing, and also share the precious insights of joy, freedom and openness to what is happening in your daily routine as well as the challenges that arise. There is ultimately no real difference since the joyous moments as well as the challenging ones belong to no 'one' in particular!!

Warm wishes,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

Something interesting to investigate: Do you quietly check on other people and have thoughts about their competence or incompetence. I think mostly we are a lot harder on ourselves, and this could lead the inquiry straight to point No. 4.

4. "What would happen if I didn't try to fix it?.......I would be out of control.
How does not being safe FEEL in the body? : An anxious, contraction of the heart.

I do have thoughts about others incompetence, but how hard I am on them depends on the person and what mood I'm in! I think generally I am a lot harder on myself.

Forgive me if the following questions are a bit redundant, as I know you know how to look clearly at what is arising.

Not at all, I think it is important to keep going back to this!

Who or what is this "I" that wants control?

To minimise any negative reactions from other people, but that clearly isn't possible!

Can that "I" be found as a separate entity anywhere other than a thought?

No

What in my direct experience right here is this thought pointing to?

A feeling that other people can be controlled!

Can I be fully present in my body with this feeling to which the thought "out of control" refers?

Yes

Does any particular event in the past come to mind of "out of control" ?

Yes, people arguing and being angry at each other.

Does any particular even in the future come to mind of "out of control"?

Things being messy, and unorderly.

Can you see that thoughts/memories about the past/future can only happen NOW?

Yes we can only be in the present.

In your direct experience, can NOW ever not be NOW?

No!

So, I am just throwing out more questions, and I can see that you are seeing clearly for yourself.

Is it true that you are unloveable?

No

Is there any 'one' that can be judged to be either lovable or unloveable?

No

Are you in control of your actions?

No

Are other people in control of their actions?

No

Are there even independent, separate, others who can be in control, or not, of their actions?

No!

I will keep sharing!

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

Lovely, and more material to look at from this lot!

I do have thoughts about others incompetence, but how hard I am on them depends on the person and what mood I'm in! I think generally I am a lot harder on myself.

Just watch this trait, try and see it in action even if the thought is unsaid you will know it is there by some kind of inner tensing at what you are seeing (politicians talking on the news) anything at all. Go to the reaction and work backwards using the Fetter approach: "They don't say things I want to hear" and again try and feel the primary sensation and the gap which the reaction was trying to cover up. It could be fear, it could be sadness.... "I don't want to hear that!"

Who or what is this "I" that wants control?

To minimise any negative reactions from other people, but that clearly isn't possible!

Feel that "I" movement at work when you experience someone 'blowing off steam" it is frightening for a little one and this has stayed in your system until now.... Now you can help your system to hold the space for the primary movement that is fear towards peoples' negative reactions and allow them the space to "blow off steam". Do you see how it works as a kind of energy flow, we could even call it a dance!

What in my direct experience right here is this thought pointing to?
A feeling that other people can be controlled!

A thought is always pointing to something being interpreted from the field of experience - i.e. mostly body sensations responding to sensory input.
Can a feeling give up any information about controlling or not controlling other people?
What information can you get from a feeling other than it is a body sensation that doesn't speak?
It is only thought that makes interpretations.
"I feel I must control other people"
Can you see that this is a mixing up of thought being overlaid on body sensing without clarity for what is actually going on in direct experience.
This is the confusion of body language that we have learned from our conditioning and have been living with in conventional reality!

It is not that you can never get verbal info from body sensing, but it will always be related to some choice in the present moment. Instinct or Intuition or a kind of kinesthetic awareness that is in harmony with mental processing because it feels right (or wrong) NOW! and without any interference by personal identification or "I" input.
Does this relate in any way?

Does any particular event in the past come to mind of "out of control" ?

Yes, people arguing and being angry at each other.

Allow yourself to drop into the feelings you experienced in those situations. The sensations prior to the 'gap' after which some kind of reacting takes place.

Does any particular event in the future come to mind of "out of control"?

Things being messy, and unorderly.

Allow yourself to drop into the yucky feelings of entering a room that is messy and unorderly...... If it happens at home, sit in that room, the kitchen when things haven't been cleared up for example, and take delight at the sensations that creates in the body. You might be surprised that they can actually be enjoyable!!

Can you see that thoughts/memories about the past/future can only happen NOW?

Yes we can only be in the present.

Can "we" be separated out of the one flowing movement of direct experience, any more than "I" , "me", "you" or "they"?

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Thank you! Yes a lot to work with here.

