Looking for a guide

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

What lovely questions. These are so precise in focusing on what's coming up and what's next and unwinding where I'm selfing. These are really useful, and the last few weeks have been so helpful and so appreciated.

Without adding a single thought… does the sensation stay exactly the same?
Or does it flicker, shift, pulse, change intensity, move location?

It flickers and moves, definitely.

Does the sensation intensify, stabilize into something more solid, become more “defined”?
What’s actually happening?
Is thought “refreshing” the sensation?
Or is thought:
naming it → fixing it → looping it → making it feel continuous

Sensation seems to be like watching a fire. It constantly changes, occasionally a large flame comes up, or a bunch of sparks, but constantly shifting sensations flowing through the body.

I am curious why sensations seem to need attention to process.

I do think thought refreshes the sensations, but I can see that it doesn’t do so in a very helpful way. I think there’s a difference between anger sensations at the moment something happens versus anger sensations when you think back on the thing that happened. I have a sense that when something happens in the moment, or when it is triggered, or when it spontaneously arises, that those sensations can be felt and will release themselves. If it's mind-led or thought-led, I don’t think the body can access the sensation in the same way and it can’t be released.

I often try to stay with a sensation, especially an unpleasant one, but I think this might be inadvertently adding thought to it. I end up imagining what the sensation was like when it first hit, and start hallucinating that on top of what’s already there, while reminding myself of the thoughts that first triggered the sensation. Staying with something, without adding thought is actually pretty difficult.

I think there’s also another part of me that gets quite bored staying with sensation and can only do so if it also makes up a story about the sensation. Motivation for meditation, or even awareness, comes from imagining that it’s fixing some perceived flaw. The sense of self involved in fixing/being fixed is alive and well… or at least seen.

At the same time, thoughts tend to trigger things that need resolution. If I relax and let my mind wander, in not very much time the thoughts will go to an area that feels unsettled, and produces a strong emotional response.

When sensation is left alone — truly alone — does it need to go away?
Or does it naturally move?

It naturally moves.

The mind and the self-improvement project like to interrupt here. A sensation comes up and it says “let’s fix this” and it grabs on and generates thoughts endlessly.

I’m curious about the difference between leaving things alone versus staying with them. Part of me very conscientiously stays with feelings, especially strong ones. I have questions about whether attention is needed to support releasing things. If anything, there might be too much attention on sensations (and accidentally, thought added to increase focus and clarity of the feeling). I’m wondering if I should relax that feeling more and add more ease to that practice.

So when grief about the world appears, is the world here? Or is it image + sensation + thought… here?

Image and sensation and thought.

This is a really interesting one that I’m going to do more work with - the assumption of others, the hallucination of being able to feel their pain, the overwhelm of the illusion of sharing in their suffering. In one sense, we all do, but at the same time, there’s just DE. This feels simultaneously blasphemous and freeing. There’s a little seeing but not clear seeing yet.

That sensation you called “grief” or “anger”, before the label lands… what is it?

Energy patterns. I’ve been playing with “how do I know I’m angry/frustrated/depressed” and once the label drops, sometimes the energy has direction, like a tightening jaw, or a lump in the throat that point to something the body wants. After a few seconds with the energy, these pass (unless refreshed by thought).

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie,
Good. Let’s cut through a few of the subtle confusions you’re touching.

I am curious why sensations seem to need attention to process.

No. That whole idea of processing, releasing, needing attention — look at it carefully:
Is that coming from sensation… or from thought trying to manage sensation?
When a sensation appears — before anything is done with it — is it incomplete? Is it stuck? Does it ask for help?
Or is it already moving, changing, alive?
You already saw:

When left alone, it naturally moves.

That’s the answer.

I think there’s a difference between anger sensations at the moment something happens versus anger sensations when you think back on the thing that happened. I have a sense that when something happens in the moment, or when it is triggered, or when it spontaneously arises, that those sensations can be felt and will release themselves. If it's mind-led or thought-led, I don’t think the body can access the sensation in the same way and it can’t be released.

