State or Realization?

[Lectiod]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
When looking, there is no self to be found besides thoughts that have the words/texturing of I/Me/Mine. There is not a core action-taker calling the shots. Perception happens but there is no driving force making decisions about that perception or what to perceive next.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for someone to talk to about the experiences arising. There are still many thoughts of I/Me/Mine, but there does not seem to be any real basis for those thoughts. There is a lot of confusion, uncertainty, doubt, etc about whether this experience is a state that will pass or a true recognition.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Someone pointing in the right direction. Help understanding this experience. Someone to talk to, to externalize towards. Help. Perhaps a friend if all goes well. Reminders to not get lost in conceptualizing experience into something it is not. The presence and insight of someone who has crossed the gate.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Started with Thich Nhat Hanh style mindfulness, then towards "pragmatic dharma" circles and r/StreamEntry, started reading Thanissaro, Analayo, the Pali cannon. Have had bliss style/bright white light and bubbly body feelings in deeper meditation. Got fed up with the indirectness, found Jed McKenna. Was drawn in by the simplicity but pushed away by the nihilism. Have tried vipassana style meditation, koans, mu inquiry, mindfulness, satipatthana, anapanasati, brahmaviharas, all of it rang false/not useful for the goal of understanding truth directly in some way. Seeking is still strong, I statements are common in thinking, and often slip out unconsciously. When looking, it is blindingly obvious that there is no doer to be found in action, perception, sensation, but when not looking the sense of a doer returns.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Lectiod]

An update on the current experiences arising:

Working through the stages in the LU book multiple times daily currently, up to step 5. There was a very intense experience that arose during step 3, when relating the imagining of spoon/kitchen/unicorn to the imagining of self. It all seemed so obvious and huge waves of simultaneous laughter and crying bubbled up, and the entire world appeared full of wonder. It was so starkly clear that all of these "I" thoughts were something akin to a ball of yarn, appearing to be solid but completely core-less and empty when it's unraveled and looked at clearly.

Since then, especially with hearing but to a lesser degree with other senses, there is a clarity and vividness to experience. Hearing is so present, and the idea that there is any hearer is laughable. There is clearly no self or I. "I" have been using "I" to communicate with the people near me as it facilitates things, but it rings false whenever said.

Even with all of this experience, there are still expectations about what liberation must be like, doubts that "I haven't gotten it yet", and seeking. When those experiences are directly looked at, they are also seen to be hollow, something that arises seemingly out of the void, and dissolves much the same. However, the seeking, doubt, and expectations are still active and frequent thoughts/emotions. In the LU book on pg70-71, there is a line

If you continue to get lost in the story, then it may be time to take a careful look at why and how that's happening.

That line resonates with something, but looking at that process has so far not revealed anything more than the above.

The ideas of volition and choice are clearly false when looked at, how could there possibly be a "me" to choose one thing over another. Things that appear to be decisions, when looked at closely, follow the structure of:

• Optionally, a thought about the future and what a "good decision" would look like
• The moment comes and an action happens
• Sensing of the experience of that action
• Conception of what that action was
• Application of label: "I did [insert action]"
• More and more often, recognition of an I-thought and seeing the emptyness of the reference to I

The fact that there is conflict between the thoughts about seeking and expectations, "I have to do something more", "I must be doing this wrong", "That experience I had where 'I' stopped making sense was probably just me making stuff up", and the awareness that the process will simply continue as it must and resistance to the current state of things is confusing. Recently, the looking has been happening more and more directed at those stories, and resistance to those popping up into awareness has lowered.

Things will happen as they happen, and it also seems likely that there are blind-spots that could do with some more looking at. If anyone has any thoughts, please advise. May post more updates if things change in a way that seems important for a potential guide to know.

[graceabounds]

Hello Lectiod (is that what I should call you?),

I am happy to be alongside you in this exploration.
Since the steps in the book have been bearing fruit, I would say continue with them in parallel to conversation here.

How are things looking today, right now? Is there a separate self at all? Has there ever been?

Any 'blind spots' you would like to ask about?

In gratitude,
Becca

[Lectiod]

Hi Becca,

Thanks for reaching out! :)

Please call me Lain.

Will continue running through the steps in the book.

How are things looking today, right now?

