Seeking guidance in direct seeing and dissolving the selfing mechanism

[Elad]

Ps. Take as much time with this as you want. A lot is happening in your life and we are not in a hurry. I think you are ready for LU final questions after this, but we are in no hurry to get there. Enjoy the exercises, take your time, and you don't have to answer it all in one post.

[Milamoh]

Thank you Elad

There is so much seeing happening, like puzzle pieces ... things that didnt make sense .. are sensed into now... noticing of what you said ... philosophy ... that attention was indeed in head... so much seeing of this

Thank you
With loooots of humbled (trying to describe whats happening in the body) beingness
Mila

[Elad]

Wonderful!

[Elad]

Dear Mila,

I will go on a retreat for about 8 days from Friday. So we have a couple of days more to exchange here and then will have a little break.

[Milamoh]

Greetings Elad

I hope you are well. For some reason I missed the email about the 8 day retreat - I just logged in to check-in and I am glad I did. I hope the retreat goes well.

There is a sense here that there is processing happening or a lull of sorts however the early morning life has more intimacy/closeness to something very different from the 8 to 5 worklife... so those hours are used more for stillness

not much else is happening except thoughts about being aware of thoughts, thoughts about looking and really looking and thoughts about making time to tilt the scale on weekends and create more momentum to bypass the 8 to 5 consensus reality that keeps the me alive

Just a check in. Jesus and the sound of "Bodhisattva avalokitesvara" have always been loved here, its not known why

Kind Warm regards
Mila

[Elad]

Jesus and Avelokiteshvara touch this heart too. Did you take a look at the exercises I shared with you? Did they reveal something new? Or it has bot been in the flow yet?

[Milamoh]

Greetings Elad

Hope all is well with you. I struggled with the system yesterday and now am wondering if its the reason I missed the questions. I was so relieved when I read your message early hours yesterday and found them. There was ofcourse lots of thoughts around how come and conspiracy /paranoid kind of thoughts eg ego hiding things from a "me" hahaha

I have been using the enlightment quotes and have become so so conscious of the use of "I"

I smiled at your/the comment

"Jesus and Avelokiteshvara touch this heart too"

There is such an attachment here too peace love kindness gentleness etc.

Did you take a look at the exercises I shared with you? Did they reveal something new? Or it has bot been in the flow yet?

I had missed them for whatever reason. I am busy with them now and will report back - I know you will be away so please dont mind me if I send an feedback here and there regardless

I hope all goes well with the retreat

Warm regards
Mila

[Milamoh]

Greetings Elad

Hope all is well with you. I struggled with the system yesterday and now am wondering if its the reason I missed the questions. I was so relieved when I read your message early hours yesterday and found them. There was ofcourse lots of thoughts around how come and conspiracy /paranoid kind of thoughts eg ego hiding things from a "me" hahaha

I have been using the enlightment quotes and have become so so conscious of the use of "I"

I smiled at your/the comment

"Jesus and Avelokiteshvara touch this heart too"

There is such an attachment here too peace love kindness gentleness etc.

Did you take a look at the exercises I shared with you? Did they reveal something new? Or it has bot been in the flow yet?

I had missed them for whatever reason. I am busy with them now and will report back - I know you will be away so please dont mind me if I send an feedback here and there regardless

I hope all goes well with the retreat

Warm regards
Mila

[Milamoh]

Greetings Elad
I hope all is well with you. I do remember that you are at the retreat. This is just interim feedback

Time Exercise

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all)
somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment
(now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward
on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?

No there is now, now, now, now

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

No – any movement to next came as thought

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

No – this also happened in thoughts

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

its not, its present now

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

No

How long does the ‘now’ last?

as long as now lasts

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

starts now and ends now

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

now in thought

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

Thought

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

thoughts about time

Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like,
and each time inquire:-
How is the movement controlled?

There is an impulse – like a force or conglomeration of energy pushing the movement (not sure how to express it) like condensed senses

Does a thought control it?

It took a while for clarity to appear – if it did at all. The seeing clarified when somehow the thought “hand don’t move” and the hand did … but there was another “thought saying its because you missed a thought” or “you must have missed a thought: AND right there with this thought there was seeing that thoughts were just arising about the hand and suddenly there was subtle clarification that thought came after – so that intention in the form of “condensed” senses became clear…

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought
MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

This is unclear – was sticky even at the previous question but I cant find a decision – what was found but through thought was a story about what happened some questions before this question that prompted the action – but no immediate decision In short - It is not known

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

What was experienced is a hand moving, no chooser, no decider thus who chose is not known

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or
down?

nope

Nature Exercise

(there is a need to do these again

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how
clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the
time.
Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts
come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.
Notice that everything is part of one movement.