Yes! Look very closely at this distinction you’re brushing up against — it’s an important one.
When something happens in the moment, there is a surge — heat, tightness, pressure, movement, maybe the jaw tightens, the chest contracts, energy is clearly alive. That’s what gets labeled “anger.”
Now watch what happens next. That wave passes — you’ve already seen it does. And then… Thought comes in: “that was anger”, “I’m still angry”, “this shouldn’t have happened”. And along with those thoughts, there are mental sensations - faint echoes of the original energy, imagined tension, recreated feeling (like the imaginary piece of chocolate)
But look carefully… Is that the same as the original surge? Or is it more like remembering a fire versus being in the fire?
So check this directly next time. When the initial energy passes… What is actually here?
Is there still raw, physical intensity? Or is it mostly thought + mental replay + subtle sensation?
And even more precisely… Without the thought “this is anger” what is left?
This is where things get sticky. The mind says “this is still happening”, but often what’s actually here is a memory/a narrative/a recreated echo - a big fat story. Not the original event. So don’t try to get rid of it., but just notice:
Is this alive, immediate sensation? Or is this thought + echo?

A sensation comes up and it says “let’s fix this” and it grabs on and generates thoughts endlessly.

Pause right there. Does a sensation actually say anything?
Or is there just a sensation, then a thought appearing that says “let’s fix this”
Split it cleanly:
Sensation appears (tightness, heat, pressure — silent, wordless)
Thought appears “this is a problem” , “let’s fix this”
More thoughts follow looping, planning, analyzing
Now look: Where is the one doing the grabbing?
Is there a sensation doing something? A thought, doing something?
Or just a sensation appearing, a thought appearing, more thought appearing
That feeling of “it grabs on and generates thoughts endlessly”, check it directly:
Is there actually something grabbing? Or is that another thought describing what’s happening?
Nothing is grabbing anything. There is no manager, fixer, controller. There is even no separation between thought and sensation without the labels.
So next time it happens, don’t try to stop it. Just slow it down and look:
What is actually doing something here? Can a sensation initiate a plan?

I’m curious about the difference between leaving things alone versus staying with them. Part of me very conscientiously stays with feelings, especially strong ones. I have questions about whether attention is needed to support releasing things. If anything, there might be too much attention on sensations (and accidentally, thought added to increase focus and clarity of the feeling). I’m wondering if I should relax that feeling more and add more ease to that practice.

You’re noticing something very important: “I try to stay with sensation… but I might be adding thought.”
Yes. “Staying with” can secretly become focusing, monitoring, recreating, remembering, trying to intensify, or trying to complete. That’s not staying. That’s interference. So check this difference very cleanly:
Staying (what the mind thinks it should do): is holding attention on it, keeping it in place, tracking it, and subtly controlling
Leaving alone (what actually happens) involves no effort to hold, no effort to push away, no effort to maintain, it comes, it moves, it goes.
So the real question is … When you “stay with it”… is there effort?
If yes — that’s thought. You said it yourself:

I end up imagining what it was like when it first hit…

Exactly. That’s not the sensation. That’s thought, recreating a memory and layering it on top of what is here. That’s why it feels like it doesn’t resolve, it loops, and it becomes sticky. Because it’s no longer direct.

Part of me gets bored staying with sensation.

Good. Look there.
Boredom = what?
Right now is boredom a problem? Or is it just another sensation + thought saying “this is boring”?
And more directly:
Who needs this to be interesting?

Thoughts trigger things that need resolution

Careful. Look very precisely:
When thought goes to something “unsettled” and sensation arise, Is it that something needs resolution… or just that sensation appeared?
That “needs resolution” is already a story/ a goal/ a project
What you actually have is sensation + thought about sensation. Nothing more. What is needed is not resolution but simple looking - not goal oriented, just simple observation of what is really here and what is not :). See the difference?
This is the most important line you wrote:

Energy patterns… and after a few seconds they pass (unless refreshed by thought).

Stay here. Don’t complicate this.
You’ve already seen the whole mechanism: sensation arises, it moves naturally, thought labels it, thought loops it, sensation appears continuous. Next time something strong comes up, don’t stay with it, don’t leave it, don’t process it, don’t fix it, or don’t understand it. Just check:
Right now — is anything being done to this sensation?
If yes — that’s thought. If no — watch what happens.
And finally:

There might be too much attention.

Yes.There is too much doing disguised as attention. So soften this completely. Just let it be exactly as it is — without touching it. Even “attention” can be touching.
Next time something arises, report exactly what happens when nothing interferes.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

That whole idea of processing, releasing, needing attention — look at it carefully:
Is that coming from sensation… or from thought trying to manage sensation?
When a sensation appears — before anything is done with it — is it incomplete? Is it stuck? Does it ask for help?
Or is it already moving, changing, alive?

