Guidance greatly appreciated

[GoldenBoy]

I would like to spend a bit more time today watching for 'desires'.

Then move on to look at

Also do any of these thoughts about self and preference refer to a truly existing self you can find?

[Elad]

👍

[GoldenBoy]

I have observed desire for things (mostly food) as they have come up today and I don’t notice anything different to other thoughts arising. Possibly desire is a bit more compelling because it is quickly followed by thoughts about why I really ought to have a coffee (for example) and the steps needed to get one.

Also do any of these thoughts about self and preference refer to a truly existing self you can find?

A couple of times this evening I caught myself telling a very in depth story about myself. But once the thoughts had run their course and my attention had moved to another subject I found that I didn’t particularly believe the story I had been telling.

But I think I need to keep looking here.

[GoldenBoy]

If I actually look at the present moment, there is no self in the sense of a personality with preferences. That only comes in in the form of thoughts about “me” and “what I like”. In which case, preferences are just thoughts.

[Elad]

I have observed desire for things (mostly food) as they have come up today and I don’t notice anything different to other thoughts arising. Possibly desire is a bit more compelling because it is quickly followed by thoughts about why I really ought to have a coffee (for example) and the steps needed to get one.

Beautiful observation. And these "selfing" thoughts also come without any real self in charge choosing them, making them...

Also do any of these thoughts about self and preference refer to a truly existing self you can find?

A couple of times this evening I caught myself telling a very in depth story about myself. But once the thoughts had run their course and my attention had moved to another subject I found that I didn’t particularly believe the story I had been telling.

But I think I need to keep looking here.

We tell stories about selves as part of normal funcitoning. A little like the words here/there... There is no true fixed place that is "here". But knowing to orient to here and there is part of functioning in normal life. Same with me/you... So no need (and no wholesome possiblity) to get rid of thoughts and stories about self and others. Just recognizing that all that is also part of one spontaneous mysterious whole, with no fixed and separate ultimate here from there, you from me, etc.

[Elad]

If I actually look at the present moment, there is no self in the sense of a personality with preferences. That only comes in in the form of thoughts about “me” and “what I like”. In which case, preferences are just thoughts.

Exactly...


Is there anything that is controlled or owned by or is "a you" ? Attention? Awareness? Love? Expansion or contraction? Memories?

Is there a seer or just seeing? Is there an experiencer or just experience?

[GoldenBoy]

Is there anything that is controlled or owned by or is "a you" ?

Attention? Awareness?

Attention and awareness feel very similar - and about what is dominant in my experience at any one time. It feels like something that flits around moving from one moment to the next unless I am meditating with a very calm mind. And like it can only really rest on one thing at a time.

If I had to differentiate them, awareness might be about a broader field of experience but functionally one thing dominates at a time.

E.g. sensation on the end of my thumb as I type, then a low burn from an injury in my foot, a laugh from the other side of the room, my forearms resting on the table etc.

I certainly can’t control it in a moment to moment sense, even if I can follow a broader intention to focus on the breath (for example). Perhaps this is attention arising dependent on the condition of my intention-thought about following the breath.

Love?

I experience love somatically/with a contraction in my chest accompanied by thoughts which might include positive qualities of an individual or about my affection for them. This arises and I am not it. I don’t own it, although I claim it through thoughts about it. I don’t control it, although I can take actions that create conditions for it - e.g. looking at a photo of a loved one.

Expansion or contraction?

This is an action and I don’t own, control or exist in my actions. They just seem to start in response to other conditions and causes.

Memories?

These feel like something I own, but in reality I don’t think they are separate from thoughts. They may have a more specific sensory component that feels accurate, although it may not be accurate (e.g. what something looked like). I can’t control what I remember or when I remember it.

Is there a seer or just seeing? Is there an experiencer or just experience?

This one I feel more stuck on because I feel as though I am sat in my head behind my eyes!

[Elad]

Is there anything that is controlled or owned by or is "a you" ?

Attention? Awareness?

Attention and awareness feel very similar - and about what is dominant in my experience at any one time. It feels like something that flits around moving from one moment to the next unless I am meditating with a very calm mind. And like it can only really rest on one thing at a time.

If I had to differentiate them, awareness might be about a broader field of experience but functionally one thing dominates at a time.

E.g. sensation on the end of my thumb as I type, then a low burn from an injury in my foot, a laugh from the other side of the room, my forearms resting on the table etc.

