Looking for a guide

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie,
Yes. This is very clear.

Months aren’t here. Only here is here. Only now is here.

Exactly.
The story may be useful. The icon may be useful. But it is not this.

The truth or lack of truth isn’t even the point.

Loved that! That’s important. The mind keeps wanting to argue “Is the story true or not?”, but the inquiry is simpler - Is it here?

The two-month sufferer is nowhere to be found.

Yes. That doesn’t erase practical history. It doesn’t deny medicine, conversations, decisions, support, or care. It simply shows that the imagined continuous sufferer is a thought-structure, not an entity.

A TON of suffering is found in time.

Exactly. Psychological time is where the self rebuilds itself. Without it, what remains?
This sensation. This thought. This breath. This sound.
Manageable? Maybe.
Pleasant? Maybe not.
But not a life sentence.
So keep looking very simply… When suffering appears, ask:
Is this suffering happening now?
Or is thought adding before/after, cause/effect, continuity, and ownership?
Without the timeline, what is actually here?
Not to make it disappear. Just to see what is real and what is added. That’s enough.

Would you like to give the checkpoint questions another go?
I really enjoy our conversation and that shouldn’t mean the end of it. We can continue talking about what shows up :)

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Sorry for the delay. Been a loooong week. One of my students died, which really sucked, and came hot on the heals of two near-suicides and my nerves are a bit fried and been feeling pretty distracted.

Did you know the architects of Apartheid visited Canada in the 40s to see how we did our Apartheid (called the Indian Act). Canada inspired South Africa and provided a lot of bureaucratic infrastructure to support South Africa in moving forward with racial segregation. And while Canadians will readily condemn South Africa Apartheid, the average person has very little to say on the subject of the Indian Act, which is ongoing. I work on a reserve and the issues caused by ongoing racial subjugation are incredibly significant. Anyways, that was a sidenote.

The mind keeps wanting to argue “Is the story true or not?”, but the inquiry is simpler - Is it here?

Yeah. I can see this clearly.

It’s almost like the mind’s priorities change. From a fixation with “do they think that I think X” to the DE of “flutters in the belly. Anxiety. Fading.”

Psychological time is where the self rebuilds itself. Without it, what remains?

This continues to get clearer and clearer. And nothing remains.

I also love the way you say this. Our psychology so clearly exists in time. Our sense of accomplishment / failure, the things we want and pursue, the things that we regret and feel shame over, thighs that we’re afraid of happening - these are all time based and require a self to exist in order to hold the feelings, or at least to imagine that it holds the feelings.

And there’s that funny feeling that comes online sometimes too - when you’re reminded of something that isn’t psychologically held in the sense of self, and we say something like “I was a different person then.” It’s just the mind rejecting things that don’t fit its own sense of continuity.

Is this suffering happening now?
Or is thought adding before/after, cause/effect, continuity, and ownership?
Without the timeline, what is actually here?

The suffering that is happening in this moment is pretty minor. It’s manageable. Sometimes there is sadness, for my student, for her family, whom I know well. But it is sensations and thoughts. And then sometimes, there are other experiences and the sadness is gone. It’s been clear that the sadness is not continuous; it comes and goes.

Would you like to give the checkpoint questions another go?

Yeah, definitely. I understand it and can clearly see what you’re pointing to.

To be honest, I saw it before too, but was shocked (mad?) that… that’s it. Lol. Had to work through that before I was able to admit that yes, it’s here, it’s seen, it is.

I’m curious what comes next… I’ve heard teachers talk about a constant unwinding, and I can see how that is happening, slowly under the surface.

How long ago did you break the first fetter, and what came next for you? (You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to - I’m just nosy). Did it continue to just unwind or was there deliberate practice?

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

I have something happening this weekend. I'll reply on Monday. I'm sorry about the delay

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie,
I’m really sorry to hear about your student. That’s a lot. No need to minimize that or rush past it. Sadness comes, tenderness comes, shock comes, exhaustion comes — and, as you saw, none of it is continuous. It appears, moves, disappears, returns. No owner needed.
And yes, what you wrote here is very clear:

The suffering that is happening in this moment is pretty minor. It’s manageable. Sometimes there is sadness, for my student, for her family, whom I know well. But it is sensations and thoughts. And then sometimes, there are other experiences and the sadness is gone. It’s been clear that the sadness is not continuous; it comes and goes.