That is definitely thought and definitely the way that the sense of self in the form of “manager” appears. There’s not just a thought, but a habit, an entire conditioned script. Do this right. Do it efficiently. Put in the effort and it’ll pay off in the future. Work hard now and fix everything here that’s wrong. And this hamster-wheel of a thought chain gets triggered every time an unpleasant thought or sensation comes up. I know the answer is to “just be” and not to “fix, heal, remove”. It’s clear, and a habit problem. Thanks for pointing it out.

Something else is happening too. I see the sensation and it feels personal, and it feels like my sensation. I looked around to see how it was owned, and then it became clear (again? I think I knew this but it felt like a slightly different angle on it) that it wasn’t mine. It was analogous to looking out a window at a tree, or a parking lot, or beach, and thinking the view was also mine. So while the sensation was in direct experience, the assumption of it being “mine” dropped.

I then looked at thoughts - it’s clear that they think themselves and are just from conditioning. I know I don’t control them, but they still feel personal and owned, like they’re my intellectual property. I looked around and couldn’t find where the assumption that connected thoughts to the sense of “mine.” The sense of ownership for sensations is starting to drop off. The sense of ownership for thoughts remains, but maybe it’s starting to be questioned somewhere.

Is that the same as the original surge? Or is it more like remembering a fire versus being in the fire?
So check this directly next time. When the initial energy passes… What is actually here?
Is there still raw, physical intensity? Or is it mostly thought + mental replay + subtle sensation?
And even more precisely… Without the thought “this is anger” what is left?

It’s like remembering the fire, or imagining the chocolate. It’s not the real sensation. And it feels like real anger burns clean in a way…. When it’s felt, it releases, and there’s no residue. But when it’s fed by thoughts, it’s never gone. It can’t leave; there’s a hook in the mind holding it in place. And the mind seems very capable of making the body experience unpleasant sensations like anger, but not of releasing them, and they cycle through, over and over, very annoyingly.

Is this alive, immediate sensation? Or is this thought + echo?

There are a number of thoughts + echos that cause suffering. I suppose if there is no sound to make a new echo, the reverberating sounds eventually die down.

Does a sensation actually say anything?
Or is there just a sensation, then a thought appearing that says “let’s fix this”

Yes, okay, good point, that’s a thought saying that.

Where is the one doing the grabbing?
Is there a sensation doing something? A thought, doing something?
Or just a sensation appearing, a thought appearing, more thought appearing

The mind is grabbing, the thoughts are initiating and starting a thought chain.

That feeling of “it grabs on and generates thoughts endlessly”, check it directly:
Is there actually something grabbing? Or is that another thought describing what’s happening?

There is a sense of "I" grabbing and "I" fixing.

I sit with the question of “who is trying to fix whom” quite often and the mind just spins. There’s a sense of self in the fixer and a sense of self in the fixee but they both just disappear when looked at.

So next time it happens, don’t try to stop it. Just slow it down and look:
What is actually doing something here? Can a sensation initiate a plan?

Yeah… I’ve been being much softer with this this week and letting sensations come and go. They’re not emergencies and they don’t have agendas or to-do lists. They don’t actually come with orders or instructions I need to follow. They are just sensations.

There’s some real resistance to sensations and wanting to “fix” them. I think a big part of me would rather suffer by wrestling with sensations and attempting to control them than just do nothing when they show up. It’s been actually really surprising to notice that this week. I would rather do something that involves clear suffering if it means that there are actions I can take. That sense of “doing” in the face of suffering is incredibly sticky. There’s been a lot of grief, an opening, and a huge release of energy over that this week. It was a blind spot for me, for sure.

You’re noticing something very important: “I try to stay with sensation… but I might be adding thought.”
Yes. “Staying with” can secretly become focusing, monitoring, recreating, remembering, trying to intensify, or trying to complete. That’s not staying. That’s interference. So check this difference very cleanly:
Staying (what the mind thinks it should do): is holding attention on it, keeping it in place, tracking it, and subtly controlling
Leaving alone (what actually happens) involves no effort to hold, no effort to push away, no effort to maintain, it comes, it moves, it goes.
So the real question is … When you “stay with it”… is there effort?
If yes — that’s thought.

