Dissolving the concept of non-self into direct realisation

[Noro]

Hi Nicky,

Yes, there is a lot of value in daily postings, so much as is possible, and I am so glad that you have had some profound experiences of well-being at unexpected moments that can come from this direct inquiry.


CUP EXERCISE - TWO TYPES OF THOUGHTS

Think of a cup, get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. 
Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp or touch that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a "real' cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) 'real'?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising content of thought.
The presence of thoughts cannot be denied, however the contents, what the thoughts are about, are not 'real', they are interpretations overlaid onto the direct experience.
Can you see this?


Now try the same exercise with a bar of chocolate or something you know will bring a body response when thinking about it.
Can you physically grasp or touch that image of a bar of chocolate?

Now imagine yourself eating a piece of chocolate?
Are either of the above two imaginings more 'real' than the other?
Was there a body response to one or both of the two imaginings?
If yes, let go of the mental image and bring your full attention to be with the body sensations for a while.
Let them be, just as they are....simply sensations.

Let me know how you got on.

Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Hi Rowena,

Now, can you physically grasp or touch that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

The image is relatively clear, but of course it’s not graspable. No actual tea can be drunk from it, only (again) imagined tea.

Is there a "real' cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) 'real'?

The cup is just a (vague) image. There’s nothing actually there, just a mental model. It performs no physical function.

The presence of thoughts cannot be denied, however the contents, what the thoughts are about, are not 'real', they are interpretations overlaid onto the direct experience.
Can you see this?

Yes, this is clear. The cup is a thought.

Can you physically grasp or touch that image of a bar of chocolate?

I used an image of a bowl of my favourite crisps to make it evoke more of a response. I cannot, unfortunately, grasp any of the chippies.

Now imagine yourself eating a [crisp]?
Are either of the above two imaginings more 'real' than the other?
Was there a body response to one or both of the two imaginings?

Although there was more of a bodily response (salivation, appetite, craving), none of the two was more real than the other. The latter only gave me more discomfort, even though it was just as imagined as the former. Quite funny, actually, how often this type of imagination evokes such suffering while it’s just as ‘fake’ as thinking about an innocuous cup. Nice to practice seeing this constructing of feeling happen in response to a thought.
Thank you.

Nicky

[Noro]

Hello Nicky,

Although there was more of a bodily response (salivation, appetite, craving), none of the two was more real than the other. The latter only gave me more discomfort, even though it was just as imagined as the former. Quite funny, actually, how often this type of imagination evokes such suffering while it’s just as ‘fake’ as thinking about an innocuous cup. Nice to practice seeing this constructing of feeling happen in response to a thought.

Yes! And for 'me', watching this seeming 'entanglement' or looping between body response (sensations) and thinking has become a fascinating past-time! :)


OBSERVING THOUGHTS

The Direct experience of thought is also very important in the seeing through the self illusion. Take your time and really work through this exercise, if you like, it can be helpful to get a piece of paper and write it as it comes and in the flow of questioning and looking, clarity comes.

Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice any thoughts arising.
Just let them appear as and when they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

What is a thought made of?

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

Can a thought think another thought?

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?

Please answer ALL the questions.
Look as many times as it is possible during the day even for a few seconds.

Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Hi again,

And for 'me', watching this seeming 'entanglement' or looping between body response (sensations) and thinking has become a fascinating past-time! :)

Ha! I can imagine. It’s wild.

OBSERVING THOUGHTS

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

They just appear. I have no clue where they come from, they just come. They dissolve, or get replaced, or become other thoughts to follow up the earlier one.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No. There’s no conscious choice happening, only the awareness of a thought having already appeared.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No.. I mean even when I “forcefully” try to think of something, it’s still not “me” who chooses the subject to think about. It just kind of pops up. That “I” chose it can only be the afterthought.

Can you predict your next thought?

Not at all. I can’t even truly predict what I’m writing here.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

I wish!