That is a good question. Things have been more intense, more 'here' in some way. Trying to describe life seems almost futile in a way.
In this instant.. Thoughts, hearing, interpretation, typing, embarassment, calm, patterns/waves of bodily tension and relaxation. The feeling of the keyboard, contact. Hair touching face.
Sensations seem to bounce back and forth from 'in here' to 'out there' to 'out where?' back to 'in here' and so on.

Is there a separate self at all? Has there ever been?

Very much no. There are many thoughts arising that reify self, but the 'actual self' is nowhere to be found. It seems to just be/have been a self-referential (ha) nest of thoughts. It doesn't seem possible to directly verify that it has never existed except by inference from the experience of now to the remembered experience of the past, but the same seems overwhelmingly likely.

Any 'blind spots' you would like to ask about?

Adyashanti was recommended, and reading that has been valuable in dropping expectations about what's 'happening to me', however based on reading the FAQ, disclaimer, and a few other chats it seems that it is recommended that other teachings are set aside for the duration of this guiding period, is that accurate?

The intensity of awareness of no-doer and no-separate-self has been becoming less stark day by day, and many narratives have been popping up. Eg "I'm not good enough for this", "I must be engaging in self-deception", "There's no way this experience is real when I know people who've meditated for decades and haven't had an experience like this", "What if it all goes away and I'm just normal again", etc. Recognition of these as thoughts/stories that aren't true to what experience is like now has been popping up more frequently, but even then there's more doubt that pops up around lack of control of that process (and then the doubt gets looked at for who could possibly control things), and on and on. Is there something missing? Any recommendations for alterations?

Similarly, there is a strong desire for reassurance that this is just the process and the experience is normal for the process of liberation unfolding, which then gets looked at as mentioned about, and there it goes again wheeeeee. It's getting more intuitive to not buy in, but getting lost in stories does still happen with frequency that is unpleasant. There has been a fair amount of trauma previously as well, which has not seemed to make an appearance except for obliquely through these narratives. There is a sense of waiting for the other shoe to drop, for 'everything to come crashing down around me and to be totally destroyed'.

The 'sense of doer' (read: thoughts the doer is real) have been getting more frequent, but easier to observe without getting caught up in them. Thoughts on that?

Lots of questions arise about timeline, progress etc. If any insight on that seems like it'd be uself to share, please do. However if that seems to be not useful/slippery ego then please disregard.

Any thoughts, questions, insight is absolutely welcome. Lots of embarrasment is arising about whether this set of answers was thorough enough, or too long, or wrong in some way. If any adjustments are warranted please share.

I am overwhelmed by the generosity shown by the sharing of your time to help guide, thank you so so much.

-Lain

[Lectiod]

Hi Becca,

Last night, recognition of an extremely intense fear-thought-belief complex presented itself. There was some way in which looking into that, allowing it to be fully felt and the worldviee underlying that thought seen clearly (at least as clearly as possible, still more to go probably given how deeply ingrained and present in every part of life is right now) led into many other deeply held beliefs, and the connection between those was previously unknown.

Some of the topics that came up are: childhood trauma, loneliness, fear of parents, the relationship between fear/pain and love, inherent badness and unworthiness, sense if needing to be a better person, feeling trapped, and probably more but that's everything large.

The world has felt different since last night. More clarity and calm. Identification/stuckness has come up less. Uncertain if this will last or fade, but more okay with that than seems likely to have happened previously.

Please share if this is useful context or out of scope, seemed relevant.
-Laine

[graceabounds]

Hello Lain,

Everything will come up to be seen… and it appears there is minimal resistance to that process which is great. It is disorienting in that the usual self structure that would ‘handle’ them is no longer business as usual, so there is a particular closeness and intensity which is new.

Based on what you have written here I think Adyashanti will be quite supportive and not necessary to put aside. When someone has no embodied, direct experience of all that these words point to it can be supportive to not give more fuel to the mind about how this all should be or should you. But he provides a good roadmap for what is next after clear seeing, especially in the book ‘The End of Your World.’

So here are some queries to investigate:

Sensations seem to bounce back and forth from 'in here' to 'out there' to 'out where?' back to 'in here' and so on.

From what position do the sensations appear to bounce? Can a boundary be found between in here and out there? Is there a residual location or mental picture for the center of ‘me’?

It doesn't seem possible to directly verify that it has never existed except by inference from the experience of now to the remembered experience of the past, but the same seems overwhelmingly likely.

Aha. So if not able to be verified, and it does not exist now, can it be said to have ever existed?

