Dissolving the concept of non-self into direct realisation

[infinicky]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Nothing exists in and of itself. Everything is constructed and dependent on the arising of other phenomena. The self is not exempt from this. "I" only exist in relationship to others.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for wisdom and insight into what it means to realise there is no inherent self. I am curious to find out wether it's possible for me to transform my intellectual understanding to a felt, embodied realisation of selflessness. I'm currently training with a teacher from the Gelug tradition to meditate on the emptiness of self and phenomena and I think this practice of pointing will be very supportive of that.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect the guided conversation to direct me to what I’m not seeing. I’m hoping to be challenged by having my blind spots pointed out. I expect to feel uncomfortable by being challenged. I expect to feel frustrated, because I think I intellectually understand something already while not actually having seen it yet.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been reflecting on my beliefs, thoughts and actions from an early age in psychotherapy. My spiritual practice started when I was 16, when I started dabbling in meditation and trying to live according to buddhist ethical precepts. A year ago, my practice has deepened profoundly after I sought refuge in the buddha and his teachings. I've been reading a lot of texts about the nature of the mind, meditation, ways of looking and emptiness. I've started an intensive meditation training and have a daily practice. I also try to go on retreat almost every month.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Noro]

Hello,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.
My name is Rowena and I am happy to be your guide. I see you've been waiting a long time on the forum, unfortunately there are many people interested and not so many guides.

1. Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

2. Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

and "Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)

5. Please answer all questions individually, not in a bundle, as this will assist us both in having a clear dialogue. Also it is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

6. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers. Here's a video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written. Mostly they are easy to spot as they will be in blue text, although sometimes I might forget to highlight in blue.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. And I will do so as well.
What time zone are in? I am in Belgium which is CET
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

STARTING THE ENQUIRY: EXPECTATIONS

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open. Only fear and expectations can prevent clear seeing of no self.

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?


Looking forward to hearing from you,

Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you so much for taking the time to be my guide on this forum! The website didn't work for me for a few days, so that's why I'm only replying now.

Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them.

I read them again. The only doubt I have would be about how I would know that I’ve fully realised the self is just a story? The concepts seem very clear and obvious, but if nothing changes, how would I know I’ve “crossed the gateless gate”?

What time zone are [you] in?

I’m in the Netherlands, so the same time zone as you!

STARTING THE ENQUIRY: EXPECTATIONS

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I think I would resist the things that happen less. That there will be some kind of relief accompanied with a continuous insight that there are just “happenings” and no one in control of it all. That life will just go on as it always does, but that I will be able to relax into it more.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I expect that I will take things less personally when unpleasant things happen, and therefore suffer less from the stories that arise after the unpleasantness.

3. What do you want not to happen?

That I won’t be able to really connect with people who haven’t realised there’s no separate self.

4. What are you hoping for?

I’m hoping for that sense of relief. The release of this feeling of tightness in my chest that arises when the stories about myself and others are painful. That everything that happens will seem lighter, like things will appear less serious and meaningful, without losing meaning altogether.

5. What is missing?

I’m not certain I understand this question, but if you meant “what’s missing for you to realise there’s no separate self”, then I guess that would be that there’s not been a continuity of the revelation (that the self is just a word for something that doesn’t exist separately) that stuck around. There’s intellectual understanding and certain glimpses of the relief that brought during meditations. And there have been moments where life unfolds and there’s the realisation that there’s no one “doing” any of it, but those glimpses are temporary. Emotions and thoughts gain the upper hand in experiencing life in such a way that the stories in my head seem more real than what’s happening. I guess I forget to look and my life gets replaced by fantasies. And self-cherishing still arises when people get angry at me. The habit to “protect myself” still plays out in these moments, as if there was anything to really protect.


Thank you again and I'll let you know if I expect not to be able to respond on a daily basis.

Kind regards and I hope you're well,

Nicky

[Noro]

Hello Nicky,

Thank you for your kind comments, I am well, and it is my pleasure to accompany you through this investigation. The website is problematic nowadays with many people using the forum and also many 'bots' causing problems, so it runs slowly at times.

I read them again. The only doubt I have would be about how I would know that I’ve fully realised the self is just a story? The concepts seem very clear and obvious, but if nothing changes, how would I know I’ve “crossed the gateless gate”?