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

Again, I wish! I can only notice them after the fact and guide them elsewhere. But not specifically towards something. Just a different general direction. I don’t know how else to explain it, but there is some agency in what I’m thinking, but only very mildly. For instance, I’m trying to make it a habit to not get lost in negative spirals of thought. So, when “I” catch myself (which also happens without me doing anything, really), I can sort of choose to remember to guide my thoughts in the direction of more helpful stories. But not specifically which, or when, or how... Just... a slight push?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No, that isn’t possible. Although, when the thought of “don’t think about the pink elephant” appears, it does become impossible to not think about the pink elephant. But the content of the thought isn’t under my control, nor that the thought of “don’t think about x” comes up at all. So, no, even that is just an illusion of control.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Definitely not. Again, I wish! Wanting to not think about something makes it 100% more likely to appear.

What is a thought made of?

I have no idea. Nothing I can point to or grasp, or visualise. It isn’t made of anything, it just happens. It’s not physical as far as I can find.

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

A thought can’t do anything. It has no way to do anything, because it doesn’t consist of anything.

Can a thought think another thought?

Again, a thought can’t do anything. So, it also can’t think. A thought just appears and disappears, and there’s another thought that follows.

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?

There’s still this thought that there must be something to be aware of the thoughts coming and going. If that’s not me, then what is noticing? What is this? There’s only what’s happening, and when I try to find said I, there’s only a thought. Nothing to point to. It’s infuriating, confusing, I want to scream. WHAT IS THIS?? HOW? How is all this just happening without anything being in control? Why am I typing these words and not others? It’s ridiculous! There’s awareness, but nobody to be aware. It just is. Is that it? Is this really all there is? Gosh this is strange.
This was awesome, thank you Rowena!
I need some time to let this all sink in for a while again.

Wishing you well,

Nicky

[Noro]

Hi Nicky,

I'm glad there was a lot to explore with the last exercise. I think we will return to it again later on, but in the meantime, here are some reflections that I hope will be helpful.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

Again, I wish! I can only notice them after the fact and guide them elsewhere. But not specifically towards something. Just a different general direction. I don’t know how else to explain it, but there is some agency in what I’m thinking, but only very mildly. For instance, I’m trying to make it a habit to not get lost in negative spirals of thought. So, when “I” catch myself (which also happens without me doing anything, really), I can sort of choose to remember to guide my thoughts in the direction of more helpful stories. But not specifically which, or when, or how... Just... a slight push?

Your answer has brought up a couple of things worth looking at.
A belief is a thought, but a thought is not a belief. Beliefs have 'personal baggage'.
Thoughts in themselves are not necessarily painful, negative or fearful, they only are when they are believed or identified with and this directs us to what is going on in the body.

So when painful thoughts that you would like to avoid or guide away arise, you can take a moment to look at what else is happening that made the thought painful or negative. You can look at how that thought made you FEEL? And then go to the body and be with the sensations arising.

The other alternative is as you wrote: "I can sort of choose to remember to guide my thoughts in the direction of more helpful stories"
But are 'you' guiding them away? Is there an actual 'you' choosing to do anything with the thoughts?


What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

A thought can’t do anything. It has no way to do anything, because it doesn’t consist of anything.

YES!

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?

There’s still this thought that there must be something to be aware of the thoughts coming and going. If that’s not me, then what is noticing? What is this? There’s only what’s happening, and when I try to find said I, there’s only a thought. Nothing to point to.

YES! No thing to point to!

It’s infuriating, confusing, I want to scream. WHAT IS THIS?? HOW? How is all this just happening without anything being in control? Why am I typing these words and not others? It’s ridiculous!

For 'the mind' this is very confusing. This is more than a simple intellectual understanding going on here. You want to scream... Well then,,, SCREAM!! Go and be with the body sensations and allow them to be shaken out!

There’s awareness, but nobody to be aware. It just is. Is that it? Is this really all there is? Gosh this is strange.

Yes, that is a perfect way to put it!

SIT IN A RELAXED POSITION WITH EYES OPEN.
Focus on the visual field in front of you.
Keeping a relaxed gaze allow all labels to drop.
Now ask yourself:

What is here without thought?