Is ‘past’ existing anywhere besides thought?
Is a memory thought different from any other thought?

there's more doubt that pops up around lack of control of that process (and then the doubt gets looked at for who could possibly control things), and on and on.

Is doubt embodied in some way? If so what is the direct experience of doubt?

There is a sense of waiting for the other shoe to drop, for 'everything to come crashing down around me and to be totally destroyed'.

Also normal, after all we are turning everything upside down here. But since there never was anyone running the show to begin with, is anything actually lost?


In gratitude,
Becca

[Lectiod]

Hi Becca,

Everything will come up to be seen… and it appears there is minimal resistance to that process which is great. It is disorienting in that the usual self structure that would ‘handle’ them is no longer business as usual, so there is a particular closeness and intensity which is new.

Thank you for your input. That tracks very well with the experiences arising.

Based on what you have written here I think Adyashanti will be quite supportive and not necessary to put aside. When someone has no embodied, direct experience of all that these words point to it can be supportive to not give more fuel to the mind about how this all should be or should you. But he provides a good roadmap for what is next after clear seeing, especially in the book ‘The End of Your World.’

That book has been immensely helpful in accepting and allowing this process to unfold as it must, and the emphasis on honesty and sincerity was exactly what was needed to snap out of some ego-traps that came up.

From what position do the sensations appear to bounce? Can a boundary be found between in here and out there? Is there a residual location or mental picture for the center of ‘me’?

There's a location/picture kind of both 'inside my head' that the thoughts about inside seem to be referring to, but looking for that location and the boundary between in and out, it is unfindable. In fact it seems to have never been there. Having a hard time describing what sensation feels like right now, it's all more immediate. Things feel 'here', not as in opposed to 'there' but more like 'there' isn't a meaningful thing that makes sense to conceptualize. Also, when paying close attention, different senses feel the same in some underlying way. Sight and sound etc seem to be occurring in the same 'place' for lack of a better word.

Aha. So if not able to be verified, and it does not exist now, can it be said to have ever existed?

Is ‘past’ existing anywhere besides thought?
Is a memory thought different from any other thought?

Oh. Oh wow. No, it can't. There's no difference between those and any other thoughts. None of it is anywhere but right now. The memory of 'where I was 5 minutes ago' has no more substance than 'I want a burger'. Nothing can be honestly said to exist outside of the perception of it now, and there's no telling if that actually intercepts with 'reality' in any meaningful way. It doesn't make any sense to assert something 'existed then but not now' because there is no 'not now' to be found in direct experience. It's all now. Past and Future are useful ways to communicate, plan, infer, etc but none of it is real. This is extremely disorienting.

There's no way to even say 'now is changing' because any reference point to which one could use to compare change is only a thought with no substance. How do people function like this? This is very scary but also fine? How could things be not fine when the only way for things to be is as they are now and the only way now could be is as it is? Extremely confusing and disorienting. Books and talks and stuff talk about this but the felt-sense of it being real and true and actually experienced is something totally different. Whoa.

Is doubt embodied in some way? If so what is the direct experience of doubt?

Yes, it is. Heart beating fast. A sense of tightness in chest, throat, back of neck, inside head. An urge to move/fidget. The feeling of being pulled forwards by the chest.

Also normal, after all we are turning everything upside down here. But since there never was anyone running the show to begin with, is anything actually lost?

No, nothing is lost. There was nothing to lose. There are thoughts that something is lost, but nowhere in experience is there a 'lost selfhood'.

The thought comes up that it is odd to know that to be true as soon as the question is asked (internally or externally) but have the thought continue to appear anyways. Perhaps a mental habit that will fade with time and looking. There doesn't even seem to be a who that is doing the knowing, knowing just happens.

Blown away,
Lain

[graceabounds]

Hello Lain,

Very precise noticing. Beautiful.

Also, when paying close attention, different senses feel the same in some underlying way. Sight and sound etc seem to be occurring in the same 'place' for lack of a better word.

Yes, ultimately we could strip things down to the core labels of sight or sound or touch, but it is still defining and separating. They were never actually separate in the way thought claims.

Going to ask that you explore that word place too. Right now is there even a “place”? Or is “place” already one step too far?

It's all now. Past and Future are useful ways to communicate, plan, infer, etc but none of it is real. This is extremely disorienting.

There's no way to even say 'now is changing' because any reference point to which one could use to compare change is only a thought with no substance. How do people function like this? This is very scary but also fine? How could things be not fine when the only way for things to be is as they are now and the only way now could be is as it is? Extremely confusing and disorienting.

