I know it but don’t yet see it.

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for being open about the goal. So, there is a stream of thought regarding a goal and an expectation.

Is there any difference—in terms of substance, energy, or the way they appear—between the thought of a banana and the thought of the goal?

No, a thought is a thought. They appear/feel the same.

Or to put it another way: Can a mere thought (“Something ought to happen there”) ever achieve the goal it describes?

Here I’m unsure of the answer. A thought itself can’t do anything, if that’s what you mean.

As far as the action the thought wants to drive, though, is “you need to be in the correct state/frame of mind/etc for ‘something’ to happen”, that could potentially help if I’m not in the correct state of mind etc …

… I don’t know what it feels like to drop the feeling/thought clump of “I”, so I don’t have a good intuitive sense of whether that questioning of whether my mind state is “proper” is helpful.

I logically understand it’s probably not helpful… but the feeling is still there that says “a certain condition is required to be experientially convinced of this at least tor the first time”.

My true awake state without being fooled by thoughts of “self” can’t be conditioned on anything of course, or it’d just be another transient phenomenon… but the ability to experientially be un-fooled for the first time still “feels” to me like it requires some trick or action.

Warm Regards,
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

I understand where you’re coming from.

...but the feeling is still there, saying: "A specific condition is required to be convinced, at least the first time."

...but the ability to free myself from this illusion for the first time still feels to me as if it would require a trick or a specific action.

When we say "It feels as if...", we usually aren't describing a feeling at all. A sentence like "It feels as if a trick is necessary" is a pure thought—a logical conclusion disguised as a feeling.

A genuine feeling, on the other hand, has no words. It consists purely of physical bodily sensations: pressure in the chest, tightness in the throat, warmth in the belly, or a pulling sensation in the shoulders.

The next time that impulse arises during your inquiry—the one claiming, "I need a condition or a trick first in order to be convinced"—pause for a moment.

Direct your attention straight into your body. Sense what is there right now, purely on a physical level.
Your task as an observer:
Where exactly in the body is this "feeling that something is missing" located? Is it tightness in the chest? Pressure behind the eyes? A sinking feeling in the stomach?

Examine this pure bodily sensation (the pressure, the tightness) very closely:
Does this physical sensation in the body know anything about a "trick," a "condition," or an "insight"?
Or is there simply a physical sensation to which the mind subsequently attaches the story "I’m not ready yet"?

Next time, describe to me—in a purely matter-of-fact way—what raw physical sensations arise in the body when that "It feels as if..." thought kicks in.

Or to put it another way: Can a mere thought (“Something ought to happen there”) ever achieve the goal it describes?
I am not sure of the answer here. A thought in itself cannot bring anything about—if that is what you mean.

If the thought says, “A condition still needs to be met”—does this “condition” exist as a real barrier in space, or is the condition itself, at that moment, made of nothing but “thought-stuff”?

And here is the most important point: throughout this inquiry, we are not trying to generate a new state at all. We are not creating a new experience here. We are simply looking—quite soberly—at how things are right now, and how they have always been. There is nothing to achieve, only an existing reality to notice.

Best regards,
Daniel
[

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

Some questions and comments:

The next time that impulse arises during your inquiry—the one claiming, "I need a condition or a trick first in order to be convinced"—pause for a moment.

Direct your attention straight into your body. Sense what is there right now, purely on a physical level.
Your task as an observer:
Where exactly in the body is this "feeling that something is missing" located? Is it tightness in the chest? Pressure behind the eyes? A sinking feeling in the stomach?

Examine this pure bodily sensation (the pressure, the tightness) very closely:
Does this physical sensation in the body know anything about a "trick," a "condition," or an "insight"?
Or is there simply a physical sensation to which the mind subsequently attaches the story "I’m not ready yet"?

Ok I’ll look for the feeling associated with this thought (which may be prior to the thought, as you say).

