Self be gone

[poppyseed]

Hi Glen

Enjoyment shows up when it does and so does the label.

Exactly!

thoughts that something ought to be different still appear

Of course they do. BUT when that thought appears, is there a problem?
Or just a thought saying there is a problem
Nothing has to change for this to be clear. Even the thought “this isn’t enough” is just another appearance. You don’t need to get rid of anything. You don’t need to stabilize anything. You don’t need to become thought-free.

Here are the checkpoint questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer ​what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Answer from what is seen right now, not from what you’ve concluded.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Love
Rali

[Gary1]

Hello Rali

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Like Luke Skywalker, it has a place in the imagination, but not outside of that and it never did.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is the thought and sense of certainty that I am a body that sees and thinks etc. "When it starts" could refer to age and I have no answer to that. If "when it starts" refers to the exact moment the thought of self arises these days then I also have no answer.
As to how it works, once the illusion of self appears then a follow-up thought about the body being wrong in some way is often close behind and less than stellar sensations can arise leading to thought about how to feel better and on it goes.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Sometimes it feels weird, other times liberating. The difference now versus a couple months ago is that the sense of certainty about being a body is fleeting when that thought appears. This understanding that I'm not a self is not constant yet.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

One of the questions that stands out is asking if the sensation of the body says "I am you?" I found that amusing and insightful. Also asking me in multiple ways if some idea of a self is "just thoughts." At some point it became obvious that even routine or subtle thoughts are "just thoughts."

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decision is a thought taking credit for an action that would have happened anyway. Looking at different things outside my window can happen without a "decider" or with one. Typing this very sentence doesn't require anybody claiming to be in charge of it.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intension is a thought about wanting to do something. I intend to have a protein smoothie in about an hour. I guess what you're getting at here is that an intension can get someone to think that he or she decided to do something as opposed to that thing happening without a decision being necessary.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

The aforementioned protein smoothie will get made and consumed or it won't - no free will involved. Answering these questions is also taking place out of habit with no free will needed.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Choice is the thought that a self will use free will to pick one thing over another. Just yesterday, I planned on hiking a certain trail but ended up veering to the left and hiking a different one and I'm not sure why.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

I'm detecting a common theme here. Control is the thought of free will. If the thought appears that I'm in control with no counter thought then I seem to be in control. I just blinked my eyes several times rapidly and the thought appeared that I did that. Go figure.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Without resorting to unreliable thought, I have no idea. Resorting to unreliable thought, I still wouldn't know for sure.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I don't find anything. Sleep happens, digestion happens, blinking happens, and thoughts happen too. I don't see where I cause any of that.

6) Anything to add?

For now, just one question: does Rali rhyme with Dolly?

Glen

[poppyseed]

Hi Glen

Great! Everything you wrote is consistent except for this subtle drift:

This understanding that I'm not a self is not constant yet.

Look! Is this about an understanding being constant or about thoughts appearing and disappearing?
It seems like there is still an expectation for something to stabilize, fewer thoughts, permanence. Drop all of that.
Even if the thought “I am a body” appears 100 times, does it ever create a self?
If the answer is still no, then what exactly would “progress” even mean?

I will pass your answers to the other guides to check if we’ve missed anything so please stand by for questions
And no, Rali doesn’t rhyme with Dolly 😄. It’s more like a car rally
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

...
A guide has asked with regards to:

This understanding that I'm not a self is not constant yet.

Who judges constancy? Is it possible to know what is constant in direct experience or only with a thought of past or future?
Love
rali

[Gary1]

Hello Rali

Even if the thought “I am a body” appears 100 times, does it ever create a self?

If that thought is accompanied by a sense of certainty then I'll be sucked in to the alternate universe where I'm a body with all of the follow-up thoughts and feelings that entails. I experienced that earlier today walking in public. Only the question "am I a body?" broke that spell.

Is this about an understanding being constant or about thoughts appearing and disappearing?

The desire to feel good seems as natural as breathing and eating, therefore delusions that cause pain seem best to avoid.

Who judges constancy? Is it possible to know what is constant in direct experience or only with a thought of past or future?

True, direct experience would have avoided a disturbing thought of constancy, so is the lesson to stay in direct experience more often and stop complaining that I'm not perched atop Mount Everest yet?

Glen

[poppyseed]

Hi Glen

I get sucked in when the thought is accompanied by a sense of certainty

Look carefully… What is that “sense of certainty” made of? A sensation? A thought?
Even when you are “sucked in”, does a self actually appear? Or is there a thought saying “I am a body”, a sensation (tight, heavy, convincing), more thoughts building a story.
Is that different from before… or just a more convincing story?

Only the question ‘am I a body?’ broke the spell.

