A recent seeker

[Noro]

Dear Glen,

Thanks for your reply, I look forward to hearing from you when you return from your travels.

Warmly,

Rowena

[gagliano1770]

Dear Rowena,

Thank you for your patience. Here we go.

When you look at the word label GREEN, what is the actual experience?
Is the color red experienced, or is the color green experienced as the label suggests?

I experience the color red. I don't experience the color green at all, only the word, which seems to lose its meaning.

Does the label GREEN have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

I'm not sure what you mean by "one-to-one correspondence with reality." The red label seems to negate the meaning of the word "green," so perhaps the label doesn't have a one-to-one correspondence with reality.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red?
Or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

Green is just a label that overlays the actual experience of red.

If the label GREEN is replaced with the label GOOD or BAD , is the 'redness' affected in any way as the labels suggests?

I think that the redness is not affected.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’?
Do the labels have an actual effect on ‘reality’?

The redness does not become good or bad, so the labels don't have an actual effect on reality.

Let me know what is actually SEEN?

The label GREEN in red font turns the word green into simply a collection of sounds without meaning.

Are you clear that there is nothing green there to experience?

Yes, I get that.

All we are doing is noticing that the words are not the things themselves - never have been and never will be.
Are you clear about that?

Yes.

Thank you, Rowena,
Glen

[Noro]

Hello Glen,

I'm was happy to receive your last post which was very clear. I just wanted to let you know that I usually continue to send out exercises after each reply, and of course will pick up on any points that haven't seemed clear from the questions. For me, the focus in the beginning is to develop a really clear practice of direct experience via the senses which helps for clear seeing when looking for a 'separate self'. However, if you ever feel you are needing some direct work with particular personal issues please do let me know.


HEARING EXERCISE

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?

2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just what can be heard'?

4) Can a boundary be found between the hearer and what's heard or is there only what's heard?

4b) Is there location or distance of what is heard?

5) What is the difference in the experience between listening and hearing?

Warmly,

Rowena

[gagliano1770]

Dear Rowena,

I apologize again. I understand what you are saying about keeping up the practice, and I will endeavor to do so.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?

No.

2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

I want to say yes, I am doing the hearing, but I realize that there is only what is being heard.

3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just what can be heard'?

I can identify these things, but when I focus on the hearing, all I can find is what can be heard.

4) Can a boundary be found between the hearer and what's heard or is there only what's heard?

There is only what’s heard.

4b) Is there location or distance of what is heard?

Again, I want to say yes, but if I focus on it, no, it’s an illusion.

5) What is the difference in the experience between listening and hearing?

Hearing is nonjudgmental and open. Listening implies an effort at understanding.

Thank you again for your patience.
Glen

[Noro]

Hi Glen,

Good to have you back!

2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

I want to say yes, I am doing the hearing, but I realize that there is only what is being heard.

I can see that you clearly 'see' (for want of a better word) that there is only what is being heard.
In order to keep to the clarity of direct experience, thinking was also present, the content of which was thoughts saying "I want to say yes, I am doing the hearing....."

If there was any inkling of an "I" doing the hearing, where might that "I" be found?

The same goes for when thoughts arose "I can identify......." etc. Where is that "I" that can identify located.
Is it hiding somewhere in the body?
Please take a look and let me know if you can find a separate "I" somewhere.


Now, let's look for a separate hearer:


SIMPLY HEARING
Put on some music. Use earphones if you have them.
Allow yourself to become absorbed in the sounds.
See if you can feel the body resonating with the sounds.
Ask the following questions:

Where does it feel that the sound is?
Where does it feel that "I" am?
Now ask "What is hearing?" and "Where is it located?"
Is there something called a hearer to be found separate from what is heard?

What happens to the quality of hearing when you ask this question?
Does attention shift from hearing to the thought space?

Notice any sensations that arise in the body with this question.
Be fully with the sensations in the body, let go of any thoughts
Allow yourself once again to become absorbed in the sounds.

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?
Could anything that is suggested as a hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Warmly,

Rowena

[gagliano1770]

Thank you, Rowena

If there was any inkling of an "I" doing the hearing, where might that "I" be found?

Well, part of the difficulty of this exercise is talking about it without referring to an "I." If there is an inkling, it feels like the "I" is in my head, but pointing to it can't happen because it can't be identified.

