Guidance greatly appreciated

[GoldenBoy]

Hi Elad,

Apologies that I missed yesterday. I am back at home and will try to get outside today!

[GoldenBoy]

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you
and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

Is there anything which is not just happening?

There isn’t a boundary that i can detect through direcr eexperience. The attention might land on a sensation on my skin. But in direct experience there is just sensation and the idea of the skin.

There is nothing outside of or separate from the whole.

And there is nothing that is not just unfolding.

[Elad]

How does it feel to see this?

Don't answer from memory or your idea of how things are now. Make sure to let it in directly and freshly, then answer.

[GoldenBoy]

How does it feel to see this?

Don't answer from memory or your idea of how things are now. Make sure to let it in directly and freshly, then answer.

A sense of spaciousness in the body, as well as grounded/weighted solidity. Like calm stillness.

[Elad]

Beautiful 🤍

What reactions come to this sentence:

The gateless gate has been crossed - by no-one. The reality of no separate self is clear and has always been so, with no one to own it or hold on to it.

[GoldenBoy]

The gateless gate has been crossed - by no-one. The reality of no separate self is clear and has always been so, with no one to own it or hold on to it.

The thought arises that no crossing is possible. Although the reality of no separate self feels clear.

[Elad]

The gateless gate has been crossed - by no-one. The reality of no separate self is clear and has always been so, with no one to own it or hold on to it.

The thought arises that no crossing is possible. Although the reality of no separate self feels clear.

Does it make a difference? How does it feel?


I am wondering if it would be appropriate at this point to give you the final check-point questions of the LU process. Or if it feels like there are doubts or reservations or resistance that needs to be looked at before?

[GoldenBoy]

Does it make a difference? How does it feel?

Deeply peaceful, although habitual self-referential thoughts continue to arise.

I don’t think there is specific resistance. Just conditioned thought processes fabricating a self that could “get it” or “not get it”.

[Elad]

Does it make a difference? How does it feel?

Deeply peaceful, although habitual self-referential thoughts continue to arise.

I don’t think there is specific resistance. Just conditioned thought processes fabricating a self that could “get it” or “not get it”.

Lovely.


Please answer all of the following questions in one message and make sure that you copy each question before the answer so it is easy to connect Q's & A's. Look freshly at each one and answer as simple and clear as possible from direct experience. Be 100% true to what is directly experienced. Once you have answered them we will talk about how to continue. Discovery and integration in the conventional life continues forever, and we will talk about how to move in the most supportive way with that.




1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.



3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue?



4) What was the moment(s) where clarity clicked; describe what happened.



5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control (separately).



6) What makes things happen? How does it work?



7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

[Elad]

Forgot the last question, please answer it with the others.

8) Anything to add?

[GoldenBoy]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate self - not in the body, or in the thoughts or controlling things. This has never existed.

But there is an illusion of self.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of self is habitual thoughts which refer to one another or to sensations in the body, giving the impression of a continuous separate entity. It starts often from sensory input interpreted in a certain way - i.e. Thoughts reacting to that input.

For example, tension in the facial muscles contributing to ‘what is feels like to be me’. This feels the same as the sensory inputs that help me identify that i am not alseep dreaming.

These thoughts then add up to support a story of ‘me’.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue?

This feels like a relief because there is no ‘me’ who could be inadequate or make the wrong decisions. Because no decisions are being made by a self. This feels like a calm still openness and sometimes like experience is just gently unfolding with nobody here. Like being invisible.

4) What was the moment(s) where clarity clicked; describe what happened.

One was noticing that actions simply initiate without “me” initiating them. The thing is happening slightly before i know it is happening.

Another moment was experiencing “self” as a column of awareness in my chest/throat/head. But then experimenting with shifting attention to my fingertips far away from that ‘centre’ and watching the feeling of awareness be disrupted.

Another was paying attention to the focus of experiencing unfolding and watching it move around independently without being steered by a ‘me’ and noticing the fluidity of that movement.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control (separately).

Decision one possibility happening rather than another or others.

Intention is a thought about what might happen.

Free will doesn’t exist - nothing can be controlled in present experience, although conditions might support specific possibilities hapoening.

Choice is like a decision - it’s one option unfolding and then perhaps thoughts arising about that unfolding.

Control is an illusion - it is not possible to be in control in the present moment.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

There are options and then one option happens based on causes and conditions. Processes might interact and act as causes and conditions for one another.

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

In the present moment it isn’t really possible to be responsible because actions happen or don’t happen.

For example - if i don’t turn off my phone in the theatre and my phone rings, there isn’t a me that could initiate the action of turning off the phone.

Even if thoughts arise and act as conditions and causes for actions, there is no thought owner so nobody to be responsible.

For example - if i think about a friend’s birthday and then buy a card, it was just an independently arising thought and not a ‘me initiated’ process.

I don’t know how to reconcile this with the expectations of conventional reality where responsibility is attributed to a person with a presumed self. The world acts as if there is a self who can deliberately initiate actions and decisions.

8) Anything to add?

Changing the points of reference - e.g. By holding the face differently seems to loosen the habitual sense of ‘me-ness’

[Elad]

Hi Amo, this is great.

I don’t know how to reconcile this with the expectations of conventional reality where responsibility is attributed to a person with a presumed self. The world acts as if there is a self who can deliberately initiate actions and decisions.

For me it reconciles this way: While there is no true separate self ultimately responsible, there is still in the conventional "relative" sense such things as skills, intentions, personality patterns etc etc. So for example we can "take responsibility for reading each others messages" but a toddler could not. Ultimately there is no we to take that responsibility but conventionally the difference exists and makes a pragmatic difference. So do personality qualities such as empathy and conscientiousness. A psychopath could wake up and be someone we would not want to trust with for example to take care of our child. Another person displays behaviors of care and responsiblity - we will let our child go to their kindergarden. So: No real separate self doing any of it, but on the conventional level, different "charachters" can be conventionally trusted with different kind of things. And skills and good human qualities can still be cultivated, even without anybody doing it... Excercise, good quality psychotherapy and loving kindness meditation practice - for example - can be useful also without any real separate self that owns any of it. Ken Wilber spoke of this as the difference between waking up and growing up. While they are related, they are certainly not the same. It also connects to the Buddhist expressions of "absolute truth" (no one separate in control and doing) and "relative truth": a person/character can be more or less mature and kind, and these qualities can evolve...


There is a quote I like, that holds this seeming paradox, the two different levels of description and experience:


"Although my view is higher than the sky, my attention to the law of cause and effect is as fine as barley flour."

- Padmasambhava


How does this land with you?