Yes. You’re reacting to the loss of reference points the system used to stabilize itself.

Without referring to memory or thought, is anything wrong right now?

What is “scary” made of? How is it known?

If there is no reference point…
no past…
no future…
what needs to be “figured out”?

Get out into nature. How do the leaves and the birds and the grass and the tides and animals function like this? :)

Big love,
Becca

[Lectiod]

Hi Becca,

Sorry for the late reply, busy day today.

Going to ask that you explore that word place too. Right now is there even a “place”? Or is “place” already one step too far?

There's an 'appearing' that seems to happen on its own, but there's no location to find where that happens. With attention on that experience, trying to describe things in the context of a space where sensations can happen doesn't seem to make sense. There's still thoughts of relative distance between "body" and "wall" for example, but trying to find what that thought refers to in direct experience doesn't lead to anything. Even "things get smaller when far away" is just another thought.

Without referring to memory or thought, is anything wrong right now?

Without refering to memory or thought, there's only sensations, and nothing can be inherently wrong about a sensation. Wrong, when looked at, appears to be another thought-memory-emotion complex comparing what is happening now to memories of what has happened previously.

What is “scary” made of? How is it known?

Scary is a thought of "off-kilter" or "unstable" along with a thought of "wrong". Those thoughts have become less frequent as reorienting to this perspective has progressed and things continue to be ok.

It is usually noticed as a thought relating to a "presentness" or "immediacy" of sensations. The intensity of sensory experience has increased drastically over the past 8 or so days since that first intense experience of "self" being missing. The only sensations that tended to be as present or intense previously were sensations of pain, so it tracks that it would seem unconciously threatening.

The awareness that anything seeming not ok or wrong is another thought-feeling-emotion complex has become more frequent as well, and is more reliably coming up on the tail of any thought that something is wrong.

If there is no reference point…
no past…
no future…
what needs to be “figured out”?

Nothing. There is nothing but the present experience. There's no figuring out now because attempting to "figure it out" inevitably makes it into a thought that is not in direct sense experience of now.

Why do thoughts seem to pull away from now? Like all thought would have to be happening now, but getting "absorbed in thought" seems to pull experience away from now, where getting "absorbed in hearing" is a pulling of awareness deeper into present experience.

Get out into nature. How do the leaves and the birds and the grass and the tides and animals function like this? :)

Everything just seems to flow. There's no need for there to be a "how to function" everything just... goes. In that context the question stops being a sensible question.

[graceabounds]

Hi Lain,

Do you feel urgency in replying ‘late’? This cleaning up of beliefs will take the time it takes as things naturally flow… the most important thing is to look.

Why do thoughts seem to pull away from now? Like all thought would have to be happening now, but getting "absorbed in thought" seems to pull experience away from now, where getting "absorbed in hearing" is a pulling of awareness deeper into present experience.

Slow down. Do they actually pull anything away? is this another interpretation layered on top?

There is a difference between a thought arising, which is direct experience, and the content of a thought, which is fantasy. Does that make sense?

When thoughts appear did you actually leave anything? Could you leave anything? Or did a new experience (thought arising) simply replace the previous one (sound, sensation)?

When there is sound… there is sound.
When there is sensation… there is sensation.
When there is thought… there is thought.
Where is this separate thing called “awareness” that is aware of them, ranking them?

Search for it the same way you saw through “past” and “future.”

Is there anything there other than what’s already appearing?

-Becca

[Lectiod]

Hi Becca,

Do you feel urgency in replying ‘late’? This cleaning up of beliefs will take the time it takes as things naturally flow… the most important thing is to look.

There is a feeling of urgency. It manifests as a pulling, tight sensation in the chest and head. The accompanying thoughts have a content something like "I'll get in trouble", "I'll be a disappointment", "I'm doing a bad job", etc. Those thoughts don't actually relate to anything real. Thank you for pointing that belief set out. The phrasing of "cleaning up beliefs" resonates, it's fitting for what this process has felt like so far.

Slow down. Do they actually pull anything away? is this another interpretation layered on top?

Ah. No, there's nothing to pull away or anything there to pull away from. The interpretation, when looked at, is a moral thought about an imagined "narrowing" of experience. In much the same way as hearing, a more involved attention on a particular thing seems to replace perception of other things. However there's nothing special about thinking there as opposed to "other senses".

There is a difference between a thought arising, which is direct experience, and the content of a thought, which is fantasy. Does that make sense?