Exactly. This doesn’t make grief unimportant. It doesn’t make care disappear. It simply shows that the imagined continuous sufferer is not actually found. There is sadness when sadness is here. There is thought when thought is here. There is work, care, response, rest, fatigue. But where is the one who owns the whole timeline?

I saw it before too, but was shocked (mad?) that… that’s it.

Yes. That reaction is very common. The mind expects something grand, conclusive, impressive, something worthy of all the seeking. Then the seeing is almost offensively simple… No self can be found. Thoughts arise. Sensations arise. Life happens. The “me” is added in thought. That’s it.
But the disappointment, anger, “surely there must be more”, those are also just appearances. Weather. They don’t invalidate the seeing.

I’m curious what comes next… I’ve heard teachers talk about a constant unwinding, and I can see how that is happening, slowly under the surface.

Yes, there can be ongoing unwinding. Seeing through the separate self is not the end of all conditioning. It is more like the main knot being seen for what it is. After that, many smaller knots become easier to spot: time, control, responsibility, guilt, shame, fear, relationships, “others,” the body, awareness, and so on. But the mechanism is the same each time… A sensation appears. A thought appears. A story forms. “Mine” gets added. A self seems to exist. Then it’s looked at, and the structure loosens. As for what comes next: nothing special. Life. And when identification shows up, look. Not as a project, not as homework, not as self-improvement. Just simple checking.

How long ago did you break the first fetter, and what came next for you? (You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to - I’m just nosy). Did it continue to just unwind or was there deliberate practice?

You’re not being nosy. :)
For me, after the first clear seeing (8-9y ago), there was definitely no final trumpet sound. I was also mad and disappointed. There was a ton of doubt. But life continued. Doubt was seen as just thoughts about doubt. Thoughts continued. Old conditioning continued. But something fundamental had changed - there was certainty about “no Rali”, and after that, many patterns began showing themselves more clearly. There was both unwinding and deliberate looking. Not deliberate in the sense of “I must fix myself,” but more like curiosity whenever life presented a contraction. Real life became the practice — relationships, irritation, fear, grief, responsibility, control. Each time something got sticky, the same question applied: There is no "Rali", so what is this?
And again and again, what was found was sensation, thought, story, conditioning, but no owner. So yes, there can be “deliberate practice”, but not as a project to improve a self. More like gentle, honest looking when life lights up the next hidden belief. What is really happening?
The unfolding continues. There is no finish line. But the basic illusion doesn’t need to be solved again and again; it’s more that its echoes are seen in more places.

Now yes, let’s give the checkpoint questions another go.
Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

No rush. Let the answers come from looking, not from memory or “right answers.”
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for your kind words on sadness. Similar themes have been rolling around my mind lately, particularly around my husband’s illness. There’s this belief that not worrying and grieving is irresponsible. Not being afraid is irresponsible. And sure there is fear and worry and sadness, but it’s not everything. That’s not the total picture. It feels a bit scary to drop those pieces when they are not serving, and when they’re not part of what’s actually happening.

And also, thanks for sharing your own experience; that very much resonates with mine. I’ve noticed that there’s been a change in my meditation practice, which used to be longer and deeper and it’s now just noticing what’s here. It happens when I walk and when I’m biking, when I’m waiting for something. It has shifted.

There is sadness when sadness is here. There is thought when thought is here. There is work, care, response, rest, fatigue. But where is the one who owns the whole timeline?

Love the way you asked this question. It’s not just “who owns sadness” but “who owns everything”. And there is no owner.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Nope.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It’s self-referential thought, which if we think about it (and that’s a lot of layers of thoughts) is pretty cool. The thought can see that they are popping up and they think about the thoughts appearing and start saying “I thought that” and just like that, the thoughts think that someone is responsible for thinking them. They imagine and believe there is a thinker.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The weight of responsibility feels lessened. I used to scold myself for not paying attention, or for thinking judgemental thoughts. This has faded.

I also see how engrossing the story is, and how thought is like putting on a VR headset. We might be in the same room (DE) as we were before, but the overlay is so total and so engrossing that it bears no resemblance to what is actually here.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

This is hard to say. I think I peeked over the edge fairly early on in our conversations but was unimpressed with what I saw so stopped.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decisions are made before the conscious mind is aware of it. You sent me a video about the finger tapping in the MRI machine, and even doing that at home, I could see that it was the case. A finger would tap before “I” told it to - “my decision” was a thought added after the fact.

