Greetings!

[Blanca]

Hi Rali! Responses below:

What is that “doesn’t ring true” exactly? Can you find it?
Is it anything more than a sensation plus a very subtle thought saying “this isn’t right”
Without that thought, is there a problem? OR just… what is?

What doesn't ring true is the idea that there is no difference between inside and outside. When I look, I can't find anything other than a thought and what I suppose is a sensation (though it doesn't really feel that way - like an emotion).

So… Without referring to any thought, is there an inside and an outside?
Don’t try to feel it. Don’t try to confirm it. Just look - can a boundary be found?

That's interesting... When I looked, I didn't find a boundary. And I actually had a thought like "well, wait, what exactly DOES it mean for something to be inside? Where is that line of demarcation, exactly?" I didn't see an answer and the mind only fed me more thoughts about it, so I stopped.

This “doesn’t ring true”, does it point to something real? Or is it just another thought appearing like all the others?

Yes! It's definitely a thought that I seem to automatically apply to a vague, sense of unease I feel about the concept. When I look directly at the unease like you recommended, it disappears. I actually can't even tell the difference between that feeling and my normal emotional experience.

Without that thought, is there resistance? Or just a sensation or even nothing in particular?
Is anything actually wrong? Or is there what IS and a thought saying “this should be different”?

Without that thought there isn't resistance. The thought IS the resistance. And certainly nothing is wrong. It's only a thought saying something should be different! :)

When that thought appears, does it create an actual boundary? Can you find a line, an edge, a border anywhere? Or just colours, sensations and a thought describing it as “inside” or “outside”?

Oh.... I see. Yes, it's just colors, sensations, and a thought labeling it "outside" (specifically of my skin). But that's just a thought!

Even if the thought “inside” appears, is there actually an inside?
Or just THIS with a thought about inside/outside?

Okay, I'm going to be honest, I still also have trouble grasping the "this-ness" of it all. :)

Hope you're well!

Still your friend,

B

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca
Good. Stay simple.
And this:

I still have trouble grasping the ‘this-ness’ of it all

That’s the problem. You’re trying to grasp it.
Are you not already in “this”?
Do you need to understand it, grasp it, feel it for it to be here?
Or is it already… unavoidable?
Thoughts are always out of step with reality, and they obstruct the clear seeing of how things actually are. Reality is very simple. Once you can see this, you will stop endlessly frustrating yourself by trying to figure out how things are.
Just look, what is it that is separate from what is, and trying to figure out how things are?
Is there a self or me here, who is separate and isolated from what is, from reality, and thus is in need to understand reality?

Truth or reality is not an idea or a belief. It cannot be grasped by thoughts. It does not need to be understood by the intellect. Actually, it is impossible to understand through thoughts. It is inconceivable, ungraspable. And yet, it can be directly seen.

Seeing is wordless, and immediate. The taste of chocolate is immediately experienced, since it is not conceptual. As soon as the label ‘taste of chocolate’ is added, the immediacy of experience is veiled by conceptualization. Any form of description is an abstraction, which is added after the immediate experience.

You’re expecting “this” to be something special. Something you can recognize. Something that feels different.
But check:
Is anything missing right now? Is there something else besides what is happening?
“This” is not something to get. It’s what remains when nothing is added.
You already saw that there is no boundary, no inside/outside, no self. Good! Without labels there is "no-thing" there
Now don’t turn “this” into a new object, into a new thing.
Without trying to grasp anything, without trying to understand anything…Is there anything other than whatever is happening?
That’s it. No need to call it “this.” No need to get it. It’s already the case.

Love
Rali

[Blanca]

That’s the problem. You’re trying to grasp it.

Aren't you always saying there's no problem?! :)

Are you not already in “this”?
Do you need to understand it, grasp it, feel it for it to be here?
Or is it already… unavoidable?

Yes, that's very true. Whether I grasp it or not, I am already in this. And to be honest, it's just another version of the resistance I felt at inside/outside concept.

