Looking for a guide.

[Jamie2012]

Hi John,

Whether we are there yet or not, only you will know truly. :)

Fair enough! I think I am there, but it's just a matter of allowing it to deepen, to become more a part of everyday life, as you say. To be more in the experience mode or at least being more aware that story mode is happening.

What comes up Jamie when it's asked, "So who is Jamie now and what is Jamie? When "Jamie" is gone what's left?"

Who is Jamie? Noone. What is Jamie? Nothing. With Jamie gone, there is the human organism that goes by the name Jamie and there is awareness of the experience of life from the perspective of that human. But in terms of someone behind the curtain running the show, there is no such person/thing in real life. It only exists as an idea, a thought. And it only ever did.

It would help to hear the experiences of seeing this around life, friends, when out walking, effects on working life and so on. This can help and support the integration of seeing with everyday life. :)

Here's the start of a typical day of recent. Waking up from sleep happens. Usually very quickly after that (some days sooner than others) there is the thought reminding me that there is no me. :D Then shifting goes back and forth between thoughts of the day ahead and the experience of the moment.

This morning was a bit unusual, however, because I started thinking a lot about an issue with a relative that I loaned money to and who has not paid me in several months. I have at moments found peace and acceptance of what is. Yet, this morning, there was a bit of a tail spin emotionally about it all. As it happened, I attempted to step back and see how it is all story. I did a few of the Byron Katie questions to myself. That did not change all the anger, frustration and lack of control that was felt. There was definitely an attachment to the thoughts, even as there was an effort to step back and see it for what it was. Then, later, as I was actually paying this bill, there was a more peaceful thought. As in, this is okay. I just pay it today, right now, and that's all. The rest is story.

So continuing on with a typical day, once at work, I'm focused on the task at hand. But often I take a short walk in the morning and use that time to look at things from the experience mode. Thoughts will shift back and forth between current experience, description of that experience, and then thoughts of other things. Lately, I notice truly how quickly, when I'm attempting to just experience this now, how quick the mind is to want to label everything, even if I don't want it to! :)

In terms of work life, I think there is more of a sense of peace. A couple months before finding LU, I went part-time at my job while I try to build up my own business. That was a supremely scary change at the time, and there was a lot of fear when it first happened about whether I'd find enough clients, whether I'd be able to make it work. However, without an I and knowing there is no real control over any of it? There is much more of a feeling of just seeing what happens next, knowing I can't know and knowing it will all just be as it is. The fear and anxiety pop up every now and again, but not like before. Having said that, when it comes to other people, particularly people who irritate me, there's still quite a bit of stickiness. And that's where I think some more work could stand to be done.

Something fun to share: today I came across that quote from Shakespeare, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Oh, how that is read in a whole new light now. I think Shakespeare was an LU guide before there was LU. :)

Anyway, to sum up, I think I'm there, so to speak, but it's just continuing to deepen into it, letting it all sink in, in all those areas where I might still want to identify as Jamie. I imagine that could possibly take some time. Or not. :D

Thank you!
Jamie

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Jamie,

Hi John,

Whether we are there yet or not, only you will know truly. :)

Fair enough! I think I am there, but it's just a matter of allowing it to deepen, to become more a part of everyday life, as you say. To be more in the experience mode or at least being more aware that story mode is happening.

What comes up Jamie when it's asked, "So who is Jamie now and what is Jamie? When "Jamie" is gone what's left?"

Who is Jamie? Noone. What is Jamie? Nothing. With Jamie gone, there is the human organism that goes by the name Jamie and there is awareness of the experience of life from the perspective of that human. But in terms of someone behind the curtain running the show, there is no such person/thing in real life. It only exists as an idea, a thought. And it only ever did.

It would help to hear the experiences of seeing this around life, friends, when out walking, effects on working life and so on. This can help and support the integration of seeing with everyday life. :)

Here's the start of a typical day of recent. Waking up from sleep happens. Usually very quickly after that (some days sooner than others) there is the thought reminding me that there is no me. :D Then shifting goes back and forth between thoughts of the day ahead and the experience of the moment.

