Help seeing through the separate self

[Noro]

Hello Ellie,

Just on a side note, I have a fairly low ability to visualise with my eyes closed so I found 'seeing' what is in front of me a little difficult as all I see is black. I know what is there though, it is just a bit fuzzy and requires quite a lot of effort.

Ellie, you did it perfectly! There was no instruction to visualize, imagine or know. You said you could see black... that's exactly right! Direct experience doesn't mislead. Sometimes, if the eyes are closed and the sun is bright it can be more like a dark red. So what you see is what you see!! If you had said that you saw nothing (no things), then I would have asked you to look again because that would be thinking arising!!


HEARING INVESTIGATION

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and either a) listen to the sounds in the room where you are, b) or sounds from outside. Or, c) you can put on some music. Allow yourself to relax and open to the whole 'sound field'. Allow yourself to become absorbed into the sound field.

In your direct experience:

Where does it feel that the sound is?

Where does it feel that "I" am?

Can any boundary that can be found anywhere between what seems to be hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'sounds arising'?

Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

Can location or distance be known from simply hearing?

An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can any of these be found doing hearing?

Can a hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

Now ask: What is the difference in experience between listening and hearing?
What happens to the quality of hearing when you ask this question?
Does attention shift from hearing to the thought space?

Notice any sensations that arise in the body with this question.
Be fully with the sensations in the body, let go of any thoughts
Allow yourself once again to become absorbed in the sounds.

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?
Could anything that is suggested as a hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

What do you find?

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hello Rowena,

There was no instruction to visualize, imagine or know. You said you could see black... that's exactly right! Direct experience doesn't mislead.

Ah I see! I think I was overthinking it again!

Where does it feel that the sound is?

It feels like the sound is coming from the object.

Where does it feel that "I" am?

It feels like "I" am in the body. The sound is coming from over there to the body.

Can any boundary that can be found anywhere between what seems to be hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?

There is no boundary, there is only what is heard.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'sounds arising'?

There are only sounds arising.

Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

There is no hearer, there is only what is heard.

Can location or distance be known from simply hearing?

Sounds which are further away are quieter - for example when I hear a bird I know if it is close or far away. Sounds come from the object and are heard in front, behind or to the side of the body, so there is an approximation of location. I can move towards the sound and this will bring the body closer to the object.

An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can any of these be found doing hearing?

Nothing can be found to be doing hearing, it just happens.

Can a hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

No

Now ask: What is the difference in experience between listening and hearing?

Listening is active and hearing is passive. When I listen there is thought involved.

What happens to the quality of hearing when you ask this question?

It becomes stilted, it is filtered through the mind, it is less pure or raw.

Does attention shift from hearing to the thought space?

Yes

Notice any sensations that arise in the body with this question.
Be fully with the sensations in the body, let go of any thoughts
Allow yourself once again to become absorbed in the sounds.

When I am listening, there is a pressure in the head and there is a contraction in the heart. When I switch to hearing there is an expansion in the heart again, it feels freer.

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?
Could anything that is suggested as a hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
What do you find?

There is no hearer, the idea of a hearer is purely intellectual. When I try to find the hearer, nothing can be found, it is a blank space.

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi again Ellie,

These were the first two questions you answered, and I wonder, if they would have been at the end of the meditation, you might have answered differently.

Where does it feel that the sound is?

It feels like the sound is coming from the object.

The way we use language can be very misleading, or rather leading.... We use seeing, hearing, feeling in a variety of ways when we communicate when we are not actually referring to the sense involved. So if it was misleading, I will try and rephrase the question, but would like to add that we can feel sound vibrations through the whole body if we can be relaxed enough to be fully in the direct experience of hearing.

With your eyes closed, and with an open awareness of all sounds arising in the environment, is it possible, in your direct experience to 'know' that a sound comes from a particular object without a thought saying "it comes from that object?"
AND, If the mind says that it appears to come from your right, left, in front, or behind. Can you see those are all thoughts?Does hearing know about location or direction?

Now, a bit more tricky
Where does it feel that "I" am?

It feels like "I" am in the body. The sound is coming from over there to the body.

OK, fair enough, that is the usual way of perceiving, BUT we are looking in direct experience at feeling, which is feeling sensations.

Without a thought saying "I am in the body" what remains? Let go of thought and simply remain in sensation.

And now, look again at this question in your direct experience, just to re-affirm:

Can any boundary that can be found anywhere between what seems to be hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?

There is no boundary, there is only what is heard.

Yes! and now allow yourself to fully relax into the direct experience of what is heard.
Allow ambient sounds to simply be, without naming them, like an unstructured piece of jazz!