Just look, what is it that is separate from what is, and trying to figure out how things are?
Is there a self or me here, who is separate and isolated from what is, from reality, and thus is in need to understand reality?

Ah, I see what you mean. No, there isn't a separate self that exists outside of reality or this. There is no one from that vantage point who needs to understand it.

Is anything missing right now? Is there something else besides what is happening?

No ma'am. There's only this, with nothing missing.

Now don’t turn “this” into a new object, into a new thing.

Yeah, that's definitely something my mind / thoughts started to do. :)

Without trying to grasp anything, without trying to understand anything…Is there anything other than whatever is happening?

No, there is nothing except what is happening right here and now.

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca,
Good.

Now don’t turn “this” into a new object, into a new thing.

Yeah, that's definitely something my mind / thoughts started to do. :)

Yeah, that’s the last habit. Nothing new needs to be created. Nothing needs to be maintained.
Is there anything at all that is not already exactly as it is?
...
Is there a self anywhere in any form separate from what is happening?
Not just now… Look “back”:
Was there ever a self at any point in life? Is there a separate self that has ever existed?
Or was it always just thoughts about a self?

So let's review where we are at with the following questions.
What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?
Is this seen clearly, with no doubt? Or is there still any hesitation?
Answer plainly.
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali - My responses below:

Is there anything at all that is not already exactly as it is?
...
Is there a self anywhere in any form separate from what is happening?

No, there is nothing that is not already exactly as it is. There is no self I can find using DE.

Was there ever a self at any point in life? Is there a separate self that has ever existed?
Or was it always just thoughts about a self?

Huh. This is interesting. I don't know why, but I didn't extrapolate that to the past. No, there wasn't ever a self. Only ever thoughts about the self.

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?

I subtly question the concept of a self existing more frequently. Then try to recognize even the questioning is itself a thought. Other than that, pretty much everything stays the same.

What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

I fear death less (I used to feel a real and persistent fear of what my thoughts identified as "annihilation." That is less loud now because there isn't a "me" that can be destroyed.

Is seeking still going on?

To be honest, I'm not sure. Sorry... :/ I find that I'm still subtly trying to "attain" something, which I subconsciously think is a persistent recognition of nondual existence. I recognize it's a thought, but it's a well-worn neural groove that might take some time to undo.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Yes. At the start of this inquiry, you said that awakening is the end of seeking. And you alluded to it in this here as well. When I think of seeking, I conceptualize it as the finding of something. You stop seeking because you found what you were looking for. But is it the end of seeking because you realize there is nothing to find?

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

I think so. It seems to be the grandfather of all illusions. The thought that there is an enduring, separate self that exists "inside" our own bodies.

Is this seen clearly, with no doubt? Or is there still any hesitation?

It is seen when I look. I think my hesitation is that I still feel like that is an action I have to take to see clearly.

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca
No, there wasn't ever a self. Only ever thoughts about the self.
Wonderful!!
One small thing to check:

I used to feel a real and persistent fear of what my thoughts identified as "annihilation." That is less loud now because there isn't a "me" that can be destroyed.

Look carefully.
Does death happen to someone? Or is “death of me” just a thought about something that was never there?
Is there anything here that can be annihilated? Or just what is happening with thoughts about future scenarios?
Don’t go to imagination. Look at what is actually here.

At the start of this inquiry, you said that awakening is the end of seeking. And you alluded to it in this here as well. When I think of seeking, I conceptualize it as the finding of something. You stop seeking because you found what you were looking for. But is it the end of seeking because you realize there is nothing to find?

Let’s look directly.
What is “seeking”? Can you find it? What is it made of?
Is it anything more than a thought saying “something is missing” or “I need to get somewhere”
Check… Without that thought, is there seeking?
Or just what is happening?
You assume there is something to find or there is nothing to find. But both are thoughts.
Is anything missing right now?
If nothing is missing, what would be the purpose of seeking?
Does seeking end because “something was found” or because the one who was seeking was never there?
Don’t answer from logic. Look.