Yes! There is a experience of "thinking" in the same way there is a experience of "hearing" or "seeing" that is different from the ideas of the thought, seen, and heard. Thinking, the (process? event? happening?) has a feeling to it that isn't the content of the particular thought, just like hearing has a feeling to it that isn't the "content" or idea of what the sound is/means.

When thoughts appear did you actually leave anything? Could you leave anything? Or did a new experience (thought arising) simply replace the previous one (sound, sensation)?

There's nothing to leave. There isn't a place where sensation happens that can be left, it's all experience, even if that experience is of being "involved" in a thought that doesn't relate to anything findable in direct experience. The new experience does simply replace the previous one, with no "pulling away" as there's nowhere to pull to/from.

Where is this separate thing called “awareness” that is aware of them, ranking them?

Search for it the same way you saw through “past” and “future.”

Trying to describe the experience coming up when looking into this question is hard. The awareness(subject or object) is not there to find outside a thought that it must exist. Awareness (verb/event) is a generalized term for an experience occurring. The ranking happens as a thought, there is no continuous or inherently existent "awareness" capable of taking an action such as ranking experiences.

Looking at experience, there does seem to often be a sort of "focal point" or "foreground/background"? Actually, looking more precisely, sometimes when an experience occurs there is a thought that happens to that the sensation (sound for example) and conception of that sensation (a fan running) has been previously happening continuously, but any time that "background" is looked for a new experience occurs that is then the experience happening in that moment. When very relaxed, sometimes the thought-feeling of a focal point seems to fade, and there is a more simple experience that seems broader? Almost like a gestalt of sensory experiences being experienced in parallel rather than one/some being the focus and others being disregarded.

Is there anything there other than what’s already appearing?

No, it now seems clear that the only thing that could honestly be called awareness is the current experience that is happening now. There is no awareness object that is separate from the sensation of hardness and pliancy of the keyboard right now. No awareness object that is separate from the sound of the fan. Not separate from thoughts of "the person over there". It's not there to be found.

There are thoughts occurring that "there's more that I'm missing, go deeper" but the path deeper is not clear. Going to sit with and inquire into that story further. Things will unfold as they must, in the time it takes, as it couldn't be otherwise.

[graceabounds]

Very good Lain,

I’m going to give you a series of questions to see what beliefs still could use some cleaning up. This will reveal anything that is being missed and perhaps point to where to go next. Please look into each and continue to report immediately from the raw experience itself, not a concept or philosophy about it.

Please use the quote function as you have been so I know which answer applies to which question. No need to rush answering, but also no need to sit and ponder and agonize over the ‘right’ answer either, haha.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

8) Anything to add?

In gratitude,
Becca

[Lectiod]

No need to rush answering, but also no need to sit and ponder and agonize over the ‘right’ answer either, haha.

Haha thank you! The reassurance is appreciated :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is not, and was not. Not only is there no separate entity, there is nowhere for that entity to arise. When looked for, there's only an experience of an "area of void" for lack of better words. Looking "behind" thoughts of self shows this hollowness to them where there is nothing, which is rather pleasant as opposed to the scary connotations of hollow.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is a thought-feeling habit that labels experiences after they occur. It starts as part of a habitual process to reinforce the illusion, almost piggybacking off of the presence of an experience.

The general pathway seems to be something like:
1) Experience (hearing)
2) Recognizing/conceptualizing: memory/labeling process, checking for threats, etc (that sound is a train)
3) Self-thought (I heard a train)

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Very relieving honestly. All of these shame (and other) narratives aren't about "me", there is no me for them to be about. I-thoughts have been less common, but are still present. However, they have become very obviously just thoughts much more quickly and easily.

Additionally, feelings seem to flow through experience faster and are less sticky, while still being felt more deeply. It seems that having less self narrative in the way or it being taken less seriously of "I should/shouldn't feel <x> way" leads to a much more honest and authentic sensory experience, including both the somatic and thought-based portions of feelings.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

There were several moments of shift with distinct before and after. The initial shift happened when going through the exercises in the LU book, comparing the spoon/kitchen/unicorn imaginings to the "experience of self" (ha!). The spoon analogy in particular. That shift has, ever since, made it clear that self is an illusion, often just by default, and always when looked for.

Further shifts have happened when examining beliefs that necessitate a separate self that have each helped to further "break the habit" of self-ing on particular experiences, but those shifts were only enabled by the initial before/after shift. This conversation has been immensely helpful in identifying some of the self-labeling habits that were most common and consistent.