This is what we will be investigating together!


Your expectations regarding what you hope to happen and to not happen are perfectly reasonable, and I will probably be gently reminding you to drop expectations when they arise. Really it is about letting everything that you've learned about awakening/spirituality etc. go in order to see for yourself. That's all that matters here.

I’m not certain I understand this question, but if you meant “what’s missing for you to realise there’s no separate self”, then I guess that would be that there’s not been a continuity of the revelation (that the self is just a word for something that doesn’t exist separately) that stuck around. There’s intellectual understanding and certain glimpses of the relief that brought during meditations. And there have been moments where life unfolds and there’s the realisation that there’s no one “doing” any of it, but those glimpses are temporary.

It looks like you already have a good start here, and with the investigating into what is actual or direct experience rather than what seems to be happening will certainly deepen this.

Emotions and thoughts gain the upper hand in experiencing life in such a way that the stories in my head seem more real than what’s happening. I guess I forget to look and my life gets replaced by fantasies. And self-cherishing still arises when people get angry at me. The habit to “protect myself” still plays out in these moments, as if there was anything to really protect.

All perfectly normal! And each time emotions and thoughts 'appear' to gain the upper hand will provide a great opportunity to investigate and see what is actually happening!!


HOW TO LOOK FOR THE NO SELF IN THE EXERCISES

There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is no-thing, and seeing that there is no-thing.

If you can’t see for yourself directly, you cannot describe what you see in your own words.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

COLORED SOCKS
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on.
We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

DIRECT OR ACTUAL EXPERIENCE IS
Seeing - colors or shapes
Hearing - sounds
Feeling or Sensing (without naming emotion as this is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
and
Cognizing or Thinking (but not the content of thinking. Thinking about content is just more thinking and diverts you from the direct experience)

Hopefully you are clear about this, if not, let me know if you would like any further clarification.

Direct Experience is not conceptual, or made of thought.
Experiencing happens before thought arrives to describe or explain it.
The moment we attempt to communicate experience we introduce concepts. We then respond or identify with those concepts. Then that experience of responding gives birth to more stories (concepts) to which we respond and so on…


EXERCISE: DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF DAILY ACTIVITIES

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities as simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of the experiencing of a cup of coffee

Seeing a cup; simply= image/color
Smelling coffee; simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup; simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee; simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee; simply = sound
Thinking about drinking the coffee; simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above. The point is to learn the difference between Actual / Direct Experience and the content of thought, which we made up.

Please post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above using the same word forms of your direct experiencing.

Best wishes,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you for your quick response and exercise!

And each time emotions and thoughts 'appear' to gain the upper hand will provide a great opportunity to investigate and see what is actually happening!!

This is super encouraging, thank you!

EXERCISE: DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF DAILY ACTIVITIES

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities as simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

Cycling to work
Seeing trees along the road = image & colour
Smelling flowers = smell
Feeling the burning in my legs and lungs = sensation
Still faintly tasting my morning coffee = taste
Hearing the wind in my ears = sound
Thinking about how loud it is = thought

Getting tea from the coffee machine
Seeing the coffee machine = image & colour
Smelling the old coffee grinds = smell
Feeling the cold glass in my hand = sensation
Tasting nothing = ?
Hearing the hot water pour from the machine = sound
Thinking about how hot it is = thought

Making a sandwich for lunch
Seeing a plate = image & colour
Smelling peanut butter = smell
Feeling the weight of the plate = sensation
Tasting the sandwich = taste
Hearing the crunch = sound
Thinking about it not tasting very good = thought

Cooking pasta
Seeing the pasta = image & colour
Smelling the gas from the stove = smell
Feeling the hot steam = sensation
Tasting the salt = taste
Hearing the stove = sound
Thinking about whether it will be enough = thought

Brushing my teeth
Seeing myself in the mirror = image & colour
Smelling the toothpaste = smell
Feeling the brush on my gums = sensation
Tasting the toothpaste = taste
Hearing the brush against my teeth = sound
Counting to keep track of how long I’m brushing each tooth = thought


I hope this is enough for now. It's simple to describe, but hard to separate from the thoughts about what's coming in through all the senses.