It is seen when I look. I think my hesitation is that I still feel like that is an action I have to take to see clearly.

Feels like = thought content
Check! Are you doing the looking? How exactly are you doing this? How exactly are you looking – are you using eyes? Is there a mini me in a little arm chair looking through a telescope or a screen? Is it up to you? Are you deciding when looking is happening or it just happens when it happens (causes and conditions) - thought self-organising? Have a proper look :))

Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali - Responses below:

Does death happen to someone? Or is “death of me” just a thought about something that was never there?
Is there anything here that can be annihilated? Or just what is happening with thoughts about future scenarios?

No, death isn't something that happens to someone or something. It's more But death does happen. What gets annihilated are thoughts, really. Anything material just transforms into some other material. And thoughts don't make a self. Only the illusion of a self. So when I think of it, what was I so afraid of? The end of thinking? When I put it that way, it seems silly.

What is “seeking”? Can you find it? What is it made of?
Is it anything more than a thought saying “something is missing” or “I need to get somewhere”
Check… Without that thought, is there seeking?
Or just what is happening?

I see... Seeking is indeed just another thought with maybe a physical sensation attached to it. It certainly isn't present all the time. And I don't think it exists independent of that.

Is anything missing right now?
If nothing is missing, what would be the purpose of seeking?
Does seeking end because “something was found” or because the one who was seeking was never there?

Right! Yes, it only exists because of a thought. Seeking is an action by an entity. Without an entity, there can be no seeking. I know you said not to use logic, but that seems more like self-evident when you look for a self and can't find it.

Check! Are you doing the looking? How exactly are you doing this? How exactly are you looking – are you using eyes? Is there a mini me in a little arm chair looking through a telescope or a screen? Is it up to you? Are you deciding when looking is happening or it just happens when it happens (causes and conditions) - thought self-organising? Have a proper look :))

It's definitely not something I decide to do. And to be honest, I don't quite know if it's a thought or this-ness. I think it's a thought about this-ness. Confusing as that seems to me.

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca,

I don’t quite know if it’s a thought or this-ness

Can looking be found as something? Is it a thing / a process / an object?
Or is there simply what is happening and sometimes a thought saying “I’m looking”?
Before the thought “I am looking” appears is anything missing?

I don’t decide to do it

Good. Now go further:
If you don’t decide it, who is doing it? Or does it just happen like seeing, hearing, thinking?
You’re trying to classify “is it thought or this?” But look:
Is there “this” and something inside it called “looking”?
Or is even “looking” just what is happening without needing a label?
Don’t try to figure it out. See if a “looker” can actually be found.

No, death isn't something that happens to someone or something. It's more But death does happen. What gets annihilated are thoughts, really. Anything material just transforms into some other material. And thoughts don't make a self. Only the illusion of a self. So when I think of it, what was I so afraid of? The end of thinking? When I put it that way, it seems silly.

How do you KNOW that? Is it something you experienced first-hand (DE)?
Be very careful here.
Material transforms?… Thoughts get annihilated?
Look directly.
Can you find “death”, “material”, “transformation” in direct experience?
Or are those ideas/thoughts/learned explanations appearing now?
What is actually here right now? There is seeing, hearing, …, thought. Anything else?
Can death be experienced now? Or is it only a thought about a future imagined scenario?
Same with “material”, “others” and “transformation” … Can those be found?
Or are they descriptions added after the fact?
Without referring to thought, is there anything here that is born, changes or dies?
Don’t answer from knowledge. Look only at what is actually present.
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hello Rali - Hope you're well. My responses are below.

Can looking be found as something? Is it a thing / a process / an object?
Or is there simply what is happening and sometimes a thought saying “I’m looking”?
Before the thought “I am looking” appears is anything missing?