I love this pointer. You summed up exactly where I am. So just stay here, but without effort.

(Part of me gets bored staying with a sensation) Boredom = what?
Right now is boredom a problem? Or is it just another sensation + thought saying “this is boring”?
And more directly:
Who needs this to be interesting?

Boredom is sensation and thought (a thought that tends to be believed, but really shouldn’t be).

I like the question of “who needs this to be interesting.” Who, indeed, is the one who has any preferences at all?

When thought goes to something “unsettled” and sensation arise, Is it that something needs resolution… or just that sensation appeared?
That “needs resolution” is already a story/ a goal/ a project
What you actually have is sensation + thought about sensation. Nothing more. What is needed is not resolution but simple looking - not goal oriented, just simple observation of what is really here and what is not :

This landed so hard right now, especially the part about creating stories, goals and projects. That is so obviously going in the wrong direction.

Right now — is anything being done to this sensation?

No. It’s just here.

There is too much doing disguised as attention. So soften this completely. Just let it be exactly as it is — without touching it. Even “attention” can be touching.

This is exactly it. Just letting it be. Creating space around it. Allowing, and it moves and shifts and expresses.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

This is exactly it. Just letting it be. Creating space around it. Allowing, and it moves and shifts and expresses.

Good. Now don’t turn this into understanding.
What is creating space? Is there actually something doing that?
Or is that another refined version of “I am handling this correctly now”
Look carefully. A sensation appears. Before any label, before “allowing”,” space”, “this is okay”, what is there? When you say “I let it be”, is there a sensation, a thought saying “I’m letting this be”? Or is there an actual entity doing something?
Find it. Not conceptually—right now.

There’s some real resistance to sensations and wanting to “fix” them. I think a big part of me would rather suffer by wrestling with sensations and attempting to control them than just do nothing when they show up.

Stop there.
Who would rather?
Not as a concept—look

They are not emergencies. They don’t have agendas.

Good. Now go one step further:
Does anything here need to relate to the sensation at all?
Not even “letting it be.” Because even “allowing” can be interference.
So check! Without doing anything, without allowing, without resisting, without watching, what happens to the sensation?
You already saw it:

It moves and shifts and expresses.

So what exactly was ever required?
A sensation appears. A thought appears. Is there anything managing this?
Or is “managing” just another thought appearing after the fact?
Don’t answer from memory. Look now. What is actually happening?
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for the questions. Thought provoking, and poking something that at times doesn’t want to be poked. I’ve been returning to this a lot this week, and it’s been really helpful.

Now don’t turn this into understanding.

Yeah…. There’s such grasping for understanding, for a path, for knowing where “I” am on the path and that there has been progress and that there is an end.

But there is no understanding. There is just this. And to see that you have to release the need for understanding and stop chasing the thing you’re chasing. Probably out of sheer utter exhaustion and not out of understanding that there is no understanding.

What is creating space? Is there actually something doing that?
Or is that another refined version of “I am handling this correctly now”
Look carefully. A sensation appears. Before any label, before “allowing”,” space”, “this is okay”, what is there? When you say “I let it be”, is there a sensation, a thought saying “I’m letting this be”? Or is there an actual entity doing something?

There was absolutely action, doing, and a self doing it, and trying to do it right. But that self was just a series of thoughts, and the urge to “do it right” was a thought-habit.

Who would rather? (wrestle with sensations instead of allowing)

The one who doesn’t want to release the dream of understanding. And that one is a thought - a thought that says “you can understand” and “understanding will set you free” and “when you understand you won’t suffer” and “if you do this really, really correctly you’ll understand” and “when Rali talks about seeing, she really means understanding.”

Does anything here need to relate to the sensation at all?
Not even “letting it be.” Because even “allowing” can be interference.
So check! Without doing anything, without allowing, without resisting, without watching, what happens to the sensation?

Nothing needs to actually go on with it. It doesn’t need to be coddled or comforted or anything.

I’ve been really looking at this all week, and today something shifted a bit. Instead of “being with” sensations - which involves contraction, focusing, some sort of control, and perhaps care - the focus has changed to awareness being aware. It feels like a dropping back, with no contraction. Thoughts are still there, sensations are still there, but they are arising in a way that doesn’t feel owned. The habits of “I need to deal with this correctly” comes up but it enters awareness without being grabbed. There’s space around it and it’s not believed.