Can location or distance be known from simply hearing?

Sounds which are further away are quieter - for example when I hear a bird I know if it is close or far away. Sounds come from the object and are heard in front, behind or to the side of the body, so there is an approximation of location. I can move towards the sound and this will bring the body closer to the object.

All the above is true relatively, but can you see that you have answered this with your mind, through thinking. And again, until looking from direct experience becomes a kind of default way of experiencing, totally to be expected.
But can you know location or distance from simply hearing?
What thinks it knows? Hearing, or a thought that thinks, "I know"?


What happens to the quality of hearing when you ask this question?

It becomes stilted, it is filtered through the mind, it is less pure or raw.

Yes! :)


Notice any sensations that arise in the body with this question.
Be fully with the sensations in the body, let go of any thoughts
Allow yourself once again to become absorbed in the sounds.

When I am listening, there is a pressure in the head and there is a contraction in the heart. When I switch to hearing there is an expansion in the heart again, it feels freer.

Beautiful, stay there!

I will let you play around with the sound field and direct experience of hearing a little more.

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

I have spent a long time with this, this afternoon - I decided to listen to some music as I "thought" there would be less mind involved!

Where does it feel that the sound is?
With your eyes closed, and with an open awareness of all sounds arising in the environment, is it possible, in your direct experience to 'know' that a sound comes from a particular object without a thought saying "it comes from that object?"
AND, If the mind says that it appears to come from your right, left, in front, or behind. Can you see those are all thoughts?Does hearing know about location or direction?

I lay on the bed and the sound came from everywhere, it felt like it was inside and outside. I get heart palpitations (which can feel like anxiety at times) but it just felt like my whole body was pulsing in time to the music. It was quite a strange experience.

Where does it feel that "I" am?
Without a thought saying "I am in the body" what remains? Let go of thought and simply remain in sensation.

There was no "I", my body melted and there was just pure sound everywhere.

Can any boundary that can be found anywhere between what seems to be hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?

There was no boundary, there was just an immersion in sound, inside and outside.

Can location or distance be known from simply hearing?
But can you know location or distance from simply hearing?

Because there was no boundary between "me" and the sound and it felt like it surrounded me I couldn't sense any distance or location.

What thinks it knows? Hearing, or a thought that thinks, "I know"?

I am finding this question trickier! My mind is trying to get involved!
What thinks it knows location and distance is the mind and the body using all the senses to navigate the world in order to safely get around, but this is just thought. Hearing can't know - there is just awareness of sound. Now I'm not so sure!

When I got up from the bed I felt very peaceful and spacey, I felt a bit disorientated for a while!

Thank you for pushing me to look harder!

Warmly,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hello again Ellie!

I lay on the bed and the sound came from everywhere, it felt like it was inside and outside. I get heart palpitations (which can feel like anxiety at times) but it just felt like my whole body was pulsing in time to the music. It was quite a strange experience.

This is a new experience for the body, so some reactions can be experienced. If there was some anxiety then it is always advisable to go gently.


What thinks it knows? Hearing, or a thought that thinks, "I know"?

I am finding this question trickier! My mind is trying to get involved. What thinks it knows location and distance is the mind and the body using all the senses to navigate the world in order to safely get around, but this is just thought.

Yes, this is what minds do! They want to keep us safe.

Hearing can't know - there is just awareness of sound. Now I'm not so sure!

Yes, exactly. Hearing can't know. Listening to sounds....simply hearing.

When I got up from the bed I felt very peaceful and spacey, I felt a bit disorientated for a while!

My take on the above, as I have experienced this spaciness and feeling disorientated. It seems to arise when the mind (nervous system) has been enticed out of its normal comfort zone into a new discovery. So there is a momentary disorientation and time needed to integrate. Hopefully the disorientation will have passed, but if not, I suggest you do some simple breathing exercise together with a body scan starting from the feet upwards in order to help you feel grounded. This can happen with any new insight along the way, so it will be good to learn what works best for you. A cup of tea also works well!

That's all for this evening. Please let me know how you feel in the morning and I will send you another 'meditation' exercise to do, or if you would rather have a couple of days off over the weekend, that's OK too.

Warm wishes,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Good morning Rowena,

The dust seems to have settled and I have gone back to my 'normal' self! The disorientation didn't last too long but I was thinking about sound all evening!

I will have some time this afternoon when I am finished work so an exercise to try would be good for today.