I certainly can’t control it in a moment to moment sense, even if I can follow a broader intention to focus on the breath (for example). Perhaps this is attention arising dependent on the condition of my intention-thought about following the breath.

Of course concentration can be trained. We are not here to questions conventional skill building on the conventional level, which might include focus on breath, loving kindness, etc etc.

The question here is simpler and deeper: Is there actually a you who can control what attention does, when looked at in direct experience rather then in thought stories. Say if there is an instruction to stay with the breath for 10 seconds (try now). Weather it happens or doesn't happen, is there in any way a you who controls that? Where is that you?

Or it is just conditioning happening according to its nature, be it "jana concentration", "monkey mind gone wild" or anything in between?


Watch out for trying to analyze your way here. It will keep you confused. All these questions are only about attending to direct experience here and now freshly, and seeing what is there and what is not. They are never calling for you to analyze past experience and come up with "philosopical hypotheses".

Love?

I experience love somatically/with a contraction in my chest accompanied by thoughts which might include positive qualities of an individual or about my affection for them. This arises and I am not it. I don’t own it, although I claim it through thoughts about it.

Yes clear so far...

I don’t control it, although I can take actions that create conditions for it - e.g. looking at a photo of a loved one.

Can you?? In the next moment go get that photo or dont do it!

And look! Which ever decision happens, whichever action happens, is there a you to be found doing it?

Expansion or contraction?

This is an action and I don’t own, control or exist in my actions. They just seem to start in response to other conditions and causes.

Right

Memories?

These feel like something I own, but in reality I don’t think they are separate from thoughts. They may have a more specific sensory component that feels accurate, although it may not be accurate (e.g. what something looked like). I can’t control what I remember or when I remember it.

Right. Memories not owned by you, not referring to any findable you, not controlled by you.

Is there a seer or just seeing? Is there an experiencer or just experience?

This one I feel more stuck on because I feel as though I am sat in my head behind my eyes!

Great you caught that! Look closer. Where exactly/what exactly is this supposed "you" behind your eyes? Is it a sensation? Is it a thought? Is it really an "I" ?

Again, no analyzing - only looking in direct experience.

[GoldenBoy]

Thanks, Elad.

The question here is simpler and deeper: Is there actually a you who can control what attention does, when looked at in direct experience rather then in thought stories. Say if there is an instruction to stay with the breath for 10 seconds (try now). Weather it happens or doesn't happen, is there in any way a you who controls that? Where is that you?

I actually can’t control that. It either happens or it doesn’t happen, dependent on other conditions that aren’t ‘me’. Although, at this point, I feel as though I am witnessing it happening or not happening.

“I don’t control it, although I can take actions that create conditions for it - e.g. looking at a photo of a loved one.”

Can you?? In the next moment go get that photo or dont do it!

And look! Which ever decision happens, whichever action happens, is there a you to be found doing it?

No - there are things that could happen or not but I am not the one to initiate them.

Great you caught that! Look closer. Where exactly/what exactly is this supposed "you" behind your eyes? Is it a sensation? Is it a thought? Is it really an "I" ?

The view from my where my eyes are located in my head gives me the feeling that I am seeing from there. But my actual feeling of me-ness right now is sense inputs from a few points of tension - my lips pressed together, tension around my temples, a sensation of contraction in my eyes themselves. Together they feel like they give information about a place that “I” am located.

And then there are thoughts about a me.

[Elad]

I actually can’t control that.

Right!

It either happens or it doesn’t happen, dependent on other conditions that aren’t ‘me’.

Yes!

Although, at this point, I feel as though I am witnessing it happening or not happening.

Look closer at that. Is there anything about the "feeling" that inherently says that it is you feeling it? Or just a feeling plus an habitual belief that this feeling means you are there feeling it?

“I don’t control it, although I can take actions that create conditions for it - e.g. looking at a photo of a loved one.”

Can you?? In the next moment go get that photo or dont do it!

And look! Which ever decision happens, whichever action happens, is there a you to be found doing it?

No - there are things that could happen or not but I am not the one to initiate them.

Exactly.

Great you caught that! Look closer. Where exactly/what exactly is this supposed "you" behind your eyes? Is it a sensation? Is it a thought? Is it really an "I" ?

The view from my where my eyes are located in my head gives me the feeling that I am seeing from there. But my actual feeling of me-ness right now is sense inputs from a few points of tension - my lips pressed together, tension around my temples, a sensation of contraction in my eyes themselves. Together they feel like they give information about a place that “I” am located.