If the thought says, “A condition still needs to be met”—does this “condition” exist as a real barrier in space, or is the condition itself, at that moment, made of nothing but “thought-stuff”?

No there is no real barrier in space… any condition blocking me from seeing my true nature is indeed “just” made of “thought stuff”.

I put “just” in quotes because it’s not “mere” thoughts but a sticky thought knot that has everyone deluded.

If that weren’t the case, everyone would be walking around experiencing their true nature without the need for guidance or pointing exercises to help them (and me) drop the concepts and see reality in some conclusive way for what it is (and what it is not).

And here is the most important point: throughout this inquiry, we are not trying to generate a new state at all. We are not creating a new experience here. We are simply looking—quite soberly—at how things are right now, and how they have always been. There is nothing to achieve, only an existing reality to notice.

Understood… but again, some non-thing “thing” is in the way of noticing it, or everyone would be noticing it all the time.

Dropping that “thing” (I suppose thoughts of “I” that we take to be a real solid thing called “I”) requires (for most people anyway, it seems) some sort of guidance… if not guidance to a new state, then to an existing state which they either don’t notice or, more likely, don’t notice the profundity of even though they *do always* see it right in front of their (my) face.

Anyway, I’ll look for the feeling that prompts this sort of thought cascade next time I take a look… for instance looking at my hand flipping, or looking at other objects for the difference between the experience of the object itself and the thoughts/concepts/definitions about the object.

Many Thanks Again!!

Warm Regards,
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

unser Verstand nimmt Gedanken gerne für bahre Münze. :)
Lass uns Gedanken in drei präzise Kategorien unterteilen:

Gedanken für direkt erfahrbare Dinge: Das sind Wörter für etwas, das wir unmittelbar mit den Sinnen wahrnehmen können: Hand, Schlüssel, Wind, ein Geräusch. Wenn du die Augen öffnest, ist die Hand einfach da. Das Objekt existiert unabhängig vom Wort. Kategorie 1

Gedanken für zusammengesetzte Konstrukte: Das sind Wörter für Dinge, die wir nicht als ein einziges Objekt wahrnehmen können, deren einzelne Teile aber real erfahrbar sind: Stadt, Schule. Du kannst keine „Stadt“ anfassen – aber du kannst Häuser, Straßen und Menschen anfassen. Das Wort ist ein praktisches gedankliches Konstrukt für eine Gruppe realer Dinge. Kategorie 2

Gedanken für reine Fantasiegebilde: Das sind Wörter für Dinge, die wir weder direkt noch in ihren Einzelteilen jemals sinnlich wahrnehmen können: Weihnachtsmann, Zahnfee. Kategorie 3

Wir können die Liste der reinen Fantasiegebilde (Kategorie 3) ganz leicht erweitern – und zwar mit Beispielen, die du selbst unbewusst benutzt: Der verstrickte Gedankenknoten...

Mach heute über den Tag verteilt folgendes Experiment. Jedes Mal, wenn du merkst, dass dein Verstand schwer wird oder ins Grübeln gerät, stoppe kurz und ordne die Situation radikal in die drei Kategorien ein:

Kategorie 1 & 2 (Reale Welt): Was nimmst du jetzt gerade physisch mit den Sinnen wahr? (z. B. der feste Boden unter den Füßen, das Tippen auf der Tastatur, das Trinken eines Kaffees).

Kategorie 3 (Fantasie-Welt): Welche Geschichte erzählt dein Verstand jetzt gerade darüber? (z. B. „Ich bin blockiert“, „Da ist ein verstrickter Gedankenknoten“, „Ich schaffe das nicht“).

Die Kernfrage für den Tag:
Kannst du die Begriffe aus Kategorie 3 irgendwo im Raum oder im Körper anfassen, sehen oder riechen wie die Dinge aus Kategorie 1 und 2? Oder existieren sie ausnahmslos als flüchtige Wörter in deinem Kopf?

Mach das heute ein paar Mal ganz nüchtern. Keine Analyse, nur reines Sortieren.


