I could use some help :)

[foo]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I am convinced (intellectually) that there is no self. Self is just a concept, a useful one to navigate society. I have somewhat looked within, and cannot find a self. No doer just doing. No seer just seeing. I am less reactive these days. Seldom triggered. But there is no shift. I wish I actually saw through the illusion.

What are you looking for at LU? To see through the illusion of a separate permanent self. Best case, a fellowship that can help me achieve this. Maybe point the way. Worst case, some friends made along the way. Don't have particularly high expectations.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Illumination. Seeing more clearly what reality is. Knowing the truth. Or lowering my expectations, at least a stimulating and thought provoking conversation? Lowering further, just a better understanding of myself is nice lol.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Started seeking in late 2024. Learned to do some meditation. No particular deep knowledge of any one practice, but have read here and there.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[foo]

Thank you Stacy!!! I have read the disclaimer.

How will you change?

The assumption is it is not about changing, but just seeing through the illusion. Then there is no-one to change.

How will life change?

Practically, how the world is experienced and how the world experiences me will change. But they are all assumptions. I honestly have no idea. Maybe less reactive, but I am already less reactive now, just by pondering the lack of permanent or separate self.

What will be different?

Would be hilarious if my friends said "I don't know what it is, but you seem different".

What is missing?

I wouldn't say anything is missing right now. It's more like I know the truth, yet the supposed shift never occurred. There is definitely a yearning. Or a feeling something is off.

What would you like for me to call you?

Foo

What time zone are you in, please?

Pacific timezone (PST)

[Anastacia42]

Hi Foo

Yes, we are looking for a shift in perception.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving

[foo]

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

It's a bit hard to be precise here. There's some anxiety in my body. Yet also some relief. I think a separate self brings about quite a bit of suffering. I believe this separate self is a useful mental construct. Evolution produced this because being able to identify with a self and use it to connect the past to the present to the future, if very helpful for survival. In modern times, not that useful anymore.

[Anastacia42]

Good & very thorough. Remind me to give you a pointer about time later. Right now, let's get some basics.


This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[foo]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

100% clear about direct experience. Deciphering the experience will be harder :)

[Anastacia42]

Here is how to practice.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[foo]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

seeing light brown color of coffee = color
smells like caramel = smell
slurping swallowing sound = sound
tastes sweet with a hint of bitter = taste
warm liquid in mouth = sensation
thoughts about drinking coffee and labeling experiences = thought

seeings words in a book = image
feeling the pages = sensation
hearing the flipped page = sound
thoughts about the words = thought

see the laptop screen, words appearing = image
sitting on the bed, pressure on my back and legs = sensation
typing on keyboard = sensation
hearing the keys being tapped = sound
hearing an inner sound = sound
thoughts if I am doing the exercise right = thought

[Anastacia42]

Good. You've got it. Now next:


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving

[foo]

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Neither was truer than the other.

2. What is here without labels?

Everything is still here, without labels. Everything is the same, with or without labels.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels do not affect the experience, just describe it.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

No differences in the body was noticed.

[Anastacia42]

Okay ...

1. No, the second is truer without the "I," which doesn't exist.

2. Not exactly. Direct Experience. Remember the previous pointers?

3. Yes. Good.

4. There is tension in your gut & maybe other places.


Here us a pointer to support that awareness.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... 1&start=45


Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[foo]

OMG you are so right.

When "I" is used, there is untruth because "I" does not exist. Lying should result in a discernible sensation in the body.

What is found?

There is tightness in my stomach. Pain is experienced too, but is pain an interpretation of a sensation?

Do you see that?

"Uncomfortable" comes up too. Which "I" can see is definitely an interpretation of a sensation, not the sensation itself.

Thank you

[Anastacia42]

You're welcome!

Here's smother aspect to check.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Loving

[foo]

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

A word in red color is seen, the word spells G-R-E-E-N, another known color

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

The color red is experienced.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

The label does not have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. The label suggests the color 'green'?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

Does not seem to be any association, seems to be just a label.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

The redness is not affected.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Labels have no affect on reality whatsoever.

Let me know what is SEEN.

The color red.