What do you find?



BUTTCHAIR

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just be with the sensations.

Sink into that noticing. Notice how it FEELS.

Report that here.


Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you for the extra exercises!

Thoughts in themselves are not necessarily painful, negative or fearful, they only are when they are believed or identified with and this directs us to what is going on in the body.

YES! Thank you for the reminder. Of course thoughts don't actually have any particular quality to them. I only notice the ones that "stick" to held beliefs.

The other alternative is as you wrote: "I can sort of choose to remember to guide my thoughts in the direction of more helpful stories"
But are 'you' guiding them away? Is there an actual 'you' choosing to do anything with the thoughts?

No, there's just remembering and what happens after remembering. It's strange, but I was thinking about and discussing this very thing just now while walking my dog with my wife. How utterly rediculous it all is that there's no one there to really choose anything. Why do certain teachings resonate, get remembered and followed up while other teachings don't? There may have been a "me" that follows a very extremist religion and there would be nothing "I" could do about it. But there's just what's happening now and I'm not following an extremist religion. No me choosing any of it, really. It's wild how much we attribute to our own "free will". The why's come up a lot lately. The wonder.

SIT IN A RELAXED POSITION WITH EYES OPEN.

What is here without thought?

There's just everything that the senses pick up. Including thoughts. It's all very still and my body feels relaxed. Just hearing and seeing, sensations in and on the body.. Very pleasant. Just what's there, no control.

BUTTCHAIR

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.
Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

There's pressure, a change in temperature, but no "my butt". There are only the sensations. I need to mentally construct "my butt" for it to exist. I can feel the chair, but only because of my butt. They are dependent on each other right now.

Sink into that noticing. Notice how it FEELS.

I just feel the sensations of my body. It feels warm and at ease. No inner tension.

With care,

Nicky

[Noro]

Hi Nicky,

PALM FLIPPING EXERCISE

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and EACH TIME inquire/contemplate: How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control it?

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening?


Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Hi Rowena,

I've been really stretched and didn't find the time and space to do the exercise yet. Just wanted to let you know I'm planning on responding tomorrow evening!

Thank you!

[Noro]

Hi Nicky,

Thanks for letting me know!

Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Good morning Rowena,

PALM FLIPPING

EACH TIME inquire/contemplate: How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?

There are thoughts, but they don’t control the exact decision to flip over the palm. I could think “palm up”, but nothing happened. The palm rotating upwards was happening independently of the thought.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, it’s like my hand just flips over. I couldn’t find the “decision-maker”.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I don’t know. I think it’s just a sudden response to remembering what exercise I'm doing, or seeing my hand palm up. Just stimuli triggering the 'decision'.

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Yeah that doesn't happen. No amount of thinking about it is going to move my hand. The thought that "I decided to flip my hand" comes after.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Nothing. My right hand was going up automatically. Maybe just habit.

Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No.

Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening?

It's very clear that thoughts don't have any control over anything. They just come up to "save the day" with telling a story that conveys some sort of control. But it's not true. There is no control, just response and habit.

Thank you again Rowena!

Have a great day,

Nicky

[Noro]

Hello Nicky,

Here is another one!

DRINKS EXERCISE - CHOICE
The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

Have Fun!

Rowena

[infinicky]

Good morning,

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities did just appear. I didn’t control which qualities came up. The preferences were also just habits of thought. For instance: I have a cappuccino and a glass of water in front of me and I prefer the taste of the cappuccino, but I also have a habit of trying to go for the healthier option, so there the water “won”. But I didn't know the water won until after I had sipped it after the count-down. I expected myself to have gone with the coffee, but I didn't know for sure! Funny.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

No, I just read the next line after my mind became bored and the qualities and pros and cons stopped showing up as readily. So, I was ready to move on, but it wasn’t me really.
It was strange to notice the tension around the counting down though, because I has no clue which of the two I was going to grab. It was kind of exciting but also confusing and scary. I was afraid I was going to pick the wrong one, as if it was some kind of exam! Kind of hilarious. That was also just a response to things that I’ve experienced before, where counting down added pressure to a situation. Also that I didn’t know which drink that same I was going to pick... WILD! And hilarious.