Over the weekend I don't think I will be able to do a long meditation but I will have time to do a shorter session (maybe 20 mins or so). Or I can continue to do the exercises in the moment which I have done previously, unless there is something in particular you would like me to try.

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Good Morning Ellie, it is a wet one here in Belgium!

The dust seems to have settled and I have gone back to my 'normal' self! The disorientation didn't last too long but I was thinking about sound all evening!

Im glad the dust has settled. For me, the sound field is a go-to place for regulation and relaxing. Watching the difference between thinking about sounds, identifying what they are and where they are coming from and then dropping all thoughts and identification and just letting sound be sound (like a very unstructured jazz moment!) It is a wonderful meditation/contemplation which can be done at any time.


LABELS : REALITY CORRELATION: GREEN-RED

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with reality, (i.e. direct experience). But they don't necessarily. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label GREEN, what is the actual experience?
Is the color red experienced, or is the color green experienced as the label suggests?

Does the label GREEN have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label GOOD or BAD , is the 'redness' affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’? Do the labels have an actual effect on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is actually SEEN?

Are you clear that there is nothing green there to experience?
All we are doing is noticing that the words are not the things themselves - never have been and never will be. Are you clear about that?

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

It has been very wet here too! Think the sun might make it through later.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

No, green is just a label. The overwhelming experience is red, which can't really be described in words!

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’? Do the labels have an actual effect on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is actually SEEN?

No, redness doesn't become good or bad but the meaning of the word 'bad' especially is so ingrained that when seeing the word there is a slight contraction.

What is actually seen is the colour, it has nothing to do with the label. The only experience is red.

Thanks,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi again! :)

No, redness doesn't become good or bad but the meaning of the word 'bad' especially is so ingrained that when seeing the word there is a slight contraction.

Thank you for sharing this. Because of early conditioning we can have strong associations with words/thoughts/beliefs/mental images, etc. that cause body reactions. As you have this sensitivity, I would like you to keep an open curiosity and noticing when there seems to be a reaction like you mentioned. The meditations of direct perception do allow more space for feelings and sensations to arise/be noticed, and I think it is important to welcome them in to 'join the inquiry' as it were. Think of them as bubbles of energy that are arising to the surface to be released.

Lets do a little inquiry:
What does that sensation that arose with the word "bad" feel like?
Where is it located in the body?
Does the actual sensation FEEL bad?
Is there any resistance to feeling the original sensation?
What does that resistance FEEL like?

Now, feel your feet on the ground and your butt on the chair at the same time as the sensation associated with bad:
Apart from the thoughts about the sensations i.e. intensity/location/texture of the sensation, is one sensation any different from another, or simply, sensations arising.


Now is a good time for this meditation:


BUTTCHAIR

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just be with the sensations.

Sink into that noticing. Notice how it FEELS.
Let me know how this went


Until later,

Rowena

[Noro]

I forgot to highlight some of the questions in blue! Please respond anyway. R

[aldertree]

Hello,

Thank you for pointing to this!

What does that sensation that arose with the word "bad" feel like?
Where is it located in the body?
Does the actual sensation FEEL bad?
Is there any resistance to feeling the original sensation?
What does that resistance FEEL like?

There was a contracting feeling in the heart and a pressure in the top of my head. The sensation itself doesn't feel bad but I suppose there is a learnt idea that certain feelings are bad for us or unsafe - it is a way for our mind to protect the body. This is just a thought though! There is a resistance because it seems if I feel it, it is confirming that there is something bad about me. It feels like I am moving away from the feeling.

Apart from the thoughts about the sensations i.e. intensity/location/texture of the sensation, is one sensation any different from another, or simply, sensations arising.

No, there is simply sensation arising!

Buttchair

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just be with the sensations.

Sink into that noticing. Notice how it FEELS.

I stayed with this for some time. There was no line only a feeling of pressure and a subtle pulsing and tingling sensation. After a time it was hard to tell where my legs were in relation to the chair and felt like they had melted down into the chair almost.

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hello again,

We are jumping into the deep end here! It may be a bit confusing at first, but the purpose is to get really clear regarding what is going on in our experience with mental activity (thoughts and images) and when they seem to be confirmed by body sensations. To get clear about this now will bring clarity in the future about thoughts that are believed.

There was a contracting feeling in the heart and a pressure in the top of my head. The sensation itself doesn't feel bad but I suppose there is a learnt idea that certain feelings are bad for us or unsafe - it is a way for our mind to protect the body. This is just a thought though!

There is a resistance because it seems if I feel it, it is confirming that there is something bad about me. It feels like I am moving away from the feeling.

It was really great that you noticed the resistance and that it felt like you are moving away from the original feelings.