Beste Grüße
Daniel

[Daniel777]

in English :)

Hi Josh,

Our mind tends to take thoughts at face value. :)
Let’s break thoughts down into three precise categories:

Thoughts referring to directly perceivable things: These are words for things we can perceive immediately with our senses—a hand, a key, the wind, a sound. When you open your eyes, the hand is simply there. The object exists independently of the word. Category 1

Thoughts referring to composite constructs: These are words for things we cannot perceive as a single object, yet whose individual parts can be experienced in reality—a city, a school. You cannot touch a "city," but you can touch houses, streets, and people. The word is a practical mental construct for a group of real things. Category 2

Thoughts referring to pure figments of the imagination: These are words for things we can never perceive with our senses, neither directly nor through their individual parts—Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy. Category 3

We can easily expand the list of pure figments of the imagination (Category 3) with examples you use yourself without realizing it: that tangled knot of thoughts...

Try the following experiment throughout the day today. Whenever you notice your mind becoming heavy or getting caught up in rumination, pause briefly and radically sort the situation into these three categories:

Category 1 & 2 (Real World): What are you physically perceiving with your senses right now? (e.g., the solid ground beneath your feet, typing on the keyboard, drinking coffee).

Category 3 (Fantasy World): What story is your mind telling about this right now? (e.g., "I’m blocked," "There’s a tangled knot of thoughts," "I can’t do this"). The key question for the day:
Can you touch, see, or smell the terms from Category 3—somewhere in the room or in your body—like the things in Categories 1 and 2? Or do they exist solely as fleeting words in your mind?

Do this a few times today, quite matter-of-factly. No analysis, just pure sorting.


Best regards,
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for translating :-). A few phrases only is the extent of my German. (“My” German).

As for the exercise, my day has only started but I wanted to post my experience so far.

Category 1:
Coffee (tasted)
Coffee mug (felt)
Phone case (felt)
Chair (felt)
Warm feeling somewhere in chest (felt)

Category 2:
None arose in my experience (yet) today.

Category 3 (constructs/concepts):
“Bitterness”… word attached to taste of coffee.
“Smooth porcelain”… words attached to feel of coffee mug.
“Rubbery”… word attached to feel of phone case.
“Solid/hard”… words attached to feel of chair.
“Pride”… word attached to warm feeling in chest, preceding the thought that “I think I’ve understood this assignment correctly.” I also felt this warm feeling and later thoughts of “pride” at being “holier than thou” when I was watching a news report that usually would make me feel angry at the people involved, but today just made me laugh at the people involved.

I had originally listed the items in category one with their descriptors (bitter, smooth, etc), but recognized that those are descriptive concepts attached after the fact.

Many Thanks!
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

Great—keep going and let me know how the day felt. Was it complicated? More relaxed? Tense? Whats shifting right now?

Best Regards
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

I’m still working with this exercise.

Just a point of clarification… are you intending that I should still be choosing an object and staring it for 30 seconds or so, and watching for the difference between what I experience as category 1 (the object) and what I experience as category 3 (all the names and concepts that arise in the mind pertaining to it)?

Or just to make this assessment of any object that comes into my field of vision, when and as often as I remember to look at it this way?

So far I can’t say that I’ve experienced any kind of shift…

I have found that I’ve noticed features of some objects that I hadn’t noticed before… a subtle ring of white light reflecting off of the lip of a black mug, for example. The words were of course applied after the fact, but the observation of that detail preceded them.

Thanks!
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hey Josh,

Yes, take your time and expect nothing. Just observe with curiosity. Let's take it a step further. Use the quiet time in the day.

If you now look at an object: Where exactly in direct experience lies the boundary between the seer, the seeing, and the seen?

Into which categories do three aspects and the boundary between them belong? Are they experienced as separate things (Category 1) or does the separation exist solely as an idea in your mind (Category 3)?