I think we've got through this before, but I suppose it's not something that can be found, but it does still seem to be an intentional action. I know it's just something I do with a label applied after, but it doesn't seem that way.

If you don’t decide it, who is doing it? Or does it just happen like seeing, hearing, thinking?
You’re trying to classify “is it thought or this?” But look:
Is there “this” and something inside it called “looking”?
Or is even “looking” just what is happening without needing a label?

Yes, it's just happening. And good point about
"this" and "looking." I think I understand. The looking is just more thisness with thought applied. There is no looker. I don't know why I keep forgetting. :/

Or are they descriptions added after the fact?
Without referring to thought, is there anything here that is born, changes or dies?
Don’t answer from knowledge. Look only at what is actually present.

Well, no. They're thoughts/ideas about based on what I've learned. It's not anything I'll experience until I die. For now, it's just an imagined scenario. Let's hope I don't directly experience that anytime soon. :)

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca,

it seems to be an intentional action

First of all...
seems like / feels like = thought content
Nothing in DE is seems like or feels like - it's either here as clear as day, or not!

Look carefully. What is this sense of “intentional” exactly?
Check directly… Before the thought “I am looking” appears, is looking already happening?
You say:

it seems like I’m doing it

Look! Does the feeling prove there is a doer?
Or is it just another sensation interpreted as “me doing”

Let’s not think about “doing”, let’s test it.
Wait for the next thought.
Did you create it? Did you know what it would be before it appeared?
Or did it just… show up?

When it comes to intention… Raise your hand, but look very carefully! When exactly did the “decision” happen? Can you find the moment you chose it?
OR … Did the thought describe what was already happening – subtle in the beginning and then more pronounced?
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3

Even further… Did you choose the thought to raise your hand?
It still ‘feels like' there is a self that is the ‘chooser. So let’s have a look at this as it has to do with the sense of seeing.
Look on your right. Then look on your left. Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.
Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘blackness’).
So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘blackness’ if you close your eyes.
The question is: can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘blackness’?
Can you turn off seeing?
What did the 'chooser' choose?
Did a 'self' choose something?
If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Let’s test control again! Try this:
For the next 3 minutes only think pleasant thoughts
Can you do it? Or do thoughts come anyway?

Now look at all three - thoughts appear, intentions (aka still thoughts about choosing) appear, actions (aka sensations + thoughts about doing) happen. Where is the doer?
Is anything being controlled? Is anything being done?
Or is everything appearing / unfolding on its own?
Don’t answer quickly. Don’t rely on how it feels. Watch it happen, look for what is actually there.
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali - Apologies for the delay. It was another hectic day at work/home. My responses are below:

Nothing in DE is seems like or feels like - it's either here as clear as day, or not!

I think the issue (for purposes of this discussion) might be that it doesn't seem clear as day. I know you say that's thought content, but I genuinely don't know how to answer any other way when you ask.

Check directly… Before the thought “I am looking” appears, is looking already happening?

Yes, in that looking is just more this-ness with the label "looking" applied. But then why do you instruct me to look if it's something I'm not already doing? You say here "check directly." Are you telling me to be aware of this-ness? Oh wait, I see! Yes, you're telling me to be aware of this - my present experience. It's my thoughts that say "that was something I wasn't doing before, but I'm doing it now because she instructed me to do so."

Ah yes, this is a good point. The sense of intentionality (is that a word?) is an illusion. There's an action, then my mind tells a story/thought about intention after the fact.

Does the feeling prove there is a doer?
Or is it just another sensation interpreted as “me doing”

It definitely does not prove there is a doer. it's a sensation that thought applies "doing" to.

Did you create it? Did you know what it would be before it appeared?
Or did it just… show up?

No, I definitely didn't create it. it just showed up. This is something I've known for a long time. This scrambled my brain a bit. I need to sit with this because it's glitching.

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see?

No, there is just seeing.

What did the 'chooser' choose?
Did a 'self' choose something?