I see how annoyingly simple this is and I’ve been told this 1000 times. I’ve also learned this before and benefited from this before, but perhaps a different layer is understanding this now, or maybe that’s a story.

And frustratingly, ironically (and perhaps it’s maybe funny?), this becomes another way of doing. The mind tries to control this, tries to claim this, says “I’m sinking back” and “I’m being awareness” and “I’m letting this be.” The urge to grasp and claim and control is strong.

So what exactly was ever required? (because sensations shift and move on their own).
A sensation appears. A thought appears. Is there anything managing this?
Or is “managing” just another thought appearing after the fact?

Managing and control are just thoughts and habits.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
Good. This is very close now. But see what’s happening right at the edge — thought is still trying to reposition itself in a more sophisticated role.

the focus has changed to awareness being aware. It feels like a dropping back, with no contraction. Thoughts are still there, sensations are still there, but they are arising in a way that doesn’t feel owned.

Stop. Don’t build a new seat (of the silent observer). Don’t imagine the next state to pursue.
What is “awareness being aware”?
Is there awareness and something it is aware of? Or is there simply sound, sensation, thought?
No second layer. Look again… A thought appears: “I’m dropping back”. A thought appears: “this is awareness”
Are those anything other than thoughts? More understanding?
There is even no separate sound, sensation or a thought to be aware of (without the labels) - just a whole/ seamless/ inseparable/ meaningless/ just THIS. Does THIS need anything to be aware of it in order to just be (here)? How is this known (that you need awareness to have THIS)?
This is the last hiding place - “I am no longer the doer… I am now the awareness.”
Same structure. New costume. So check:
Can you find anything that is “aware”… separate from what is appearing?
Or is that just a word added after the fact?
You already saw this:

Managing and control are just thoughts and habits.

Good. Now include this: “Being awareness” is also a thought.
So don’t go forward. Don’t stabilize anything. Don’t try to be “awareness aware of itself”. Without the thought “I am doing this right”/“I am aware”/“this is a shift”, what is here?
No position. No silent watcher. No manager. No awareness. Just this.
Stay there but not as a state. Just as what is already happening before anything is named. Report from there.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

I had the most stable, clearest, longest lasting glimpse yet the other day. It was really clear and very, very obvious. It didn’t come with any euphoria or anything; it was quite matter of fact.

I started with that “sinking back into awareness” and noticed the flow of everything that just is. How thoughts are part of direct experience, how sights and sounds just appear in nowhere. How a bird in the distance wasn’t a fundamentally different experience than the tingling of my feet, or the weight in my leg. And then awareness just dissolved, on its own and there was just experience arising. The self, the seer, the experiencer - none of those made sense anymore. It felt really obvious and really everywhere. It was simple, and not that special. There was also no doubt at all about what I was seeing.

Since then, the memory is really clear and there is a very clear understanding here of what is being looked for, but the experience hasn’t reappeared. Even writing this now has the frustrating quality of imagining a chocolate.

What is “awareness being aware”?
Is there awareness and something it is aware of? Or is there simply sound, sensation, thought?

Awareness requires a self, so it doesn’t exist. There’s only DE.

It does seem like perhaps a helpful stepping stone. Having awareness helped to see the managing/controlling thoughts as just thoughts appearing and as part of DE. That seemed like a helpful part of allowing the mind to let go of that control, and allowing awareness to drop.

A thought appears: “I’m dropping back”. A thought appears: “this is awareness”
Are those anything other than thoughts? More understanding?

Yeah, this is exactly the problem. Control and managing can re-emerge as awareness very, very easily.

Awareness can also be a really sticky concept. Is it something a person is? Or is all of DE aware and stepping into it is participating in awareness and merging with the flow? And what is the point of knowing or defining what awareness is? It is not a particularly useful pointer and instead seems more like an intellectual exercise.

Does THIS need anything to be aware of it in order to just be (here)? How is this known (that you need awareness to have THIS)?

Awareness doesn’t need anything to be aware of itself. But the mind sure AF wants to be aware of awareness. Like, really really badly. I think “having” awareness is a form of control. If awareness can be turned on, controlled, owned then it allows the self to have power and not have to face the real fear of actually… there is no self. There is no control, There is no awareness.