Please answer each question for clarity:

Can you see that "it felt like I am moving away from the feeling." Is thought, not actuality?
Can a sensation by itself move away from anything, or does it need a thought to say this?

Since the sensation labelled resistance seems to be a resistance to the feeling that seems to confirm that there is something bad about you. LOOK AT THIS:

Can a sensation resist? Does sensation have agency to resist or not resist?
Can you stay in your body and be with the sensation labelled resistance that seems to be a kind of overlay protection of the body responding to thoughts?
Can you see that all interpretations of a situation are thoughts arising trying to get some sort of understanding and control and that sensations are simply sensations?

Simply BE with your body and the sensations and allow them free movement to flow as they will.

I stayed with this for some time. There was no line only a feeling of pressure and a subtle pulsing and tingling sensation. After a time it was hard to tell where my legs were in relation to the chair and felt like they had melted down into the chair almost.

Lovely !


CUP EXERCISE - TWO TYPES OF THOUGHTS
Here is an exercise which points out the difference between direct experience and content of thought

There are two types of thoughts: a thought label "Here is a cup", and a mental (visual) image of a 'cup'.

So I invite you to do this exercise:

Go into your kitchen and get hold of a cup.

Now, leave the cup and go into another room.

Think of the cup, get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile.

Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Can you physically grasp or touch that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a "real' cup or just an image of a cup?
Is the imagined content of the mental image (the cup) 'real'?

The thoughts and mental images are 'real' only as arising thoughts and mental images, the experience of them as thinking cannot be denied. However the contents of thought, what the thoughts are about, are not 'real', they are interpretations overlaid onto the direct experience.

Can you see this? Let me know how you got on.


Warmly,

Rowena

[Noro]

Ive altered the language in the above exercise a little bit as the word 'real' might cause some confusion:

CUP EXERCISE - TWO TYPES OF THOUGHTS
Here is an exercise which points out the difference between direct experience and content of thought

There are two types of thoughts: a thought label "Here is a cup", and a mental (visual) image of a 'cup'.

So I invite you to do this exercise:

Think of a cup, get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. 
Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp or touch that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a "real' cup or just an image of a cup?
Is the imagined content of the mental image (the cup) 'real'?

Thoughts and mental images about a cup do not make the cup 'real', even when there is a 'real' physical cup in the kitchen relatively speaking. The direct experience of thinking cannot be denied. However the contents of thought, what the thoughts are about, are not 'real', they are interpretations overlaid onto the direct experience.

Can you see this?

[aldertree]

Good evening,

I have done the first section but I can't see the difference between the wording for the two cup exercises. I will leave this one for now and come back to it later in the weekend if I have time.

Can you see that "it felt like I am moving away from the feeling." Is thought, not actuality?

Yes this is only a thought, nothing was actually moving away.

Can a sensation by itself move away from anything, or does it need a thought to say this?

A sensation can move around in the body but it doesn't move away from a label such as 'resistance'

Can a sensation resist? Does sensation have agency to resist or not resist?

No sensation cannot resist, it just is.

Can you stay in your body and be with the sensation labelled resistance that seems to be a kind of overlay protection of the body responding to thoughts?

Yes it just feels like a contraction in the heart, it is very similar to the initial sensation.

Can you see that all interpretations of a situation are thoughts arising trying to get some sort of understanding and control and that sensations are simply sensations?

Yes, "I" am always seeking to understand what sensations mean, in the hopes that this will make them go away or lessen in some way but this is just a thought. In fact wallowing in the thoughts tends to cause more suffering. When I focus on just the sensations in the body it lessens.

I am signing off for now! I hope you have a lovely Friday evening and start to your weekend. Thanks so much for your patience!

Ellie

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

I hope you are having a nice weekend. I am just coming back to this as I happened to have a bit of unexpected time! I see the difference between the exercises now so thought I would have a go.

Now, can you physically grasp or touch that image of a cup?

No

Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

No and no!

Is there a "real' cup or just an image of a cup?

Just the image of a cup.

Is the imagined content of the mental image (the cup) 'real'?

Certainly not

Thoughts and mental images about a cup do not make the cup 'real', even when there is a 'real' physical cup in the kitchen relatively speaking. The direct experience of thinking cannot be denied. However the contents of thought, what the thoughts are about, are not 'real', they are interpretations overlaid onto the direct experience.

Can you see this?

Yes I can see that the contents of thoughts are not real so it is important to separate the direct experience - the actual sensations (what is really there) - from the thoughts about the sensations.

Warm wishes,
Ellie