Hope you're well,

Nicky

[Noro]

Hi Nicky,

I hope this is enough for now. It's simple to describe, but hard to separate from the thoughts about what's coming in through all the senses.

I think you've got the hang of that very well. As you say, it is hard to separate from thoughts about what's coming in through the senses, it will just take a little while and so I recommend taking short moments in the day to keep on with this exercise. No need to write anything down, just say quietly to yourself.


APPLE EXERCISE

Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can go online and find a photo of an apple or use a real apple.

When looking at an apple in the usual way, we are looking at something in the visual field, and we will see that there's color and a shape. Then thinking comes very quickly afterwards with a thought saying "apple" and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

In actual or direct experience we are simply seeing, and the simple act of seeing does not include any interpretations or descriptions. Those are overlayed through thought onto the visual experience which is totally non-conceptual.

However, as a concession, for the sake of communicating we can allow a minimum of thought content, in order to do this exercise; so we can say that colors and shapes are seen, and thinking is also seen but without any thought content.

Actual (direct) experience does not refer to thoughts (including labels, interpretations and descriptions) about something.

Actual experience refers to the raw data of sound, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thinking arising, but not its content.

So, as you do this apple exercise, is there really an 'apple' here or only color and shape and a thought about 'apple'?

Can an actual 'apple' be found in direct experience?

While thoughts or descriptions are known, what they describe can't be found in direct experience.

Please let me know if this is clear for you.

Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Hi Rowena,

Looks like some of our conversation has been lost, but I did copy your last reply and did the exercise. I hope the website will be OK again for now!

MIND LABEL EXPERIENCE

Pay attention to body sensations, watch what is happening in the body.
What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….."
What is the body sensation without the add-on of "I am…."?

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Does one feel truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

1. I didn't sense any difference in how true either seemed.
2. Without the labels there's just information that the 6 senses are picking up. Just a sight, smell, sound, sensation, taste or thought. Quite funny that life will always be actually as simple as that. It's so automatic though, that I feel quite far from dropping the labeling. Or is the labeling also just a part of experience that doesn't change with liberation? Does it too become just another thought?
3. The labeling clearly doesn't change any of what's happening in the moment, but it does affect the sensations in the body in the form of emotions.
4. Yes, actually. I didn't notice much of what was happening in my body when labeling experience with "I am", but I did notice the slight sense of ease when "I am" was dropped from the descriptions. Like a bit of tightness released. Breathing became slower as well, and more down in the belly than up in the chest.

I hope you're well,

Nicky

[Noro]

Hi Nicky,

The website has really been playing up and that is really great that you copied my last post and the exercise. Let's keep fingers crossed for the website! And please keep copying everything you've written down as I had to make this post twice, luckily I saved what I had written!

1. I didn't sense any difference in how true either seemed.

Fair enough for this question.

2. Without the labels there's just information that the 6 senses are picking up. Just a sight, smell, sound, sensation, taste or thought. Quite funny that life will always be actually as simple as that. It's so automatic though, that I feel quite far from dropping the labeling. Or is the labeling also just a part of experience that doesn't change with liberation? Does it too become just another thought?

If I am to understand you correctly, when dropping the label "I am...." you found "that life will always be actually as simple as that." I would love to hear more about your experience of "life being simple". Is there a feeling that goes with "life being simple"? i.e. light, or relaxed?

You are only being asked to drop the personal label of "I am" in this exercise in order to make the comparison. In everyday life you will of course continue to use the labels as you have always done, whether they are thoughts or spoken out loud in conversation. The labels will no longer be taken as literal. In conventional every-day life we need those labels in order for consensus reality to function, but there are a lot of unexplored assumptions being made, including the one about being a 'separate, independent, autonomous self'.

3. The labeling clearly doesn't change any of what's happening in the moment, but it does affect the sensations in the body in the form of emotions.

OK, that is great you noticed this.

4. Yes, actually. I didn't notice much of what was happening in my body when labeling experience with "I am", but I did notice the slight sense of ease when "I am" was dropped from the descriptions. Like a bit of tightness released. Breathing became slower as well, and more down in the belly than up in the chest.

YES! :)

Here is an exercise that carries on from the last one. Please take the labels of 'truth/lie' lightly, we are not looking for any kind of absolute truth, we are once again looking to compare about how we feel when we are not coming from a place of congruence with what we say and what we feel compared with when we are.