Just watch this trait, try and see it in action even if the thought is unsaid you will know it is there by some kind of inner tensing at what you are seeing (politicians talking on the news) anything at all. Go to the reaction and work backwards using the Fetter approach: "They don't say things I want to hear" and again try and feel the primary sensation and the gap which the reaction was trying to cover up. It could be fear, it could be sadness.... "I don't want to hear that!"

Yes, I will keep an eye out for feelings of incompetence.

Feel that "I" movement at work when you experience someone 'blowing off steam" it is frightening for a little one and this has stayed in your system until now.... Now you can help your system to hold the space for the primary movement that is fear towards peoples' negative reactions and allow them the space to "blow off steam". Do you see how it works as a kind of energy flow, we could even call it a dance!

Yes I can see that. Something to work on!

Can a feeling give up any information about controlling or not controlling other people?

No

What information can you get from a feeling other than it is a body sensation that doesn't speak?

You can't get any information from a feeling, unless it is a body sensation thats pointing to something that needs attention.

It is only thought that makes interpretations.
"I feel I must control other people"
Can you see that this is a mixing up of thought being overlaid on body sensing without clarity for what is actually going on in direct experience.

Yes a feeling like that isn't a clear body sensation it is a thought.

It is not that you can never get verbal info from body sensing, but it will always be related to some choice in the present moment. Instinct or Intuition or a kind of kinesthetic awareness that is in harmony with mental processing because it feels right (or wrong) NOW! and without any interference by personal identification or "I" input.
Does this relate in any way?

I'm not so sure about this, can you clarify? Do you mean a body sensation that is pointing to something that needs attention?

Allow yourself to drop into the yucky feelings of entering a room that is messy and unorderly...... If it happens at home, sit in that room, the kitchen when things haven't been cleared up for example, and take delight at the sensations that creates in the body. You might be surprised that they can actually be enjoyable!!

I look forward to trying this tomorrow, I might be able to be with the sensations but not sure about them being enjoyable!

Can "we" be separated out of the one flowing movement of direct experience, any more than "I" , "me", "you" or "they"?

No, misuse of words! There is just the present moment "you" or "me" can't be separate from it.

Have a great evening,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

It is not that you can never get verbal info from body sensing, but it will always be related to some choice in the present moment. Instinct or Intuition or a kind of kinesthetic awareness that is in harmony with mental processing because it feels right (or wrong) NOW! and without any interference by personal identification or "I" input.
Does this relate in any way?

I'm not so sure about this, can you clarify? Do you mean a body sensation that is pointing to something that needs attention?

It is more the intuitive "YES" or feeling of expansion and openness to something that feels right or in alignment. You already mentioned it earlier when you saw clearly that there is no separate self in control, only patterns playing out. If there is a pointing to something that needs attention there will be a movement of contraction, which is a kind of "NO".

I might be able to be with the sensations but not sure about them being enjoyable!

You will get there in time!

You too, have a great evening,
Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

The house was strangely tidy this morning so I haven't been able to have a go at this yet but I will keep you posted. A couple of things happened yesterday. After my feelings of empathy towards my mum my sister popped round. We ended up having a conversation about something I have been putting off for ages because of all the stories I had built around it. In the end I could easily see her point of view and wondered why I put it off for so long.

I then went to pick my daughter up from school and encountered a very inconsiderate driver. They made me reverse a very long way backwards by driving quickly towards me, even though he could easily have just gone back a little way to let me go past. I was instantly filled with irritation and then anger. I did the self inquiry after...he doesn't wait to let me past. I couldn't find the button and kind of felt a bit silly for over reacting.

I have also had a conversation with my husband about going through this process. I did the apple exercise with him to explain the initial part of the process of how we label everything and he thought it was a bit of an elaborate way of illustrating it but did see why it might be good for someone who over thinks things. Anyway I am glad I shared it with him and realise he doesn't really understand the full idea behind it!

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

Thanks so much for this wonderful update, it is really great to see the shift in action when the self 'illusion' is seen through as more and more layers of what was identified with, 'as pertaining to a 'me' ' come up to be seen and released.

I am wondering if you would be ready to do the checking in questions regarding the first fetter (seeing through the self illusion) which is the main focus of LU. As I said before, it doesn't mean an end to our conversation, we can continue looking and inquiring together as long as you feel like it. Once the questions are answered, I will of course check to see if I can see if there is anything that requires more clarity, and then will invite other guides to take a look and do the same. And, perhaps have their own questions to ask, which is nothing but helpful.

So do let me know if you feel ready, and if there is a hesitation, no worries, we will just carry on as long as you like.

Have a great day, I hope it doesn't get too hot for you!

Rowena