Even going into awareness, there’s such an attempt at control, at creating a path so that “I” can control the process and control how it unfolds. It’s a way of not letting go. Awareness feels like a concept that is holding a ton of resistance to what is.

Can you find anything that is “aware”… separate from what is appearing?
Or is that just a word added after the fact?

No, nothing is aware. Awareness is just a thought.

Without the thought “I am doing this right”/“I am aware”/“this is a shift”, what is here?

There’s DE. And resistance and control are part of DE.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
Good. Now don’t turn this into something you “had.”

It hasn’t reappeared.

Look carefully. What hasn’t reappeared?
That clear, obvious, no-self seeing, is that something that comes and goes?
Or is it a moment where thought stopped interfering, followed by thought saying “it’s gone”
Look right now (not from memory)! Is there a self anywhere? An experiencer anywhere? Something aware of this? Or is that only claimed after by thought?
You’re doing something subtle. You’re comparing a memory of clarity with what is here now, and concluding “this isn’t it”. But that comparison is thought. So check:
Without referring to that memory, what is missing right now?
There’s DE. And resistance and control are part of DE.
Good. Now go one step further… That resistance, does it say “I am a problem”? Or does that come from thought?

I have a clear understanding of what is being looked for

No! That’s the mind trying to turn this into a target / a state / something repeatable
But what you saw was that there is no one to find anything. There is no state to return to.
SEE! There is no past, no glimpse, no comparison. Just this.
Look very directly! Is there anything here that is not simply what is appearing?
Is there anything missing — before thought says something is missing?
Stay there with that. Don’t go back to the memory. Answer from what is here, now.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Morning. Hope you’re doing well. I saw a grey whale AND a pod of orcas today - clearly a lucky sign. :)

What hasn’t reappeared?
That clear, obvious, no-self seeing, is that something that comes and goes?
Or is it a moment where thought stopped interfering, followed by thought saying “it’s gone”
Look right now (not from memory)! Is there a self anywhere? An experiencer anywhere? Something aware of this? Or is that only claimed after by thought?

It’s gone. There’s no self, no experiencer. It’s clear that these are thoughts.

The obviousness and the profoundness and the sense of freedom is what comes and goes. And it doesn’t really come and go; it’s like the sky - always there (or I guess, not there - there’s really no such thing as the sky, really) but sometimes it’s cloudy and the blue isn’t visible.

In this metaphor, thoughts are the clouds and they don’t actually affect the sky in any way, but they do affect the direct experience of the sky.

What I think you’re pointing at is that any denial of this is thought-based. Thoughts flow in and out (like clouds) and cannot affect the sky. Grasping at a cloud that says “it’s gone” is foolish. Let thoughts flow and don’t mistake them for the sky.

Without referring to that memory, what is missing right now?

I know the answer is “nothing is missing” and “anything that is missing is just a thought/expectation/comparison.”

Awareness is growing that there is only this (as you keep saying) and that, really, genuinely, there is only this. There isn’t past or future. That’s a concept. It isn’t experienced. It’s really not. Comparisons rely on time. Expectations rely on time. None of these can actually really work.

That resistance, does it say “I am a problem”? Or does that come from thought?

I like this a lot. My practice has been evolving in this direction over the last few weeks. Rather than trying to get rid of resistance, or control, or the self-improvement urge, just noticing and welcoming those parts in. They’re just part of what’s here, part of the conditioning. Acknowledging this has been really helpful… they just do what they do, and they’ll eventually unwind. It’s been seen that they aren’t a problem.

That’s the mind trying to turn this into a target / a state / something repeatable
But what you saw was that there is no one to find anything. There is no state to return to.
SEE! There is no past, no glimpse, no comparison. Just this.
Look very directly! Is there anything here that is not simply what is appearing?
Is there anything missing — before thought says something is missing?

“There is no state to return to” hits quite hard.

And nothing is missing. Time is a thought that comes loaded with a lot of baggage. It’s a sticky, tricky thought as well.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie,
Grey whale and orcas? Clearly reality is showing off. :)
This is very clear:

There’s no self, no experiencer. It’s clear that these are thoughts.