The same goes for when thoughts arose "I can identify......." etc. Where is that "I" that can identify located.
Is it hiding somewhere in the body?
Please take a look and let me know if you can find a separate "I" somewhere.

It can't be found.

SIMPLY HEARING
Put on some music. Use earphones if you have them.
Allow yourself to become absorbed in the sounds.
See if you can feel the body resonating with the sounds.
Ask the following questions:
Where does it feel that the sound is?

It's simply present. It can't be located.

Where does it feel that "I" am?

Here. Present, but unlocatable.

Now ask "What is hearing?" and "Where is it located?"

It's formless and can't be pinpointed.

Is there something called a hearer to be found separate from what is heard?

No! They seem to be the same.

What happens to the quality of hearing when you ask this question?

It deepens.

Does attention shift from hearing to the thought space?

Attention seems to occupy the same space as the music. Is that hearing or the thought space? Or something different?

Notice any sensations that arise in the body with this question.
Be fully with the sensations in the body, let go of any thoughts
Allow yourself once again to become absorbed in the sounds.
Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?

No.

Could anything that is suggested as a hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

No. There is simply hearing.

Putting down this exercise for the moment, I feel it's important to tell you that I have a strong desire to answer your questions "correctly" and get a good grade, or a gold star. And, I feel that I am answering your questions truthfully and honestly. I want you to be aware of this tendency that I have.

With best wishes,
Glen

[Noro]

Hello Glen,

Putting down this exercise for the moment, I feel it's important to tell you that I have a strong desire to answer your questions "correctly" and get a good grade, or a gold star. And, I feel that I am answering your questions truthfully and honestly. I want you to be aware of this tendency that I have.

You are not the first to say that Glen, I think it is the format of reading questions and answering them as an exercise and an old pattern of conditioning that wants us to find the 'correct' answer. If you can leave all that aside, each 'exercise' is really a meditation on direct experience and looking to find something separate that is apart from the experience. Also, I acknowledge that some of the questions are a bit misleading and seem to require a more personal, conceptual response and if I am not sure about that I will just inquire again to make sure. As per your comment below:

If there was any inkling of an "I" doing the hearing, where might that "I" be found?

Well, part of the difficulty of this exercise is talking about it without referring to an "I." If there is an inkling, it feels like the "I" is in my head, but pointing to it can't happen because it can't be identified.

So your response is clear, no actual "I" can be identified. :)


CUP EXERCISE - TWO TYPES OF THOUGHTS
Here is an exercise which points out the difference between direct experience and content of thought.

There are two types of thoughts: a thought label "Here is a cup", and a mental (visual) image of a 'cup'.

So I invite you to do this exercise:

Think of a cup, get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. 
Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp or touch that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a "real' cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) 'real'?

The thoughts and mental images are 'real' only as arising thoughts and mental images, the experience of them as thinking cannot be denied. However the contents of thought, what the thoughts are about, are not 'real', they are interpretations overlaid onto the direct experience.
Can you see this?

Now try the same exercise with a bar of chocolate or something you know will bring a body response when thinking about it.
Now imagine yourself opening the packaging and eating a piece of the chocolate?

Is either of the above two imaginings more 'real' than the other?
Was there any body response to one or both of the two imaginings?

If yes, let go of the mental image and bring your full attention to be with the body sensations for a while.
Let them be, just as they are....simply sensations.

Let me know how you got on.

Warmly,

Rowena

[gagliano1770]

Dear Rowena,

Thank you. Continuing:

Now, can you physically grasp or touch that image of a cup?

No.

Can you pour tea into it?

No.

Can you drink from it?

No, of course not.

Is there a "real' cup or just an image of a cup?

The image is "real", but the cup is not, at least not in the same way.

Is there an appearing mental image?

Yes.

Is the content of the mental image (the cup) 'real'?

What's the difference between the content of the mental image and the image itself? If the image is real, then the content is also real in the same way. Am I muddying the waters here? The simple answer to your question is no.

The thoughts and mental images are 'real' only as arising thoughts and mental images, the experience of them as thinking cannot be denied. However the contents of thought, what the thoughts are about, are not 'real', they are interpretations overlaid onto the direct experience.
Can you see this?