This morning was a bit unusual, however, because I started thinking a lot about an issue with a relative that I loaned money to and who has not paid me in several months. I have at moments found peace and acceptance of what is. Yet, this morning, there was a bit of a tail spin emotionally about it all. As it happened, I attempted to step back and see how it is all story. I did a few of the Byron Katie questions to myself. That did not change all the anger, frustration and lack of control that was felt. There was definitely an attachment to the thoughts, even as there was an effort to step back and see it for what it was. Then, later, as I was actually paying this bill, there was a more peaceful thought. As in, this is okay. I just pay it today, right now, and that's all. The rest is story.

So continuing on with a typical day, once at work, I'm focused on the task at hand. But often I take a short walk in the morning and use that time to look at things from the experience mode. Thoughts will shift back and forth between current experience, description of that experience, and then thoughts of other things. Lately, I notice truly how quickly, when I'm attempting to just experience this now, how quick the mind is to want to label everything, even if I don't want it to! :)

In terms of work life, I think there is more of a sense of peace. A couple months before finding LU, I went part-time at my job while I try to build up my own business. That was a supremely scary change at the time, and there was a lot of fear when it first happened about whether I'd find enough clients, whether I'd be able to make it work. However, without an I and knowing there is no real control over any of it? There is much more of a feeling of just seeing what happens next, knowing I can't know and knowing it will all just be as it is. The fear and anxiety pop up every now and again, but not like before. Having said that, when it comes to other people, particularly people who irritate me, there's still quite a bit of stickiness. And that's where I think some more work could stand to be done.

Something fun to share: today I came across that quote from Shakespeare, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Oh, how that is read in a whole new light now. I think Shakespeare was an LU guide before there was LU. :)

Anyway, to sum up, I think I'm there, so to speak, but it's just continuing to deepen into it, letting it all sink in, in all those areas where I might still want to identify as Jamie. I imagine that could possibly take some time. Or not. :D

Thank you!
Jamie

Thank you for sharing that - it really, really helps to see where you're at and where to go next.

Having seen through the personal self, there is often times, some subtle (and not so subtle) personalising of awareness for example. There are layers of our description that keep the "I" very subtly in the game.

So please explore these statements:

When thoughts arise, they arise to no-one.
When feelings arise, they arise to no-one.

Sit with those, and when thoughts or feeling arise, take a close look for any sense of self to whom they are being shown. If you do sense that, look at the story "of a you receiving thoughts" and see that it's simply not the case and notice what that is like.

With best wishes,
John

p.s. forgot to say, yes, there is a Byron Katie FB group which is an excellent resource to explore any issues.

[Jamie2012]

Hi John,

Thank you so much for your response. :)

Enjoying the most beautiful of days. Open windows, cool breezes, big blue skies and puffy clouds. So lovely!

I'll think this over and will write back again tomorrow.

Many thanks and talk soon,
Jamie

[Jamie2012]

Hi John! :)

So please explore these statements:

When thoughts arise, they arise to no-one.
When feelings arise, they arise to no-one.

Sit with those, and when thoughts or feeling arise, take a close look for any sense of self to whom they are being shown. If you do sense that, look at the story "of a you receiving thoughts" and see that it's simply not the case and notice what that is like.

If I think about it this way, there is no sense of self to whom they are being shown. Nor a "me" receiving thoughts. Thoughts are arising. Feelings are arising. Perhaps at a later time I might get into the identification mode at times, but even then, if I were to ask "to whom are they being shown" the answer would still clearly be noone and the question itself would probably "snap me out of it." :D

Yesterday, a couple things I noticed. As I was rushing around trying to "get things done" as is my usual way, I realized what was happening and decided that instead of always focusing on what "Jamie needs to get done", to just be in the moment and be washing a dish or dusting or whatever. Always trying to get tasks accomplished is a very "Jamie" centered way of experiencing life, focusing on the story. Just focusing on the experience right now moves the focus away from a Jamie-driven mode (story) and into just experiencing. And what am I trying to get done anyway? What's the goal? There is no end goal, no final place to be, where everything is going to be finished. The whole point is just the experience, so what is there to rush. And there is no control over it, so why not just be here now? It's a much more peaceful way of experiencing life.