Good, but see this clearly! Did the question (still thought) remove a real self? Or did it interrupt a chain of thoughts?
Nothing real was there to break. Only a loop paused.

delusions that cause pain seem best to avoid

Careful! That sounds reasonable, but look deeper. Pain appears. Thought says: “this is because of a delusion”. Another thought says: “I should avoid this”. Now you have a sensation, a thought, and more thought trying to control it. Is there someone managing this?
If anything, delusions causing pain should be seen through, not avoided. And all of this happens on its own. When pain appears ('unpleasant" experience), there are usually thoughts how things should be different and the pain should not be here. But these are just thoughts. Next time instead of concentrating on exploring the desire for the pain to go away, try staying with the pain (the raw sensation), welcoming it -provided that is not life threatening of course. See what happens with the pain. Eventually belief in the truthfulness of a story drops away. The story is way more enjoyable without a "me" and the fear that something can happen to this “me.” Once it’s clearly seen that there is no actual me, there is no place for the story to stick (to form an identity). Whatever happens feels okay. Even pain :)
No manager, no traffic cop deciding: this thought goes, this thought stays. Even this:

direct experience would have avoided a disturbing thought

A disturbing thought appears. Is that outside of direct experience? Or is it part of what is happening?
Direct experience is not peaceful, thought-free, protected. It includes disturbing thoughts, confusion, and getting “sucked in”. So check this:
When a disturbing thought appears, Is that a failure to stay in direct experience?
Or is it exactly what is happening ?
Nothing needs to be avoided. Nothing needs to be prevented.
You’re still assuming: “there is a better version of experience where this doesn’t happen”
Look again. Is that anything more than a thought about how things should be?
Even when confusion / disturbing thoughts / the feeling of being a body appears, Is that outside of THIS? Or is it THIS, exactly as it is
Direct experience is not a refuge. It’s not a tool. It’s not something you stay in. It’s simply whatever is happening, including everything you think shouldn’t be happening.
Love
Rali

[Gary1]

Hello Rali

I'm not feeling well enough to answer any questions today. I don't know if I'll feel like answering questions another day or not.

Glen

[poppyseed]

Hi Glen
No problem at all with not feeling well. But just notice something—no need to fix it.
You said:

I don’t feel like answering questions

Look at that closely. Is that just a physical sensation?
Or also thoughts about engaging, effort, continuing?
Not wrong. Just look. Is there resistance as something solid? Or just sensations thoughts saying “not now,” “too much,” “later”.
No need to push through it. But don’t turn it into: “I can’t continue”
Resistance is actually your friend - it reveals something that needs to be seen. A lie/delusion not being checked. Check:
Is there an actual barrier… or just a set of thoughts + sensations, labeled “not feeling up to it”
Even not answering is part of what is happening. So nothing to do.
Just one quiet check… Is there someone resisting or just resistance appearing (sensations plus old thought patterns)?
Rest is fine. Just don’t let thought turn it into a story about “me not being able.”
That’s all.

Just to let you know, I will be travelling back tomorrow, so I will be able to reply on Tuesday. Use the opportunity to really spend some time playing with these questions :)
Love
Rali

[Gary1]

Hello Rali

Is there someone resisting or just resistance appearing (sensations plus old thought patterns)?

I can see thoughts as just appearing at times, but sadly it's not my default perception.
I got a message from the Liberation Unleashed team informing me of various zoom options that I guess weren't available before. I assumed when I received it that dialoguing with you would come to an end which was apparently not the case, so our back and forth posts proceed until when?

Glen

[poppyseed]

Hi Glen
Good—this is honest again.

I can see thoughts as just appearing at times, but it’s not my default perception.

Look carefully. Is there actually a “default perception”?
Or is there sometimes seeing clearly and sometimes thoughts taken as real?
And then a thought saying “this should be the default”
Nothing needs to become permanent. That expectation is the last hook.
Even when thoughts are believed, does a self actually appear?
Or is it still thought + sensation labelled as real for a moment

I assumed when I received it that dialoguing with you would come to an end which was apparently not the case, so our back and forth posts proceed until when?

Look at that. Is there a timeline and a finish line, a gate to be crossed?
Or just this exchange happening now?
Practically speaking, it continues as long as there are questions and as long as you want to look. No obligation. No contract. No badge at the end or a trophy.
So don’t turn it into “when will this end” and “what happens next”. Those are just thoughts about a future
Right now… is anything unfinished?
Or are there only thoughts that something is incomplete
You don’t need this dialogue. You’re not progressing toward something. What needed to be seen has already been seen.
So the only real question is… is there a self or not? EVER?
Everything else is just commentary.
There weren’t more questions from the other guides but they were curious to see how you will answer the questions before, and their confirmation was based on that.
You said, in effect:

“maybe this is done” / “these questions might be a waste of time”

Good—now look at that directly. A thought appears: “this is done”. Another thought: “no need for more questions”
Check carefully! Is that a conclusion based on something real or just thoughts about being finished? What crosses the gate?
You’ve already seen that thoughts appear on their own with no thinker and no decider
So who decides “this is enough”? Is there an actual knower that says “done” or just a thought with a sense of finality
If there is no self…Who would be done / finished / wasting time
Look. When the thought “this is a waste of time” appears, is there something outside the thought confirming that?
No need to continue endlessly. But don’t let a thought decide “this is complete” without checking what is making that claim.
Is there someone who has reached the end or just a thought saying “this is the end”?
If it’s just a thought, why treat it as authority?
Look.
Love
Rali

[Gary1]

Hello Rali

Nothing needs to become permanent. That expectation is the last hook.