Yes, this makes sense.

Is either of the above two imaginings more 'real' than the other?

No.

Was there any body response to one or both of the two imaginings?

There is a body response to the chocolate, in my mouth and in my belly.

Thank you,
Glen

[Noro]

Hi Glen,

I agree that the language of the last exercise is rather confusing by the use of the word 'real'. But your answers are clear.


OBSERVING THOUGHTS
The Direct experience of thought is also very important in the seeing through the self illusion. Take your time and really work through this exercise, if you like, it can be helpful to get a piece of paper and write it as it comes and in the flow of questioning and looking, clarity comes.

Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice any thoughts arising.
Just let them appear as and when they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

Can a thought think another thought?

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?

Please answer ALL the questions.
Look as many times as it is possible during the day even for a few seconds.


Warm wishes,

Rowena

[gagliano1770]

Dear Rowena,

Thank you. Going on:

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

I don't know. They seem to appear from nowhere and disappear to nowhere.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Not that I'm aware of. No.

Can you predict your next thought?

No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

This is a tricky one. At some level we can influence our thoughts, no? Otherwise we wouldn't be able to learn anything, remember anything, or grow. No, I can't pick and choose my thoughts, or prevent thoughts from arising, but I can try to use my thoughts for the greater good.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

No. But can't I assume agency as the result of a thought? Otherwise I would never do anything. Everything we do requires thought at some level, doesn't it?

Can a thought think another thought?

No.

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?

No.

These are simple but difficult questions.
Thank you for your help.
Glen

[Noro]

Hello Glen,

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

This is a tricky one. At some level we can influence our thoughts, no? Otherwise we wouldn't be able to learn anything, remember anything, or grow. No, I can't pick and choose my thoughts, or prevent thoughts from arising, but I can try to use my thoughts for the greater good.

You talk about influencing our thoughts otherwise we wouldn't be able to learn anything etc. Well, think about that, in the above scenario, something must have been experienced that had an impact on the 'system' that caused a shift in perspective.
From that shift in perspective, comes a shift in attitude from what was perhaps viewed as carelessness in retrospect into a more 'positive' attitude (for the greater good.)
Is there an independent 'you' that needs to be present in all this?
Is there a 'you' who could pick and choose any kind of thought?

When you are hungry, thoughts of eating appear.
When you have work to do, thoughts about work appear.
All thoughts simply appear, but the content is mostly not 'out of the blue' as it were, for the mind is always processing, making associations, assumptions, and interpretations about what it comes into contact with.
Does this make it clear?

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

No. But can't I assume agency as the result of a thought? Otherwise I would never do anything. Everything we do requires thought at some level, doesn't it?

This is a great answer to look closely at. Can you see that you answered the question perfectly with the first word "No"!
And then 'the mind' jumps right back in with a strong BUT!!! 'The mind' has got to have its say!! Thoughts spewing out, expressing an entirely natural urge to keep going the belief of control, of the idea of agency.

** I have used 'the mind' here as if it is something that actually exists as a separate entity, like the elusive 'self' we are looking to find. It is another way for saying 'thinking' or 'thoughts'. No mind has ever been found in direct experience.

The first thing I would look at here is to find the 'motor' behind these thoughts. The thoughts are an expression of some inner resistance to the idea that there is no independent "I" or self that has agency.
And when there is resistance, there are always sensations in the body.

If it is still 'alive' please do a quiet little investigation with this and let me know what you find.

Now to the thoughts that arose:

But can't I assume agency as the result of a thought? Otherwise I would never do anything.

Please look for a separate "I" that could assume agency:

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"? (You've already answered that one in the exercise).
Can you find an "I" located at some precise point in the body?

If no "I" can be found, then isn't assuming agency as a result of a thought a moot point?

Can a a separate independent "I" or Do-er be found anywhere other than a thought?

Everything we do requires thought at some level, doesn't it?

In answer to that question here is a meditation where you can look and see if thoughts are required:

PALM FLIPPING MEDITATION
Take a moment to get comfortable and take a few deep breaths.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and EACH TIME inquire: How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control it?

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening?


Let me know how you get on.

And please take it gently, these 'meditations' are not to be answered by the thinking mind.
Think of it more as being in a state of flow.

