Seeking guidance in direct seeing and dissolving the selfing mechanism

[Milamoh]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the character Mila, mom , student etc is made up of thoughts and doesnt exist. That things and life just happen but there is a force in the form of thought that claims the actions of what is happening and says happened to me or I am doing this or that. The same force labels everything in relation to it

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance in seeing through this character and relieving the tension the selfing mechanism creates here so that life flows freely. So am hoping to work with a guide the way I have seen it done, be held accountable to look into my beliefs and be challenged in my responses. Hoping to be assisted to join a movement of life that is releasing itself from being bound in suffering - suffering has just generally intensified- I have never really felt ok with myself in life and the more I seek the worse it seems to get - I hardly have a life anymore just work home work home, have added a few things like sowing just to try and bring balance and coherence but I realise now that the discomfort is so intense inside like theres no running away

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Challenge of all beliefs, the "I" here likes understanding and questioning so am hoping that can be allowed to the extend that the mind goes blank. There is a fear here - took me 4 or so years to reach out - I thought I could do it by the sidelines watch podcasts read books and be gentle on myself I have a belief that my system is sensitive, that I cant depend on anyone so I have to ensure am safe all the time simply because I often have perceptions others dont have then later realise I was on to something .. including physical sensing eg someone smoking around the corner and no one else but me smells the cigarrette so I do feel like I am not your typical normal

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I meditate daily with awaken the world, have done retreats with them, I am a member with angelo dilulo, have done dyads with awaken the world and global meditations

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Elad]

Hello Mila,

My name is Elad, I am a guide here, and I can start with you now.

Are you ready to start?

[Milamoh]

Hallo Elad

Thank you for availing yourself - my nerves just went up. Yes I am ready and I am grateful for your response

Mila

[Elad]

Hi Mila!

Great! I want to start with aknowledging the sense of not being able to depend on anyone and the experience of sometimes being different and sensing things that others don't. It is really important for this collaboration to be fruitful, that your system learns that you can be open and true to yourself in this collaboration, and that I will not be trying to make you deny your own experience, ever. I will only be asking questions and giving exercises that will support you to look freshly at your own experience and discover what is actually really there and what is not.

Can we agree that if you feel like your experience is being invalidated or you are being urged to ignore your own intuition or clarity, let me know?

I will send one more letter to you today (see below). That is a standard opening letter to get us started.

[Elad]

The basics of how this works is that I’ll give you questions and exercises to help you investigate whether there is a separate self. Your task is to look directly at your alive experience in the here and now and report on your experience without resorting to memory, thinking and imagination. Try to approach these exercises with “beginner’s mind,” setting aside everything you know about spiritual teachings, science and philosophy. In other words, don't "think about" what I ask. Use all questions and exercises as a door to LOOK AT what is actually there and what is not. Also, it is not about creating any special experience or dissolving any part of normal experience - including "selfing". Rather, the questions and exercises will help you to see what is already there in normal experience and what is not. It's all about looking closely at ordinary experience.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQs of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When you reply to a questions, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. This will make our dialogue easier to follow. Please watch the video below to learn how to use the quote function.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ


The website goes down at times. To avoid losing your work, you may find it helpful to copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there, and then copy and paste them to your thread.

Let’s try to post daily, if we can. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, just let me know. I’ll do so as well. If I don't seem to answer for more then 2 days, write to eladexplore1111@gmail.com - maybe there is some system error.

Let me know if you have any questions or anything else coming up wanting attention, in relation to this message and the FAQ!

[Milamoh]

Thank you for laying out how we will be communicating - I did wonder... something here wants to get this right and not loose or misuse this opportunity. Something here fears what the shedding process will look like for Mila and the body here, something here is judging all this thinking and calling it "lack and scarcity mentality" but after all is said - just grateful

Can we agree that if you feel like your experience is being invalidated or you are being urged to ignore your own intuition or clarity, let me know?

Yes, thank you for this. I immediately had goosebumps reading it – warm feeling… and thoughts “ I am held” – thank you. Perhaps I should indicate that I almost rewrote my sentence and changed it to “the body had warm feelings” or “there are warm feelings and goosebumps” … instead of “I immediately had ,,,blah blah … I almost. I am expressing this now so that you see the “I” that’s operating here … seems to be dodgy/loaded/spiritual ? Cause its not necessarily “my” immediate experience to bewithout the “I” if you know what I mean… (hahah)

Let me know if you have any questions or anything else coming up wanting attention, in relation to this message and the FAQ!