Again, those sensations are there. The thought "these sensations are me" is there. But is any me actually found there? Anything else then sensations plus a deep seated unfounded belief that the sensations are you (is the me really a sensation? can a sensation experience and think?).

And then there are thoughts about a me.

Sure. That is not gonna stop. But is there any me in any these thoughts or are any of these thoughts a me or is a me found they belong to? Or is it all thoughts about thoughts about thoughts?


Also try this exercise:



Imagine “me”

Many experience the ‘me’ as being centred in the head.
What I would like you to do is imagine a small apple centred in the head.
Before the apple disappears….
…imagine a canary centred in the head, tweeting away.
Before, the canary flies off (weird huh?)….
…imagine a 'me' centred in the head.
Stay with it…
…imagine it is completely transparent. See straight through it…
…imagine there not seeming to be a 'me' in the head anymore.
Give it a go, see what happens.

[GoldenBoy]

“Although, at this point, I feel as though I am witnessing it happening or not happening.”

Look closer at that. Is there anything about the "feeling" that inherently says that it is you feeling it? Or just a feeling plus an habitual belief that this feeling means you are there feeling it?

It feels like there are consistently occurring sensations and thought patterns and that there are thoughts about these being familiar and therefore aspects of “my experience”.

So yes, habitual ways of thinking about the sense inputs.

Again, those sensations are there. The thought "these sensations are me" is there. But is any me actually found there? Anything else then sensations plus a deep seated unfounded belief that the sensations are you (is the me really a sensation? can a sensation experience and think?).

As above - it’s the thoughts that are there commenting on the sensations. I am not the sensations but also not the thoughts.

But is there any me in any these thoughts or are any of these thoughts a me or is a me found they belong to? Or is it all thoughts about thoughts about thoughts?

There is nothing I can point to that is the me. Just a persistent habit of interpretation/claiming/thinking of a me.

Imagine “me”

Many experience the ‘me’ as being centred in the head.
What I would like you to do is imagine a small apple centred in the head.
Before the apple disappears….
…imagine a canary centred in the head, tweeting away.
Before, the canary flies off (weird huh?)….
…imagine a 'me' centred in the head.
Stay with it…
…imagine it is completely transparent. See straight through it…
…imagine there not seeming to be a 'me' in the head anymore.
Give it a go, see what happens.

I struggled with visualising this. Although I did have a sense of substanceless/emptiness when I was trying to imagine the transparent me.

What is interesting is that sometimes when I am meditating (samadhi practice) - I get the feeling of people people who are not me. Imagined people with a different age and gender but not anyone I actually know. Like the sensations are being interpreted differently.

Perhaps my feeling of people me is not more “true”.

Also: now I have seen that I don’t instigate actions, I keep seeing this. I feel as though I am just sort of along for the ride but not steering.

[GoldenBoy]

*Perhaps my feeling of me is not more “true”.

[Elad]

Lots of clarity here...

Continue to this exercise:

Headless Way
(Taken from The Headless Way)

Have a look around you. You can see colours of the room, of your 'feet’, of your ‘knees’,
of your ‘chest’ and perhaps of your 'hands'.
Now point a finger towards the place where others see your head and face.
What do you see? Do you see your face? Do you see your head?
Do you see anything at all there - any colours, shapes, or any movement?
Looking into the place where others see your face, do you see colours or shapes there?
What do you find?

[Elad]

*Perhaps my feeling of me is not more “true”.

Yes. This is the core. Just continue noticing what is being habitually believed to be "the you" and what is actually there "in it" or "what is it made of" in direct experience.

Is there an experiencer or just experiencing?

[GoldenBoy]

Headless Way
(Taken from The Headless Way)

Have a look around you. You can see colours of the room, of your 'feet’, of your ‘knees’,
of your ‘chest’ and perhaps of your 'hands'.
Now point a finger towards the place where others see your head and face.
What do you see? Do you see your face? Do you see your head?
Do you see anything at all there - any colours, shapes, or any movement?
Looking into the place where others see your face, do you see colours or shapes there?
What do you find?

So far when I have tried this, I can fairly easily relax into focussing on the shape and colour of various objects, rather than the label of 'what they are'. But when I get to point at my own body, I am much louder with 'that's my foot!' - so the claiming is stronger.

Very literally, I don't see anything then I look at the place where others see my face because it's not at all in my field of vision.