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

No. It just happens.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

No, until I picked up the water I was completely unaware which of the drinks I was going to go for. No amount of thinking would influence that choice. Only after I took a sip, did the choice make sense to me: the mind just started filling in why I chose this. As though it had consciously chosen this way in a culculated manner! Really hilarious to see the mind in action after the fact like that.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

No, a feeling has no agency or capability to act. All I felt was a kind of pressure building up in my whole body, and then that pressure releasing after grabbing one of the cups. I found no ‘feeling of choice’ between those sensations.

Thank you so much Rowena!

Have a good day,

Nicky

[Noro]

Hello Nicky,

It was strange to notice the tension around the counting down though, because I has no clue which of the two I was going to grab. It was kind of exciting but also confusing and scary. I was afraid I was going to pick the wrong one, as if it was some kind of exam! Kind of hilarious. That was also just a response to things that I’ve experienced before, where counting down added pressure to a situation. Also that I didn’t know which drink that same I was going to pick... WILD! And hilarious.

I love the way you are so tuned in to all the subtle goings-on!


FRIEND/STRANGER

Bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."

Then bring up a thought about a character labeled "stranger."

Compare these thoughts.

Is there a difference in these thoughts?

Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Now, bring up a thought about a character labeled "friend."

After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me.”

Is there a difference?

Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character?"
Let me know what is found.


Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Dear Rowena,

Thanks again!

FRIEND/STRANGER

Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

They feel different in the body, because the friend evokes warm feelings and the stranger doesn't right now. The thoughts are still only thoughts, though. The content leads to treating the thoughts differently, but they just remain thoughts.
I tried thinking of the friend while labeling them stranger and vice versa, which was confusing and brought up more bodily sensations of tightness and warmth, but I could see that the thoughts are just there, passing by. I don't control the contents of what I think or who I conjured up. They are kind of "flat" in and of themselves, but when I grasp at them to be true/untrue, then I start feeling things.

FRIEND/ME

Is there a difference?
Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character?"

There is only a difference in how easy it is to believe things about "me". But I could also make up random things I know not to be true (e.g. "I'm a molerat") and that made it more clear for me to see that they really are just thoughts. It's nothing special at all, only getting "sucked into them" creates difficulty.

I'm finding it difficult to stay this mindful, though. It's like as soon as I stop really looking, I'm immediately drawn in again and become reactive to the content. If I practice looking in this way, will that become less?

Have a great day!

Nicky

[Noro]

Hi Nicky,

They feel different in the body, because the friend evokes warm feelings and the stranger doesn't right now. The thoughts are still only thoughts, though. The content leads to treating the thoughts differently, but they just remain thoughts.
I tried thinking of the friend while labeling them stranger and vice versa, which was confusing and brought up more bodily sensations of tightness and warmth, but I could see that the thoughts are just there, passing by. I don't control the contents of what I think or who I conjured up. They are kind of "flat" in and of themselves, but when I grasp at them to be true/untrue, then I start feeling things.

Great noticing! I would also like to encourage you to get curious about the accompanying body sensations without coming to conclusion about what they mean... i.e. without letting thoughts come in and interpret. If thoughts arise, no problem, but they don't have to be taken as 'true'!

I'm finding it difficult to stay this mindful, though. It's like as soon as I stop really looking, I'm immediately drawn in again and become reactive to the content. If I practice looking in this way, will that become less?

It is natural get drawn back in to the normal everyday way of responding to what's going on, but when you give yourself the time to slow down and look at what is actually happening in your direct experience it is like an untangling of automatic responses which enables less reactivity and greater ability to respond with clarity.


HEARING EXERCISE

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?

2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just what can be heard'?

4) Can a boundary be found between the hearer and what's heard or is there only what's heard?

4b) Is there location or distance of what is heard?

5) What is the difference in experience between listening and hearing?

What do you find?


Warmly,

Rowena