Kind Regards
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

I’m still working through this, but quick update:

I can’t say that I feel any change in feeling overall while paying attention to this. Perhaps my thoughts about work and such are reduced when I’m investigating an object, so that’s nice.

In terms of separation between the observer, observing, and observed, I haven’t noticed any dissolution of the idea of their separation.

I’ve noticed a couple of interesting things though… for example I was driving and heard a motorcycle come from behind me, pass next to me, and then pull ahead of me… but I realized all of that was comprised of thoughts. All there really was in firsthand experience was a sound that wasn’t there, then was there, then became louder, and then a motorcycle appeared in my peripheral vision and remained in my forward vision for a time. The image of it driving up behind me and then passing was totally in the thought realm, as I couldn’t have possibly “seen” it behind me in real experience.

Anyway, that’s it for now.

I’ll look some more and write more later.

Thanks!
Josh

[Daniel777]

Good morning, Josh.
It’s gradually sinking in how the mechanisms actually work. You can also carry out this exploration using all other sensory impressions—smell, hearing, touch (haptics)... Have fun and a wonderful day.

Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

I’ve been categorizing experiences as a way to inspect them, as you suggested.

I went for a long walk outside today, there were many objects to look at and listen to. Trees swaying and rustling, birds flying and chirping, a nearby highway humming.

I still experienced the sense/thought of being behind the eyes when sight, and between the ears when hearing.

I’m trying to look at the bodily sensation that comes up when I inspect that sense.

For me it seems to be a tension in the upper chest/lower neck area, centered near what I suppose would be called the “jugular notch”. I notice a corresponding tension whereby my tongue presses against the top of my mouth and my jaw is tense. Not like clenched teeth, but just muscle tension in the jaw muscles. That’s the best picture I can paint of my experience.

I don’t know if that’s the tension of seeking something or the tension associated with a frustration at not finding it (maybe they’re the same thing).

That was my experience this afternoon. It was nice and peaceful to be outside.

One question… a person came from ahead of me and passed me going the other way. I imagined them continuing to walk on behind me, though of course that was an image not an experience. Would you put this in the category 2 like a city (something real, but that one can’t “look at” directly), or in category 3 (something that totally exists only as an image in the mind). I was putting it in category 2. I know this exercise isn’t about the concept of the categories but about at focusing attention on direct experience… but I can’t help but ask. 😊🙏

Thanks!
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

Thanks for the detailed report. I enjoy reading it. You are doing this with such incredible precision. Keep looking calmly at that physical tension!
No straining. It is only about what is actually there right now, in this moment. Without any effort at all.

A question… Someone approached from the front and walked past me. I imagined them continuing on behind me, even though that was, of course, just a mental image and not an actual experience. Would you classify that under Category 2, like a city (something real that you cannot see directly), or under Category 3 (something that exists only as a mental image)? I would place it in Category 2. I know this exercise isn't about the concept of categories, but rather about focusing attention on direct experiences… but I just have to ask. 😊🙏

The man physically walking along behind you is indeed real (Category 2, like the city). But the image of him in your mind—the mental picture of him walking there—consists 100% of thought-stuff at that moment. That image is Category 3. See the pattern? Just like with the motorcycle! Isn´t it?

I still had the feeling of being behind the eyes when seeing, and between the ears when
hearing. I am trying to observe the physical sensation that arises during this.

See if the process of seeing and hearing—which is undeniably present—involves a seer or a hearer.

Close your eyes, feel that tension in your jaw and the hollow of your throat, and then point your index finger exactly to where you locate this "sense of self."

Hold your finger there and, with your eyes open, examine the situation very precisely:

Why did your finger land exactly there? Does your finger move there because a physical fact (Category 1) exists at that spot in your throat—something capable of hearing or seeing? Or did your finger move there because your mind created a mental image (Category 3) of a "self behind the eyes" supposedly located there?