Warmly,

Rowena

[gagliano1770]

Dear Rowena,

You talk about influencing our thoughts otherwise we wouldn't be able to learn anything etc. Well, think about that, in the above scenario, something must have been experienced that had an impact on the 'system' that caused a shift in perspective.
From that shift in perspective, comes a shift in attitude from what was perhaps viewed as carelessness in retrospect into a more 'positive' attitude (for the greater good.)
Is there an independent 'you' that needs to be present in all this?

No, and I can't find one.

Is there a 'you' who could pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

When you are hungry, thoughts of eating appear.
When you have work to do, thoughts about work appear.
All thoughts simply appear, but the content is mostly not 'out of the blue' as it were, for the mind is always processing, making associations, assumptions, and interpretations about what it comes into contact with.
Does this make it clear?

Yes, that's helpful.

The first thing I would look at here is to find the 'motor' behind these thoughts. The thoughts are an expression of some inner resistance to the idea that there is no independent "I" or self that has agency.
And when there is resistance, there are always sensations in the body.

If it is still 'alive' please do a quiet little investigation with this and let me know what you find.

Yes, I can sense the resistance in my chest and face.

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"? (You've already answered that one in the exercise).
Can you find an "I" located at some precise point in the body?

No to both questions.

Can a a separate independent "I" or Do-er be found anywhere other than a thought?

No.

I'll stop for now and continue with the next exercise tomorrow.

Thank you,
Glen

[gagliano1770]

Dear Rowena,

Continuing:

Do this as many times as you like, and EACH TIME inquire: How is the movement controlled?
- Does a thought control it?

No, not that I can tell.
\

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Strangely, no.

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I don't know.

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

I don't remember that anything or anyone made the decision.

Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No.

Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening?

I don't know. Recently I've been listening to a lot of Alan Watts's talks, and he often talks about a similar exercise - opening and closing the hand. He asks if you can describe how you do it. Of course the answer is no, but yet you know how to do it, because you do it. He also talks about making decisions, and says that we don't "do" it; it simply happens. If you had to decide to do things, you would have to decide to decide, and decide to decide to decide, an on and on ad infinitum. So, the answer to your question is no, as hard as that is to grasp.

Thank you,
Glen

[Noro]

Hi Glen,

Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening?

I don't know. Recently I've been listening to a lot of Alan Watts's talks, and he often talks about a similar exercise - opening and closing the hand. He asks if you can describe how you do it. Of course the answer is no, but yet you know how to do it, because you do it. He also talks about making decisions, and says that we don't "do" it; it simply happens. If you had to decide to do things, you would have to decide to decide, and decide to decide to decide, an on and on ad infinitum. So, the answer to your question is no, as hard as that is to grasp.

That's right, "you know how to do it, because you do it." Does that 'you' mentioned refer to anything in particular or just a way of languaging to say that somehow it is known? Is there a 'you' that can be found, or experienced separately from what is happening in direct experience?

Please look at your answer: 'no' - this was your direct experience that a thought is unable to initiate anything...etc.
Then you went on to say "as hard as that is to grasp." Yes of course, you are sliding from your direct experiencing, which is immediate, of the moment, back into the conceptual, habitual, conventional way of interpreting the world, a way where a idea developed that there was a separate "I" that decides all actions. And that "I" is identified with thoughts arising about taking actions.

We have just looked at the exercise on thoughts, prior to this one and you made this observation to the question:
Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening?
Then I wrote:
The first thing I would look at here is to find the 'motor' behind these thoughts. The thoughts are an expression of some inner resistance to the idea that there is no independent "I" or self that has agency.
And when there is resistance, there are always sensations in the body.

If it is still 'alive' please do a quiet little investigation with this and let me know what you find.
You wrote:

Yes, I can sense the resistance in my chest and face.

Please describe to me in your direct experience what is going on when you sense resistance/hard to grasp
What is your reaction? Please do a clinical investigation based on your direct experience, not conceptual.
What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?, and
Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening?

In your immediate, direct experience there will be thinking happening about the above sentences.
And there will be body sensations that somehow seem to be linked.
But look closely, can a sensation have an opinion? What's going on?


Warmly,

Rowena

[Noro]

One quote of Alan Watts that I love: "Do you do IT or does IT do you? :)