Papillon

[papillon]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? That the entire identity-psychological I- is an illusion. Due to strong beliefs, convictions, thoughts, emotions, attachments -- a contraction is created within the open space that causes us to build walls around ourselves. Everything is perceived as threat. We believe ourselves to actually be a small me behind the eyes looking out to the world.

What are you looking for at LU? It feels like there is still a tiny thread holding me to the 'identity', like a final small thing to let go of. The space is open. I understand Douglas Harding's headless exercises now. It seems my previous experience of life is incredibly fragmented, now there is space, calm, finally the light of attention is turned outwards, but something feels incomplete. Maybe even this feeling of incompleteness is another trap but still worth looking into.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? To dissolve any remaining contractions/doubts that may exist. The experience of life is already different, more relaxed, more open. The entire visual field is clear, unobstructed. Thoughts and emotions arise, I get pulled back in, and I want to resolve any obstructions that may still be there.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Spiritual literature, books, few lousy attempts at meditation.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[graceabounds]

Hello Papillon,
(is that the name you’d like for me to use here?)

I’m happy to sit here beside you in this exploration.

Is there still a final thread that feels present? How would you describe it or when does it appear?

In gratitude,
Becca

[papillon]

Hi Becca,

We can use 'papillon'.
Thanks for doing this.

Is there still a final thread that feels present? How would you describe it or when does it appear?

There is still switching between two 'modes' -- from openness where living is incredibly light, unfragmented, without intermediary, then back into the contraction (person). the "person" comes back with all its stories and suffering and seeking. So it seems very incomplete. It comes back mostly in moments of unpleasant bodily experience, fear, anxiety.

[graceabounds]

Hello Papillon,

You reference incomplete. What would ‘complete’ look like? What is expected?

When the “‘person’ comes back”, is it seen through? Meaning is there still full identification with the stories, or are they somewhat hollow?

Now go into the body where contraction happens.

Dropping the labels of ‘anxiety’ and ‘fear’, underneath that…

What is it, exactly?
Tightness? Pressure? Heat?

Staying with raw sensation only, describe what is experienced. Is it still or moving?

Does not wanting this sensation = ‘I’?

-Becca

[papillon]

Hi Becca,

When the person comes back, the stories feel somewhat hollow -- I can see them as stories, but there's still getting pulled in, especially with unpleasant bodily sensations and fear.

Underneath the labels of anxiety and fear there's tightness and contraction in throat and gut mostly. Heat sometimes. Pressure. When I look directly at the contraction it becomes harder to locate, loses solidity.

Whether not wanting it equals 'I', I think so, yes. The resistance to it feels like the core of it. But I'm still confused. I don't know if anything actually shifted or if I'm just getting better at talking about this. That feels important to be honest about.

Papillon

[graceabounds]

Great.

The important thing is not whether “something shifted” (and as a side note it is far better to sit inside uncertainty than claim certainty about any of this.) What matters is the stories are being seen as stories.

So that resistance is the apparent self. Now look under the hood at the tightness and contraction. You already noticed when examined directly, it loses solidity. So stay with it as best you can. Is there any self in the tightness and contraction? Is there actually an entity there??
Is there anything to be resisted in these sensations as they appear and disappear? Does the contraction mean danger?

What is “not wanting” made of?

[papillon]

Yes, stories are seen as stories now. There is no me producing thoughts
and emotions, it's the other way around, the interplay of thoughts,
emotions, and sensations creates a sense of me generating them.

The sense of self just re-forms wherever attention lands next: resistance,
then contraction, then the next thing - not the same thing relocating,
just appearing fresh each time, nowhere to be found when looked at directly.

The contraction doesn't mean danger, that's just another layer of story on top of sensation.
Not wanting is made of the same thing - sensation, not done by anyone.

[graceabounds]

Is anything missing?

Any sense of seeking remaining?

[papillon]

Nothing missing. No seeking left.