If there is a separate “I” the mind needs to believe that it is in charge, and so there’s an elaborate, thought-based weighing of options. But these can be bypassed and the answer the mind will eventually end up on is present in the body already.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention is a thought. Sometimes there’s a tightening sensation.

I have some really unenjoyable work that I have to do nearly every day. I can get it done in an hour if focused, and it can take basically the whole day at other times. I used to set intentions of doing it first thing in the morning, and sometimes it would work, sometimes it wouldn’t. I’ve learned that my intentions are mostly just tension and thought and pressure and frustration. Intention doesn’t actually get anything done. Letting go of that, I do find the work just gets done on its own schedule. I still don’t enjoy it, but I’m not fighting it or changing what is - the energy that is here, the focus that is here, the ability to do something tedious.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

There is a stimulus and a response. The responses are deeply encoded into us, and quite unique to the individual. Obvious examples might be the veteran, returning from war, who goes into a panic when they hear a car backfire, or a person struggling with addiction who is powerless to say no to alcohol when anxiety spikes.

Less obvious might be our own conditioned responses - an impatient colleague triggering memories and feelings of intense shame, and triggering a behavioural pattern that has been there forever that we can’t quite break. We’re not choosing to behave in this way; our conditioning is driving it.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Choice is when situations outside our control line up and create a path for us to walk down.

I recently joined a pop choir, after intending to for the last four years. To get there, a bunch of things had to line up, including my health and energy being solid and trustworthy, me trying out the choir and feeling really comfortable in that environment, my enjoyment of the music they were singing, my musical abilities being a good match for the group, them having space for a new member and inviting me, and their location being pretty convenient for me. So, I joined. In the past, not all of these things were true at the same time, so that’s why I didn’t join in the past.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

A thought.

I go for walks often and “try” to be mindful and in the moment and not get lost in story. This lasts about 40 seconds or so. And then several minutes later, I realize I’ve been lost in thought and I’ll suddenly pop back into the present. I used to think that “I” pulled myself back into the present, but that’s not the case. The mind is wherever it is. The mind pops back to DE when it does. No one did that. No one is controlling the mind.

Would you say that the mind is always in DE? When I look at DE, there’s the sensory stuff (table, fan sound) but there’s the thought DE too. Even getting stuck in a story or lost in thought is a type of DE as well. There’s always just this, but the difference is simply in whether or not “this” is seen, but if no one is seeing and we haven’t gotten anywhere or moved from point A to point B and we had it this whole time… who has realized or seen or woken up? Is going for a walk lost in story no better or worse, or not even fundamentally different from going for a walk and being really present in the senses?

What makes things happen? How does it work?

I go about my day, on my loop which is built by conditions - of my upbringing, what my parents taught, what my system judged best for survival, what my culture told me was important. Values, beliefs, habits arise from this and structures are built to support this.

We don’t just fall into an equilibrium, doing the same things forever. We change, continually, through every person we meet, every new book that we read, and every day adds to our experience and leaves an imprint on us and adds to our conditioning, affecting the way we go about our habitual activities, affecting the chemistry of our brains, affecting the way our beliefs are expressed.

We’re characters. We grow, change, deteriorate, respond. Every interaction affects us, some in small ways, and some much more massively. Opportunities show up in our path, and these opportunities change both ourselves and others.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Doesn’t this assume a self who has responsibility?

It feels more like a collection of values and priorities that will lead to attitudes and behaviours. Responsibility is the wrong word though. That sounds like ownership, or someone deserving credit for something.

But the character of Lanie takes care of many things. They’re not chosen; they’re automatic. Sometimes they are difficult but that doesn’t mean there was another option.

6) Anything to add?

Not at this time…

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie,
These answers are very clear overall. There is a lot of direct seeing here. But first let's address this:

Similar themes have been rolling around my mind lately, particularly around my husband’s illness. There’s this belief that not worrying and grieving is irresponsible. Not being afraid is irresponsible. And sure there is fear and worry and sadness, but it’s not everything. That’s not the total picture. It feels a bit scary to drop those pieces when they are not serving, and when they’re not part of what’s actually happening.