In relating to my husband this weekend, I foung myself much more able to laugh at myself. In the past when he's teased me, I would sometimes be able to laugh, sometimes I would get defensive. This weekend he said something about me being rigid, which I normally would have taken offense to. But I laughed, really laughed, because it's true. But who cares? There's not really a "me trying to be" rigid, or a me that can make myself less rigid. It's just happening that way and awareness is observing it. Only labeling that "me" as rigid is what "needs defending" against. In reality, the personality traits of this human Jamie are what they are and it's kind of funny even. Well, look-y there...laughing at myself is happening. It's a miracle :D

There were a few seconds last night when I was getting ready for dinner and I looked at "my" husband and "me" in the mirror and that kind of oneness feeling happened, similar to staring at the pen for awhile. Nothing truly special, just a few seconds of a glimpse of something I can't quite put into words. Like just a momentary realization of non-separation? Something like that.

So back to the story of a "you receiving thoughts." There is no "me receiving thoughts." It really is not the case. There are thoughts happening. There are feelings happening. There is awareness of thoughts and feelings. There is no me. What it's like to see this? It's peaceful. Relaxing. There's nothing to do and noone to do it. This phrase seems very familiar. I have a sense that I've read it here on LU or in the Gateless Gatecrashers book a hundred times. But it has a meaning now. I really get it. Sometimes I think of it as awareness watching a script that's already been written,and it's being watched from the perspective of Jamie. From this perspective, yes, thoughts occur but noone is receiving thoughts. Just thoughts coming, going. Feelings coming, going.

Hope you had a lovely weekend. Starting to feel a little melty again here. :)

Warm wishes and thanks,
Jamie

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Jamie,

That was lovely to read. :)

These questions will provide clarity and support to your seeing. Just write whatever honestly shows up in response to reading them. Thank you.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.


3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.


4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.


5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?


6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?


7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?


8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?


9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?


10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.


With warm wishes,
John

[Jamie2012]

Hi John,

Thank you for the questions, and I look forward to answering them over the next day or two. :)

I'll be in touch soon!

Thank you,
Jamie

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Jamie,

Hi John,

Thank you for the questions, and I look forward to answering them over the next day or two. :)

I'll be in touch soon!

Thank you,
Jamie

Cool. :D

Best wishes,
John

[Jamie2012]

Hi John,

I have had no time to even get started on this. I'm so ready to sit down and write my answers but life has been busy this week.

So I'm just doing my daily checking in to let you know I'm still here and just haven't had time to work on it yet. :)

Talk soon!
Jamie

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hey Jamie,

Hi John,

I have had no time to even get started on this. I'm so ready to sit down and write my answers but life has been busy this week.

So I'm just doing my daily checking in to let you know I'm still here and just haven't had time to work on it yet. :)

Talk soon!
Jamie

No worries. :)

Appreciate you checking in.

With best wishes,
John

[Jamie2012]

Hi John,

Truly, feeling like a broken record here. :)

If not tomorrow, then I should have time on Friday or this weekend.

If I have time to answer just a few at a time, I might try that as well.

Thank you for your patience,
Jamie

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Jamie,

Really, it's fine. :) Everything has it's time - like we have a choice in the matter. ;)

Warm wishes,
John

[Jamie2012]

Hi John! I guess the time is finally right to get these answers posted here. :D

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

No, there is no me, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form. No, there never was a me. There is no separate self. Everything that is real - bodies, trees, pets, buildings - are all part of life and there is nothing that is separate from it.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion of a separate self is simply a story, reinforced by everyone around us. When we are born, we get a name. And so it begins. People call us by that name and eventually we learn that the word "Jamie" refers to all the thoughts, the feelings, the body that is being experienced. We come to believe that this means there is a separate "me." At the same time, we are learning the language spoken by those around us. We learn to label everything we see with words. We begin to believe that everything can be explained by these labels, including ourselves. At some point, we understand and never think to question what everyone has told us, that "I" am separate from "you" and everything else that can be seen around us. I sometimes think this explains why I have memories of being a child and experiencing life in a different way...before everything was labeled, there was more experience without labeling. Before we know what something is, we just experience it as it is. That's all. As we get older and learn more and more, the conditioning of labeling quicks in so quickly it is automatic. Therefore, there is more story and less experience.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