This is not clear, there is a sense that movement is movement , its not clear when "one" is placed before the movement , there is a sense that something is being transmitted but its really not clear

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you
and life itself. If yes where is the boundary?

No boundary – but thought interfered – Pls let "me" describe what was found so perhaps the fixation can be clarified, with open eyes - there are thoughts about things objects and - will redo its not clear

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

There seems to be life and objects … no inside and outside

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

this question is not clear

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

no - there is sensing

Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

the sensing is, also expressed as seeing

Is there anything which is not just happening?

no - this is clear when attention is not focused - oh is unfocused attention the one movement that was not being seen above? hmm

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

I have to go out again


Warm regards
Mila

[Milamoh]

Greetings Elad

GEEEEEEEWAAAAAASSSSSSSSS .... I think (thought, even sound) have now passed the gateless gate... (may become belief if this thought keeps arising and seeing doesnt remain) - all story. Please accept these revised versions as I keep looking

Hand up and down and up and down

Object and movement (is movement this appearance of one side then appearance of the other) and then sensation ?

My gosh I cant even type ... the thoughts about what this means are just rushing in

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all)
somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment
(now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward
on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.
But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
No there is now, now, now, now

There is just what is here objects , movement, sound, sensations - my gosh Elaaaadddd

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
No – any movement to next came as thought

there is just what is here now .. objects, movement , sensations sound, and then thought making meaning of it all

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
No – this also happened in thoughts

no only what appears in that moment and then thoughts making meaning of it all

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Its not moving, even with the change from afternoon to dark “so to speak” I was experience what was in that moment and then through thought reflecting what had been but now was always now

Its not moving, there is just movement, and meaning made of the movement in relation to the objects and sound

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
No
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Infinity

– its all there is


Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like,
and each time inquire:-
How is the movement controlled?
There is an impulse – like a force or conglomeration of energy pushing the movement (not sure how to express it) like condensed senses

the movement is not controlled

theres appearance of the palm then the other side and that seems to create movement and then there is a sensation .. appearance of both sides of the hand coupled with the sensation. There is no controller in my direct experience

Does a thought control it?
It took a while for clarity to appear – if it did at all. The seeing clarified when somehow the thought “hand don’t move” and the hand did … but there was another “thought saying its because you missed a thought” or “you must have missed a thought: AND right there with this thought there was seeing that thoughts were just arising about the hand and suddenly there was subtle clarification that thought came after – so that intention in the form of “condensed” senses became clear

There is seeing now that it definitely does not

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
No
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought
MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
This is unclear – was sticky even at the previous question but I cant find a decision – what was found but through thought was a story about what happened some questions before this question that prompted the action – but no immediate decision

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise? What was experienced is a hand moving, no chooser, no decider

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or
down?
nope


Nature Exercise (there is a need to do these again

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how
clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the
time.
Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts
come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.
Notice that everything is part of one movement.
Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you
and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary? No boundary – but thought interfered – will try again
Is there an inside and an outside of Life? There seems to be life and objects … no inside and outside

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole

? The question is really confusing - it cant even be understood now, but what I will share is whithin the objects , sound, movement (I think objects appearing and disappearing ) there is also space, stillness, emptiness and I cant say its not included, its within

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

no its all here now appearing as objects sound movement space stillness

Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

the witness is happening here now - mind wants to say it is the stillness the space the in between things

Is there anything which is not just happening?
no.. things are just this - what they are ...

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.
WOW

Seeing disappears in the evenings and seems to be clear in the mornings

Sending warm regars
Mila

[Elad]

Mila, I'm back!

How are things? Sounds from the description like it is seen that there is no separate self, no me doing thoughts, actions, feelings, choices and so forth. Is it true?

the witness is happening here now - mind wants to say it is the stillness the space the in between things

This is probably just a matter of language but - is there a witness? if yes, where is it, what form does it have? Does it have hair?

OR: No witness is found, just "witnessing" or "experiencing" as inherent in experience, without any "experiencer" or "witnesser"?


Re objects in the world - this is actually further down "the fetters" (to speak in a Buddhist model), not necessary for us to focus on here. We just want full clarity around the separate self.

But if you want to look more at the sense of objects, here is an exercise:


Looking at an Object


Wherever you are sitting right now, look for an object to use. Don’t pick up the object or
turn it around, only look at what can be seen without touching it or turning it.
Have one?
Now look at it and describe what you see. Give yourself a bit of time with it. Just look,
nothing else.
Done?
Now describe the back side of the object.
How is it known what the back side looks like?
What tells what it looks like?
How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?
Can this be known in direct experience?
Can an object be known at all?