Good. Stay with the simplicity of that. Don’t measure it by obviousness, profundity, freedom, or any other flavour. Those are weather. The seeing is not the blue sky. The feeling of obviousness is weather too.
Even “clouds affecting the direct experience of the sky” is worth checking. Is there actually a sky behind clouds, in DE? Or just cloud-colour, light, movement, thought saying “sky is hidden”?
Same here.
There is no hidden no-self state behind thoughts. There is no clear place to return to. There is only this appearance — thought, sound, sensation, colour — and no self in any of it.
You saw it:

“There is no state to return to” hits quite hard.

Yes. So when thought says “it was clearer before,” check: Where is “before”? Where is “clearer”? Where is the one who had it?
All thought. And yes, time is sticky because time allows the whole self-project to rebuild: “I had it.” “I lost it.” “I will stabilize it.” I practice.” I’m on a path.” Without time, what happens to Lanie?
Right now, before past/future loads:
Is anything missing?
Is anything waiting to complete this?
Is there anyone here who could return to anything?
Just this.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Good. Stay with the simplicity of that (that it's clear there is no self). Don’t measure it by obviousness, profundity, freedom, or any other flavour. Those are weather.

I love this. Obviousness and clarity and other flavours are thoughts. They’re opinions about experience and not experience itself.

The seeing is not the blue sky. The feeling of obviousness is weather too.
Even “clouds affecting the direct experience of the sky” is worth checking. Is there actually a sky behind clouds, in DE? Or just cloud-colour, light, movement, thought saying “sky is hidden”?

I think what you’re saying is that my metaphor of the blue sky and the clouds was not quite right. A better metaphor is that there just is sky / clouds / rain / stars / something different all the time. A blue sky behind it all is just a belief. It’s not what is.

And clarity is just weather and seeking is weather and understanding and not understanding are also weather.

If there’s a shift, the shift is in NOT looking for the sky and just being with whatever is here. It’s in not trying to rearrange the clouds.

Where is “before”? Where is “clearer”? Where is the one who had it?

Before/after, comparisons, expectations are all thoughts and aren’t what is here. These are all thoughts.

Without time, what happens to Lanie?

Lanie is a label for a container, more or less.

Time is kinda sticky! It’s not here and as soon as the concept comes to mind, SO MANY thoughts and beliefs and expectations and opinions come with it.

And it really is something that causes selfing. With time, Lanie is the constant, the thing that stays permanently even as every cell turns over, as beliefs come and go, as values shift, and as relationships change. With time, there could potentially be a Lanie. And without time, there can only be this.
The idea of time is starting to unwind a little. The amount of identity felt in thoughts that represent myself in the past is shifting, along with the feelings of anxiety or hope that are felt for the self who is imagined to exist in the future.

Is anything missing?
Is anything waiting to complete this?
Is there anyone here who could return to anything?

No… this just is.

I can see it. It’s all a lot less exotic than I’d expected. I’d hoped it was some sort of fancy understanding “out there” somewhere but it isn’t. I think the last many months of conversations can be summed up with you saying “look right here” and me saying “but what about over there” and you saying “nope, right here” and back and forth and back and forth.

You are a very patient person! And I appreciate it. Thank you for our conversations. They’ve been really meaningful and really helpful and the clarity is increasing, day by day.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie,
This is beautifully clear. And yes, that’s basically the whole dialogue:
You:

What about over there?

Maybe this over there?

But surely there’s something hidden…

And over and over: Look here. Only here. Not because “here” is spiritually special, but because nothing else is ever actually found. And now you’re seeing it directly:

Clarity is weather.

Seeking is weather.

Understanding and not understanding are weather.

Exactly. Even the thought “I finally got it” …is weather.
And “Maybe I’m losing it”… also weather. None of it points to a self.

If there’s a shift, the shift is in NOT looking for the sky and just being with whatever is here.

Yes!!! Not rearranging clouds. No looking for blue skies. Not manufacturing openness. Not maintaining awareness. Not stabilizing a state. Just this.
And notice… Nothing became mystical. Nothing became cosmic. Nothing became special.
The ordinary was never ordinary because there was never anyone outside it evaluating it. Just sound, colour, sensation, thought - life unfolding without an owner.

Without time, there can only be this.