HOW TO DISTINGUISH TRUTH FROM A LIE

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes, there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, but at that moment you might have been grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you 'lied', "I'm fine."

In conventional or consensus reality we are not going to be airing everything that is going on in our lives, but it is important that we become aware of our inner state of body sensations. While the body sensations are true, meaning that our direct experience of them is real, the way we interpret them can be misleading.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled, and this last point is the most important.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies can be felt in the upper body, often in the heart, solar plexus, as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.
What you felt in the exercise above when you dropped the label "I am...."


First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what body sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body sensations (not interpretations) you felt. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

Also FYI "Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body sensation, not the sensation itself. For the sensation itself the question would be: How does 'peaceful' feel in the body?

Do you see that?

Do you see the difference between Actual Sensation & the thought interpretation of Sensation?
Interpretation is always an overlay of thought connected to a direct experience of body sensation.

Let me know how you get on with this.

Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

I would love to hear more about your experience of "life being simple". Is there a feeling that goes with "life being simple"? i.e. light, or relaxed?

It's a thought that comes up sometimes after hearing Joseph Goldstein say something like it. Something like "all that will ever happen in life will be simply a sight, smell... etc.". The actual direct experience of it is very rare, but if I relax into experience and the thought pops up, I feel giddy realising the joke of making it all so much more complicated. There's a bubbling, tingling sensation in my chest.
Very quickly after that there's a deep sadness and tears that come up. A heavy, sinking feeling. Like a vice gripping my heart, a squeeze, a painful tightness. The accompanying thoughts of how all the suffering I'm going through is so unnecessary and, I guess, meaningless. Like an idea of regret.
But yes, these are all just elaborations and not simply the direct experience of life being simple. I'll see if I can notice experiencing it directly today at work and then get back to you about the rest of your message later!

Have a nice day,

Nicky

[Noro]

Hi Nicky,

Thanks for sharing with your last post.

It's a thought that comes up sometimes after hearing Joseph Goldstein say something like it. Something like "all that will ever happen in life will be simply a sight, smell... etc.". The actual direct experience of it is very rare, but if I relax into experience and the thought pops up, I feel giddy realising the joke of making it all so much more complicated. There's a bubbling, tingling sensation in my chest.

Beautiful!

Very quickly after that there's a deep sadness and tears that come up. A heavy, sinking feeling. Like a vice gripping my heart, a squeeze, a painful tightness. The accompanying thoughts of how all the suffering I'm going through is so unnecessary and, I guess, meaningless. Like an idea of regret.

Yes, thought comes back on line as do sensations in the body needing to be felt. It can be bit of a roller coaster ride and simply the way things go.

But yes, these are all just elaborations and not simply the direct experience of life being simple. I'll see if I can notice experiencing it directly today at work and then get back to you about the rest of your message later!

Yes, exactly!! And there's nothing wrong with the elaborations, they are also part of it all and the direct experiencing allows this to be clearly seen.


Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Hi Rowena,

Thanks for responding so kindly to what I've shared. I feel very encouraged to keep practicing seeing that everything just is part of experience, and there's not me in control of any of it.

Here's the rest of my reply to your earlier message:

In everyday life you will of course continue to use the labels as you have always done, whether they are thoughts or spoken out loud in conversation. The labels will no longer be taken as literal.

Thank you for the clarification! It makes sense.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?
I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?
Please report back with what body sensations (not interpretations) you felt. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

Remembering a lie really brings up strong bodily sensations. Mostly in the belly, where it resembles the sensation of falling. Or dropping down on a roller coaster. I guess I would describe it as a contraction around the stomach area and a sense of lightness. Unpleasantly light. There's a bit of nausea as well, and a contraction of the throat.
Lightheadedness comes up too, and a quickening of the breath.
There's a ton of energy too, which I recognise from when I experience fear and the need to fight/flee. It feels like a sort of tingling in the legs and arms. Not entirely unpleasant.

Do you see the difference between Actual Sensation & the thought interpretation of Sensation?

It's quite striking how strongly the body responds! And I tried to name the actual sensation, even if I also elaborated for clarification.

I hope this is what you meant by your exercise!

With gratitude,

Nicky