That belief can be very sticky - worry proves love, grief proves responsibility, fear proves preparedness. It can feel almost wrong, or disloyal, to let worry drop when it is not actually here. But look carefully:
Does worry or fear protect him? Does grief need to be present continuously for love to be there? Or do care, love, practical response, tenderness, sadness, fear, laughter, exhaustion, and ordinary life all appear when they appear?
Not worrying in a given moment is not denial. It is simply not worrying in that moment. If fear is here, fear is here - as a sensation and fearful story. If sadness is here, sadness is here. If making tea and biscuits is here, making tea and biscuits is here. No state has to be maintained to prove love. And ultimately no state is what thought says it is :)

Before I pass your answers on, I’d like to ask you to look a little more closely at a few bits of wording — not to make the language “perfect,” but because the wording may be pointing to subtle assumptions worth checking.

The thoughts think that someone is responsible for thinking them. They imagine and believe there is a thinker.

Can you look carefully at that? Do thoughts actually think?
Can a thought imagine or believe anything? Can a thought claim ownership?
Or is there simply a thought appearing… and then perhaps another thought appearing about that thought?
Is there a thought that owns another thought or believes? Is there anything there besides thoughts appearing?
Please describe that again from direct looking.

Decisions are made before the conscious mind is aware of it.

Can a decision itself be found in DE? Can “the conscious mind” be found as a thing? Or "unconscious" for that matter?
Or are these useful labels added afterwards?
When something happens that later gets called a decision, what is actually present? Thoughts? Sensations? Preferences (thought)? Impulses? Actions (sensations)?
A label saying “I chose”? Is a decision any different from a conditioned commentary over what is already happening?

Choice is when situations outside our control line up and create a path for us to walk down.

Can you check that carefully too? Is there actually a “path” in DE? Is there someone who “walks down” it?
When choir-joining happened, was there a path and a walker?
Or did conditions appear, interest appear, invitation appear, movement happen, and then thought labelled it “I chose to join”?

Responsibility assumes a self who has responsibility.

In the absolute sense, yes - no owner, no controller, no one responsible. In ordinary language, "Lanie" still pays bills, goes to work, cares for students, responds to husband, joins choir, rests when tired. Those happen because of conditioning, circumstances, opportunity. Responsibility remains as a useful "icon on your desktop". Ownership drops.

Again, no need for perfect wording. Just look freshly and describe what is actually there.
Everything else looks good for me. I just want these places checked because hidden agents can sneak in very subtly — “thoughts doing something, being the villain”, “decisions being made somewhere,” or “someone walking a path” — even after the personal self has been seen through.
I will pass your answers – the new ones and the previous – to the other guides to check if we’ve missed anything, so please stand by :)
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

I remember when we first started talking and you said it was spring in South Africa, and now, it’s likely the depths of winter. How cold does it get there? Is it rainy? Hard to imagine an African winter.

It’s 28C here right now. That’s pretty warm for June. Where I live, we usually have “June-uary” where we get a month of cold rain before summer starts, but it looks like we skipped it this year.

Does worry or fear protect him? Does grief need to be present continuously for love to be there? Or do care, love, practical response, tenderness, sadness, fear, laughter, exhaustion, and ordinary life all appear when they appear?

It’s all just here. It doesn’t need managing. It’s just doing what it does.

This is where the feeling of letting go and the feeling of seeing this more clearly has come in. There was a feeling that I needed to worry, that worry was an active process that “I” was obligated to participate in, for some unknowable end. Getting stuck in grief or fear is a subtle belief that someone is doing these things, and that there is control here. In reality, grief pops up when it is here. And then it disappears. It’s doing its own thing; I am not “doing” grief.

Do thoughts actually think?
Can a thought imagine or believe anything? Can a thought claim ownership?
Or is there simply a thought appearing… and then perhaps another thought appearing about that thought?
Is there a thought that owns another thought or believes? Is there anything there besides thoughts appearing?

The thoughts themselves don’t believe things; they don’t have that kind of agency. But there are belief thoughts about other thoughts.

There’s no ownership, although one can be connected to another and start a thought chain, or one thought can be a judgement about another thought. But they’re all still just thoughts without agency or ownership.

Can a decision itself be found in DE? Can “the conscious mind” be found as a thing? Or "unconscious" for that matter?
Or are these useful labels added afterwards?
When something happens that later gets called a decision, what is actually present? Thoughts? Sensations? Preferences (thought)? Impulses? Actions (sensations)?
A label saying “I chose”? Is a decision any different from a conditioned commentary over what is already happening?