It feels...normal. That analogy of describing how a fish would describe water is coming up. There are still moments of conditioning that kick in, and lots of moments still spent in story. But it doesn't change the seeing. That can't be taken away, although there are still long spans of not thinking about it. Other times, there are small moments of a felt sense of being part of the fabric of life. Sounds cliche , but it's really like being IN it, for those brief moments.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

There are so many ways, I suppose, so it just depends on what came up in the moment.

But, for example, I might ask them...what drives a car? And they would say, a person. Then I would ask, who walks you? Who talks you? Controls you? And they might say, I do. And I'd say, is there literally a "you" that enters your body and drives you? Talks you? Controls you? Do they come just before you wake up in the morning? No? Then where are YOU in real life.

But actually, I would probably only say something like that if it seemed like they were ready for something that intense. In actuality, I'd probably be a lot gentler. Ask them, what comes up if I say that there is no separate you in reality? And wait to see if they run away screaming. :D

Or I could also tell them the story of how I came to find out about it and explain how much peace there is in it and how much more peace I think there is to come as my old habits continue to unwind and fall away.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

I can't say there was a last bit or specific moment. It was very, very, very gradual. "I" would have definitely preferred less gradual. :D The first time I saw the question, "What comes up when I say there is no separate self in reality?", I felt my whole perspective jump back and behind my body and there was a TON of fear. I processed that for a few hours and realized soon after the sense of control that felt lost. Long story short, I spent several days obsessed with the subject, reading posts on LU, and then finally decided to join the forum. After we started our conversation, there was just a gradual period of small realizations that added up. The big points that I can remember: the letting go of expectations of what it would be like to see (most especially the expectation of how long it would take and the idea that there is any control over the fact!); the silly realness that there's no literal separate me (my car analogy helped a lot); the change in a sense of a "me looking out" to just senses perceiving life happening; the acceptance that my behavior is not controlled by me, that it is also just happening while the labeling makes it seem to be me doing. I think perhaps, finally, the looking at objects and taking off labels was the final bit that pushed me over. Just the small moment of, oh, the pen and this awareness looking out are the same.

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

The word "I" is just a label that refers to the thoughts that are happening, the feelings that are happening, the felt sense of being in this human body. It's the easiest way to refer to the awareness that is experiencing life from the perspective of Jamie. It's just so much quicker, you know? :D

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?

There is only experience. Sometimes there is labeling that the experience is being controlled by I, but that always has been and always will be a story.

8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

This one made me think! In a way, I think the answer is neither. Clearly neither the body nor experience can "own" anything. However, I think what you are getting at is that the body is part of experience. The reverse (that experience is part of the body) is not true. Clearly the body of Jamie is not running the show here.

9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?

There wasn't really a "moment I awoke." It was more a collection of understandings that added up to an, oh, I see. Plus sometimes a bit of a sense of peace when the moments of feeling not separate happen. Not a definitive moment though, not at all.

10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

Again, I can't say that there was a time frame "following awakening" as such. It's just that now, every time there's a period of getting lost in story thoughts, eventually, thoughts come back to right now, whatever is being sensed, felt, and looking at it and seeing that it is all there is and it is experience. Everything else is labels and stories. Everything becomes much simpler.

Thank you so, so much for walking me through this process. I am eternally grateful.

All the best,
Jamie

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hey Jamie,

Hi John! I guess the time is finally right to get these answers posted here. :D

Lovely to hear from you.

I've shared your responses with the other guides and they may come back with additional comments or questions.

Keep in touch! ;)
John

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Jamie,

Have just sent you a private message so if you could check your PM inbox when the moment shows up. :)

With warm wishes!
John