Some of the bigger secondary shifts were "concepts of time happen now", "trauma/shame thoughts don't reference a real entity", and "awareness is a verb/event not a subject or object".

5) Describe decision

Decision is an idea that is part of the self-illusion. Decision requires a decider-self subject, which does not and has never existed. It can be a useful way to describe a set of events, but is never inherently true or accurate.

intention

Intentions are thought-feeling events that can arise. They may or may not "lead" to actions, but that is a result of cause and effect, not any "intender decided to follow or create an intention".

free will

Whose will? In what context is there a being that could choose to exercise something that could be meaninfully called "free will"? The idea is like trying to do a thing other than what you will do. It doesn't make sense on the face of it when actually looked at. It's a thought that arises because the idea of free will is necessary in order for a separate self to exist.

choice

Again, whose choice? Choosing to do something that isn't what "you will do" reveals that choice is just another thought.

control

Depends on the meaning of the word. There is a very limited meaning of control in which it could make sense (eg "the steering wheel controls the direction of the car"), but all that truly is, is another way of stating cause -> effect. There is no controller-self that is exerting control to be found in direct experience. Actions, intents, thoughts, experiences, they all simply arise.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

Things happen because the conditions for that thing to happen are present. Typing this sentence happens because the conditions for this sentence being typed were/are present. And now the conditions for this sentence, etc etc.

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

In a true sense, nothing. There is no me to be responsible for anything. In a relative sense, actions have effects and the beneficiality or lack thereof of those effects is important. A thought of responsibilty can arise when imagining a past or future action, that can condition that action to happen or not.

For example: there is no me to be responsible for washing the dishes from the absolute perspective. However, washing the dishes is "my responsibility" in the sense that washing the dishes can lead to positive future experiences for "me" and "my housemates", and "I" agreed to do this load of dishes.

8) Anything to add?

Anything missing? Any blindspots or lack of perspective happening?

What now? Does this relate to any of the models/maps (eg 4 paths and fruits, or ten fetters of buddhism)? To be honest if this was the whole shebang that wouldn't be an issue, but there are parts of life where it is clear that there are deeper and more full ways to live through the experiential truth of these realizations. If there are signposts on the way knowing about them would be nice. It feels different from the previous seeking behaviors, as it's clear there's no one to seek and nothing to find; being more here and full and present and direct sounds pretty dang neat though.

So so much gratitude for your help and guidance throughout this whole process. The continued experiences of release, realization, opening, and being ok with not understanding something have been life-changing. My partner has noticed and keeps commenting on how much more present I am, how I'm better at letting things go, how I seem more relaxed and ok even when life is hard and emotions are unpleasant, etc, and it's made a huge positive impact on our life together. (The I-statements here are a useful way to explain this, but not truly accurate, as we've been discussing this whole time haha)

-Laine

[graceabounds]

Hello!

Is there such a thing as cause & effect? How would it be known?

It does appear that the gateless gate has been crossed, but as you already know, there is no gate and no one to cross it...
... and as you suspect, this is just the beginning (not the whole shebang)...
;)

What I would advise is to enjoy this phase we call falling. There is a section at the end of the LU book about it and here is a video that I think is simply a read of that portion of it:
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w?si=_wvyMnpzghxInE33


Regarding what could emerge next the fetters does offer a framework of which I am familiar, this is useful for some to orient. The process of looking is similar, and some of these other illusions may fall as suddenly as this first one while others may take more time. It too is a process that flows on its own.

Soon you’ll receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest. Your username will change from green to blue and this thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

It has been a pleasure to walk beside you here. Of course it is not the end of our conversation. Here to support as things continue to evolve. If you have any questions or hiccups at all, you are welcome to drop a line here or email me directly any time. Will send you a DM.

Much love,
Becca

[Lectiod]

Is there such a thing as cause & effect? How would it be known?

Ha! Oh that's pretty good! Illusions on illusions on illusions 😂

What I would advise is to enjoy this phase we call falling.

Copy that, it's been pretty swell so far :)

If you have any questions or hiccups at all, you are welcome to drop a line here or email me directly any time.

Will do, thank you so much!

Truly, none of the expectations matched what is, as is always said. Very excited for what is to be known more intimately. Extreme gratitude and appreciation for you and the existence of this community. Thank you.

-Laine