Decisions are thoughts that say “I decided.” There is conditioned commentary prior to the “I decided” thought. There’s a sensation in the body and the thought of choosing something, and not choosing something else.

Is there actually a “path” in DE? Is there someone who “walks down” it?
When choir-joining happened, was there a path and a walker?
Or did conditions appear, interest appear, invitation appear, movement happen, and then thought labelled it “I chose to join”?

Conditions appear. A path is made later, in thought; it’s a label, or a mental image that is used to explain.

[poppyseed]

Thanks Lanie

I passed your answers to the other guides so please stand by for more questions...
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hey Lanie

There is a question for you:

What reactions, feelings and thoughts, come up when saying out loud the following sentences:
- I don't exist
- it is clear beyond doubt I don't exist
- it is just a belief that I don't exist

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Sorry for the delay! End of the school year in Canada, which means graduations, events and activities. Just starting to catch my breath again. :)

What reactions, feelings and thoughts, come up when saying out loud the following sentences:
- I don't exist
- it is clear beyond doubt I don't exist
- it is just a belief that I don't exist

For “I don’t exist” there isn’t much reaction at all. It’s just quiet.

For “It is clear beyond doubt I don’t exist” (and a few others that I experimented with, like “I have never and will never exist” and phrases like that) I feel some fluttering around the edges. Something is half-heartedly looking for proof it already knows it won’t find. It feels reflexive, and like the looking habit has not quite given up yet. There’s no real energy in it, and it doesn’t come with doubt. It feels like a reflex that will die down in time.

For “it is just a belief that I don’t exist” - that just feels like a thought. It’s neither believed nor disbelieved, and believing that I believe (or not) is unimportant. It just appears and disappears.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
Welcome home!

It appears that the Gateless Gate has been crossed, but as you know there is no Gate, no one to cross it, and no end to the journey. It has been such a pleasure to walk beside you! Your openness and willingness to look were simply awesome and made guiding you a joy. Of course it is not necessarily the end of our conversation.

There have been no more questions for you, which means that you will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

You can also consider being a guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference, which you will be able to access once your name has turned blue, join in any group discussions on FB, or make use of LU online support groups run by senior guides free of charge.

There are three of those, and they meet on Zoom – do contact the organisers for extra info, links and schedules:
1) Vince runs one on Wednesdays and weekends. Contact: vinceschubert@gmail.com
2) Ilona holds a monthly meeting. Contact: admin@ilonaciunaite.com


You can also explore the ten Fetters, which is a structured way of approaching beliefs:
Kevin Shinilac has instructions on his site https://www.simplytheseen.com/

Pernille Damore and Todd Lent https://www.youtube.com/@TheAwakeningCurriculum

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for your message. I guess this changing from green to blue is as close to a certificate of awakening as one can get! :)

And thank you so much for your time and your insight in this process. You’ve been incredible. I always looked forward to your messages, and they never said what I thought that they would say. I am filled with gratitude for your generosity and time and care. Thank you, truly.

I might guide someday, but not now. I have an internal sense that there is more undoing first. More beliefs, more ideas, more seeing, and then potentially guiding in the future.

Thanks for the resources and links. I think the meetup groups with the Awakening Curriculum will be my next stop.

Thank you again, Rali. I will reach out if questions come up. I hope you are well, and wishing you all the best.

Lanie

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

Thank you for your beautiful message. I’m really touched.

It has genuinely been such a pleasure to walk with you through this. Your honesty, humour, clarity, and willingness to keep looking even when the looking was frustrating, ordinary, disappointing, or not what was expected, made this inquiry a joy.

I guess this changing from green to blue is as close to a certificate of awakening as one can get! :)

Yes, green to blue, the very official non-certificate certificate. :)

I think the meetup groups with the Awakening Curriculum will be my next stop.

I’m glad! That feels like a good next step.

I might guide someday, but not now. I have an internal sense that there is more undoing first. More beliefs, more ideas, more seeing, and then potentially guiding in the future.

I agree — there is no rush to guide. Let the unwinding continue in its own way. Life will keep showing what wants to be seen.

I will reach out if questions come up.

Please do reach out anytime, or if something sticky wants looking at together. I’d be very happy to hear from you.

Wishing you and your family gentleness and ease.

Love
Rali