Good. That cuts the root very deeply. The self needs time a past to come from, a future to get to, a path to travel, progress to measure.
Without that framework, what remains?
Not “Lanie awakening.” Just this appearing.
Keep looking at time - not philosophically, not as an idea – but very directly.
Can you experience yesterday? Five minutes ago? Tomorrow morning?
Or are there only thoughts, images, sensations appearing now?
A thought says “I’ve been struggling for weeks.” Okay.
Where are those weeks in DE? Can they be touched? Seen? Located?
Or is there only a present sensation plus a present thought ABOUT weeks?
Without time, what happens to healing, progress, regression, “my journey”, “I’m getting better”? Do those survive without memory + projection?
Also notice this… The self is not experienced continuously. It’s reconstructed again and again through memory.
A thought says “This happened to me.”/ “I was like this.”/ “I became this.”/ “I will become that.” And continuity is assumed. But between those thoughts… Where is Lanie?
And another thing to look at… When a painful sensation appears, thought says “This has always been here.”/ “This will never end.” Is that true in DE?
Or is there only this sensation now and thought adding a timeline?
You don’t need to deny practical clock-time. Meetings happen. Flights happen. Food cooks.
The pointer is subtler. Psychological time is where selfing breeds comparison, hope, regret, anticipation, becoming, “not there yet”. So next time suffering appears, look immediately:
Without the story of past/future…what is actually wrong right now?
And don’t answer quickly. Really look.

The clarity is increasing, day by day.

Maybe. Maybe not. :) But more importantly… The compulsion to turn experience into a self-project is weakening. That’s the real unwinding. Not becoming special. Not becoming permanently peaceful. Not becoming enlightened. Just less fighting with what already is. And that simplicity is so ordinary the mind keeps overlooking it.
Yet it’s been here the whole time.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Apologies for taking forever to write back to you! Long week. Probably. That’s just a thought.

The self needs time; a past to come from, a future to get to, a path to travel, progress to measure.
Without that framework, what remains?

It seems a little silly to think of something as a journey or a path - these things are only ever stories.

The creation of a journey is a really strong habit of mind.

Can you experience yesterday? Five minutes ago? Tomorrow morning?
Or are there only thoughts, images, sensations appearing now?

Just thoughts. Pretty amazing how reflexively I identify with these thoughts and claim them as mine and things that have happened or might happen to “me.”

I can see that this is true, but it hasn’t quite dropped, in that clear obvious way yet. I remember when I realized that the hearing and the heard weren’t distinct and it felt hilariously obvious. Time is still something that I can see through when I specifically look, but the conditioning is still strong and thick.

Where are those weeks in DE? Can they be touched? Seen? Located?
Or is there only a present sensation plus a present thought ABOUT weeks?
Without time, what happens to healing, progress, regression, “my journey”, “I’m getting better”? Do those survive without memory + projection?

Absolutely not. There really is just this and thoughts about this, opinions about how much “this” there has been and whether it is too much or not enough, and what that means about the self who apparently caused the “this” to be and what that self should try harder to do differently to get a better “this” in the presumed, imaginary future.

A thought says “This happened to me.”/ “I was like this.”/ “I became this.”/ “I will become that.” And continuity is assumed. But between those thoughts… Where is Lanie?

That Lanie is a thought too. Maybe less a thought than an assumption. Stories like “I was… then I became….” are always created retrospectively and the character who wen from point A to point B is a thought, invented at a different point in time, to serve the purposes of other thoughts.

When a painful sensation appears, thought says “This has always been here.”/ “This will never end.” Is that true in DE?
Or is there only this sensation now and thought adding a timeline?

DE can never provide an accurate picture of the length of a sensation. And when we look at sensations, we see ebbs and flows and shifts and changes, so anything that says “it’s always been this way” is pretty suspect. It’s thought adding a timeline.

I feel like there’s a difficulty here between seeing between the icon on the desktop and the DE. There’s some thoughts like “I’ve been struggling with depression since March” - an icon on a screen, perhaps useful to tell a medical professional or whoever, but not DE.

And the DE shows significant ebbs and flows, sometimes for stretches of several days, where depression symptoms completely evaporate. (That last sentence was obviously not DE). I think I keep looking at the DE and expecting it to make the timeline story of the depression or the foot untrue… and I think that’s the wrong place to look, but I can’t quite find the right place to look.

I can see whatever is happening, whether it be painful or not, is just happening. I can see the story of “the pain has been happening for two months” is a story, and not a particularly helpful one. I just don’t know what to do with that information. Getting rid of it or ignoring the story seems like a form of denial, like deleting your mail icon on the desktop.

Without the story of past/future…what is actually wrong right now?

Nothing.