What is your finger really pointing at? Be completely honest: Is your fingertip pointing at the seer and hearer—or is it simply pointing at a bodily sensation that is habitually mistaken for the "self"?

Kind Regards
Daniel

[Shoji]

Hi Daniel,

No straining. It is only about what is actually there right now, in this moment. Without any effort at all.

See if the process of seeing and hearing—which is undeniably present—involves a seer or a hearer.

Close your eyes, feel that tension in your jaw and the hollow of your throat, and then point your index finger exactly to where you locate this "sense of self."

Hold your finger there and, with your eyes open, examine the situation very precisely:

Today I feel it slightly higher but basically in the same place. Pointing to it, the feeling of a being a self when I think about it is sort of at the base of my skull, so from the front of my head my finger is essentially pointing at my mouth when I open my eyes.

Why did your finger land exactly there? Does your finger move there because a physical fact (Category 1) exists at that spot in your throat—something capable of hearing or seeing? Or did your finger move there because your mind created a mental image (Category 3) of a "self behind the eyes" supposedly located there?

No, there’s nothing there that I can see at all. I only see my tip of the finger. My finger is pointing at nothing, as far as first person experience is concerned. Nothing I can see. In fact the idea of it “pointing” is just a concept/thought as well. I simply see the tip of a “finger” (the name finger is also a concept.).

What is your finger really pointing at? Be completely honest: Is your fingertip pointing at the seer and hearer—or is it simply pointing at a bodily sensation that is habitually mistaken for the "self"?

There are layers of lies/abstractions (as far as first person experience is concerned) surrounding what my finger is pointing at.

Of course the concept of the “self” is the first thing the mind comes up with because that’s what I was thinking about and associating with the feeling in my head/jaw/neck while doing the exercise.

Then there is a realization that that is just a thought (as is the thought that it’s just a thought)…

… but then the “truth” arises that I’m pointing at a pile of flesh and neurons that don’t contain a solid/localized “thinker” comes up, but that’s also a thought, springing up from nowhere...

…Again, in actual first person experience there’s no “pointing” (a level 3 concept) nor is there flesh/neurons to be pointing at (a level 2 concept) nor is there “nothing” (a level 3 concept)…

…There’s just the sight of a fingertip.

I can’t say any “shift” accompanies this exercise, but it certainly is a stark realization when peeled down to the core.

Warm Regards
Josh

[Daniel777]

Hi Josh,

you dissected that in your report like a surgeon. Let’s really let that wonderful sense of sobering clarity sink in, and pick up right where you are now:

.Then again, in the actual experience of the "I," there is no "pointing" (a Level 3 concept), nor is there flesh or neurons to point to (a Level 2 concept), nor is there "nothing" (a Level 3 concept)…

…There is only the sight of a fingertip..

You have wonderfully seen through how the mind immediately tries to package what is experienced back into stories: first comes the concept of "I," then the concept of "brain, flesh, and neurons" (Category 2), then the concept of "it’s just a thought" (Category 3). You have realized: every time the mind tries to explain what is there, it merely constructs the next abstraction.

.“I cannot claim that this exercise brings about a change...”

After all, there never was a "self" there that would now need to be erased. One simply sees the fact that there never was one. The relief lies not in the world changing, but in the fact that the struggle to protect or find an imagined self can cease.

When I point to it, the sense of self is located—if I think about it—roughly at the back of my head. Viewed from the front of my head, then, my finger is essentially pointing at my mouth when I open my eyes.

...into this "sense of self." If you strip away all thoughts and labels: Is what you feel there really an "I"—or is it simply the raw, pulsating aliveness of your body?

Could it be that this feeling is merely the tangible fact that life and perception are taking place? Why should this pure aliveness in the mouth or the back of the head be a "self"?

If this aliveness has an “owner” right now—what does he smell like, what color is he, and what does he feel like when you touch him directly?
The question might sound odd, but I really mean it seriously.

Let the answer come solely from raw sensory experience.

Kind Regards
Daniel