Liberating to know, but how useful would it be to see ten percent of one's thoughts as just thoughts?

Even when thoughts are believed, does a self actually appear?
Or is it still thought + sensation labelled as real for a moment

If someone believes in the self that a thought implies how beneficial is the idea of self not being real in that moment? Over time, that seeing through the thought can get quicker and more frequent I imagine.

Is there a timeline and a finish line, a gate to be crossed?
Or just this exchange happening now?

You do have a way of putting things back in the moment.

Right now… is anything unfinished?
Or are there only thoughts that something is incomplete

Right this very instant, nothing is lacking, so seeing that more often would be useful?

So the only real question is… is there a self or not? EVER?

When looking for a self, no self is seen.

Good—now look at that directly. A thought appears: “this is done”. Another thought: “no need for more questions”
Check carefully! Is that a conclusion based on something real or just thoughts about being finished? What crosses the gate?

I have no idea what crosses the gate.

When the thought “this is a waste of time” appears, is there something outside the thought confirming that?

So, is the thought, "this is a waste of time" never valid since only more thought could try to confirm it?

Is there someone who has reached the end or just a thought saying “this is the end”?

The thought was based on the message I received from the LU crew. I had mixed feelings about it, but the thought lived off and on until you blew it to kingdom come.

Glen

[poppyseed]

Hi Glen

how useful would it be to see ten percent of one’s thoughts as just thoughts?

Look at the assumption. There is nothing wrong with it, if it’s seen as empty (icons on your desktop), but the trap can still be here…Useful for whom?
If there is no self…Who benefits from more clarity, less confusion and faster recognition
Basically, this is the same as: “If I see this more often, life will improve” But look directly.
Is anything lacking? Or is that idea of “improvement” a thought about a future for a “me” that isn’t found.
All thoughts are just thoughts. You can’t ignore or stop them, you can't think "they are just thoughts", because you are not in control of thoughts. What happens when looking is present is that the content is seen as not true and it is corrected – some seen as the icons on the desktop (functioning) and some seen as irrelevant, just plain wrong. But that’s all part of thought self-organisation. Looking happens when it happens, so setting a goal to have it less or more (10% of the time) is like setting a goal to win the lottery :)

If someone believes in the self that a thought implies how beneficial is the idea of self not being real in that moment?

Careful. You’re still imagining a someone who believes and who benefits. Look again.
When belief happens… is there a believer? Or just a thought believed followed by more thoughts?
No one is trapped. No one is being freed. Just patterns appearing. Just patterns changing on their own around the thought of “there is no self”.

is the thought ‘this is a waste of time’ never valid?

A thought appears: “this is a waste of time”. What confirms it?
Another thought. That’s it.
This doesn’t mean to ignore practical thinking. It means no thought carries inherent authority. Not even “this is useful”, “this is pointless”, “this is done”. They’re all the same appearances with different content

Now this was very clear:

I have no idea what crosses the gate.

Good. Because look… If there is no self, what would cross? What would arrive? What would finish?
Nothing.
So what is left?
Just same old just this.

When looking for a self, no self is seen.

Is there a self or not? Don’t add time to that.
Not “when I look”, “more often”, “eventually”
Just is there one now?
Everything else—progress, usefulness, frequency, benefit—is thought trying to reintroduce a center.
Stay simple. No self found. End of story. Even if thought keeps talking, even if confusion appears, even if clarity fades.
Does anything ever appear that proves otherwise?
Look.
I can’t remember if I gave you this video, so just in case:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w
Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring (thoughts). It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs – your conditioning was not formed in a day and it will take time to see through it all. It doesn't fall away automatically, when seeing no self. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like. I will inbox you my details if you want to get in touch outside of the forum, but you can also continue writing here and I will still receive a notification even though your thread is already moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum.
There is a structured approach to looking at beliefs which you might want to explore – the 10 fetters approach.
Kevin Shinilac has instructions on his site https://www.simplytheseen.com/
Pernille Damore and Todd Lent https://www.youtube.com/@TheAwakeningCurriculum
Love
Rali

[Gary1]

Hello Rali

Thank you for so very much.

Glen