Oooohhhhhh I get it.

Let’s test control again! Try this:
For the next 3 minutes only think pleasant thoughts
Can you do it? Or do thoughts come anyway?

Ha! No, i tried and couldn't even do it for three seconds.

Where is the doer?
Is anything being controlled? Is anything being done?
Or is everything appearing / unfolding on its own?

Okay, okay I'm with you here. There is no doer doing the looking anymore than there is a seer directing my eyes to see. It just happens!

Wow, powerful session, Rali!

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca,
Good—this is a key point.

But then why do you instruct me to look if it's something I'm not already doing? You say here "check directly." Are you telling me to be aware of this-ness? Oh wait, I see! Yes, you're telling me to be aware of this - my present experience. It's my thoughts that say "that was something I wasn't doing before, but I'm doing it now because she instructed me to do so."

Before any instruction…is seeing already happening, is hearing already happening, is experience already happening?
Did my instruction create any of that? Or did it just point to what was already obvious – one thought stream (labelled “Rali”) affecting another (“Blanca’s”)?
Now check this… A thought appears “now I’m doing it”. Does that thought actually do anything? Or is it just commenting on what is already happening?
Nothing new is happening. There is no new “mode” called “looking.” There is just a new story forming, which reflects DE. (Thoughts self-organising)
So what is the instruction doing? Is it making something happen – seeing, hearing,…?
Or simply redirecting thought from stories to what is already here? (Mind being a good servant instead of bad master)
Before I said “look”, was THIS absent? Or was it already fully present?
No need to become aware. No need to do anything. Just "notice"… It was never not here. There is no Blanca / awareness / witness / Buddha / Brahman / Universe /... doing “looking”. There are just thoughts appearing with whatever is happening – sometimes about so called “looking” (DE) and sometimes about old patterns. That’s it! It’s not up to Blanca which thoughts would appear as she is not the thinker of these thoughts. In fact, she is just an illusion :)

There is no doer… it just happens!

Yes!! Typing is happening. Are you doing it or is typing just happening?
Did you choose each word before it appeared? Did you decide the exact timing of each keystroke? Or is it words appearing fingers moving together?
Same with this… A thought appears “I understand”. Did you create that thought or did it just show up?

I need to sit with this because it's glitching

That “glitching”, is it anything more than a sensation + thought? Or is there actually something breaking, something malfunctioning?

Is there something doing life or just life happening??
Don’t answer from memory of the exercise.
Look now :)).
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali - My responses below:

Before any instruction…is seeing already happening, is hearing already happening, is experience already happening?
Did my instruction create any of that? Or did it just point to what was already obvious – one thought stream (labelled “Rali”) affecting another (“Blanca’s”)?

Yes, all of those things are already happening. The instruction did not create that. And I like that description of thought streams impacting one another.

A thought appears “now I’m doing it”. Does that thought actually do anything? Or is it just commenting on what is already happening?

No, it doesn't do anything. Just commentary.

Or simply redirecting thought from stories to what is already here? (Mind being a good servant instead of bad master)
Before I said “look”, was THIS absent? Or was it already fully present?

No this-ness was aways there. And instruction isn't making something happen.

There is no Blanca / awareness / witness / Buddha / Brahman / Universe /... doing “looking”. There are just thoughts appearing with whatever is happening – sometimes about so called “looking”

This one landed. :)

Yes!! Typing is happening. Are you doing it or is typing just happening?
Did you choose each word before it appeared? Did you decide the exact timing of each keystroke? Or is it words appearing fingers moving together?
Same with this… A thought appears “I understand”. Did you create that thought or did it just show up?

No, I definitely don't choose the words beforehand. And I definitely don't do choose about which keys to type. That is automatic.

That “glitching”, is it anything more than a sensation + thought? Or is there actually something breaking, something malfunctioning?

It's just a sensation and thought. Or actually, it feels closer to an absence of thought.

And life is just happening, thank goodness.

B