Some cries come up as thoughts though: "Where is the experience? It's all intellectual." Images of disciples "getting it" and having dramatic experiences, teachers describing their awakenings. Just thoughts: "this isn't it, and you know it, you're fooling yourself. What about herenow, I AM, awareness, non-duality, inner-outer as one? You're not seeing any of that, no ticks on the checklist. Your journey has not even started."

But the one who is supposed to get it simply does not exist but as another thought. It's like an angry mob shouting at a defendant who is simply not there. And the same thing is noticed over and over when other contractions arise.

[graceabounds]

:)

Yes, self is the first illusion. Not the only one.

But without that fiction in the driver’s seat, what comes next has the flavor of exploring, rather than seeking.

Some cries come up as thoughts though: "Where is the experience? It's all intellectual."

What is daily life and interaction with others like now vs before seeing?

And the same thing is noticed over and over when other contractions arise.

How are these contractions experienced now that there is no one to own them? How are they known?

[papillon]

What is daily life and interaction with others like now vs before seeing?

Much lighter, more relaxed. My life was mostly marked by isolation, fear of people, social anxiety, and self-doubt to the point of paralysis. I would go on entire odysseys just to send a message, trying to find the perfect wording, wondering how it came across, what they would think, with a strong feeling of not belonging and being an impostor. I was constantly questioning myself and reality, tense and on the lookout, obsessed with whether someone had insulted or disrespected me. Now thoughts are seen as automatic processes firing up rather than absolute truth. I was convinced the 'voice' was me - it was disguised as me. Everything was filtered through that character, with so much energy spent defending it, maintaining its image, and proving worth. Now there is much less of that filtering and defending.

How are these contractions experienced now that there is no one to own them? How are they known?

They are recognized as physical sensations in the body accompanied by some story. Owned by no one. They are simply felt as they arise and pass; there is no one there who needs to fix them, resist them, or react to them.

[graceabounds]

What you describe since seeing does not sound intellectual to me. :)


To circle back here to the original intent:

What do you expect from a guided conversation? To dissolve any remaining contractions/doubts that may exist

So, shall I present a round questions to uncover any remaining gaps?

-Becca

[papillon]

So, shall I present a round questions to uncover any remaining gaps?

Yes, please. I’d appreciate a final round of questions to uncover any remaining gaps.

[papillon]

I was just thinking how much I rely on validation of others in work, in building a decentralized logging system. On developers, architects, people I consider higher up. As if I'm waiting for the permission of the higher-order people to tell me I'm ready, to confirm that it is doable, it is buildable, seeing everyone and everything as a hierarchy, lacking trust in my own reason and judgment.

And now I'm doing it here too. Final round of questions so that a 'panel of judges' can confirm my own seeing of no-self. Is any confirmation/test really needed? I'm basically saying 'I need the panel to validate that seeing no-self is real before I can trust the seeing.' Then I will be relieved and know for sure the seeing was real. I have no clue what people mean by herenow, I AM, This, etc. I don't want to pretend I do. There was no magical experience here of any kind, no pop, no big bang.

No entity is found when looking for self. Thoughts appear, sensations appear, resistance appears; the sense of 'me' seems to be assembled around them. When I look directly, there isn't someone hiding underneath. A new thought appears: 'Is this officially it?' - and then the guides, the questions, the judgment, and ultimately the permission enter. Experience of life is lighter, there is more confidence, no endless loops of worry, depression, anxiety. Memories are factual, no longer involve extended reliving and re-experiencing of painful events in the past. There was never anyone here that went on a spiritual journey, the seeker was just one of the roles the thought was playing.

We're investigating the absence of an independently existing controller who needs to authorize experience - and then the apparent person says: 'Excellent, now I need an external authority to certify that I've discovered the absence of the controller.'

[graceabounds]

Yes, bravo!

There is no gate, and no one to cross it. :)

The big bang experience is not necessary. For many it is a non-event, everything is the same yet somehow everything is different. It is simply clear that the whole show is and was a mirage.

We come back to expectations, which are never in time, now. Always looking back or ahead. But does that exist?

Now that you have looked under the rock of ‘approval’ (yep, no one to own that!) can the rock of ‘comparison’ be lifted and looked under?

The end of seeking does not mean the end of exploring…