This statement - “Awakening from the story of you allows old patterns to drop away quickly” - in the FAQ’s puzzled me a bit … I was left wondering what it is that the old patterns are dropping away from? Especially because there is then another statement that says “Old habits, beliefs, programming and conditioning will very probably remain in place” … So I thought it must be from the force or volition of energy that keeps clotting or magnetising the thoughts into a subtle form or sensation? Hope am not confusing you with my questions
I appreciate your gentle care with me … your opening paragraph … no words…



Kind regards
Mila

[Elad]

Dear Mila

Thank you for laying out how we will be communicating - I did wonder... something here wants to get this right and not loose or misuse this opportunity. Something here fears what the shedding process will look like for Mila and the body here, something here is judging all this thinking and calling it "lack and scarcity mentality" but after all is said - just grateful

The sincerity and all the noticing here is great!

Can we agree that if you feel like your experience is being invalidated or you are being urged to ignore your own intuition or clarity, let me know?

Yes, thank you for this. I immediately had goosebumps reading it – warm feeling… and thoughts “ I am held” – thank you.

I am glad!

Perhaps I should indicate that I almost rewrote my sentence and changed it to “the body had warm feelings” or “there are warm feelings and goosebumps” … instead of “I immediately had ,,,blah blah … I almost. I am expressing this now so that you see the “I” that’s operating here … seems to be dodgy/loaded/spiritual ? Cause its not necessarily “my” immediate experience to bewithout the “I” if you know what I mean… (hahah)

Good with the curiosity about different ways of describing and the honesty that it is not clear what way feels right. Honesty and looking at the questions that will be given is the heart of the process. And in that, allowing what is not clear and not sure to be not clear and not sure is key!

Let me know if you have any questions or anything else coming up wanting attention, in relation to this message and the FAQ!

This statement - “Awakening from the story of you allows old patterns to drop away quickly” - in the FAQ’s puzzled me a bit … I was left wondering what it is that the old patterns are dropping away from? Especially because there is then another statement that says “Old habits, beliefs, programming and conditioning will very probably remain in place” … So I thought it must be from the force or volition of energy that keeps clotting or magnetising the thoughts into a subtle form or sensation? Hope am not confusing you with my questions

Absolutely valid questions! For now I think it will suffice to let go of expectations that seeing through the separate self will once and for all dissolve old patterns and imbalances. In 99.999% it doesn't - if not in a 100% of us. On the human level we are practically if not all a never-ending work in progress. Don't take my word for that either - believing and disbelieving is secondary here, can even be a disturbance either way. The main point is to let go of expecations and focus on getting to truth itself, rather then to the hoped for side effects of it.

I appreciate your gentle care with me … your opening paragraph … no words…

That is certainly the feeling and intention here. Lets keep communicating honestly to keep it this way!


Okay let's start.

Read the following sentence many times:


There is no separate self, no one in control, there never has been and never will be!


Every time you read it, slow or quick, out loud or quietly internally, see what happens. Just pay attention to what happens.

After doing it many times, write me what was seen, felt, discovered.

[Milamoh]

Read the following sentence many times:
There is no separate self, no one in control, there never has been and never will be!
Every time you read it, slow or quick, out loud or quietly internally, see what happens. Just pay attention to what happens.After doing it many times, write me what was seen, felt, discovered.

I noticed that there was sharper noticing,,, mind searching for something then getting lost in thoughts about what the implications of this statement means, I noticed that there were images of bodies moving around going about doing things. I am also noticing just now that I deleted a sentence that had “bodies controlled by the unseen” it was deleted because there was a realisation that “contolling” is exactly what the statement said there isn’t …. And then there was and still is thinking that there are beliefs here that there is controlling of bodies by an unseen force that is why – that sentence came first. Oh my mind is unfolding Ellad as I type this, am noticing thoughts about how I or there is thinking that movement is a controller … something about movement being directed by someone and I am noticing more and more how there is always a second “person” or thing or noticer when am writing to you correcting or fact checking everything … feel a bit crazy right now… but going back to what happened immediately after the uttering of the statement. I paused three or 4 times cause I seemed to sense sensations in my tummy ? at some point even a bit of nausea … and something around the face – like nausea or vagueness like dizziness,,, but the most obvious one for me above them all seems to be that there was energy focused on what was said yet nothing in my outside reality really changed. Everything I said above was internal in mind and sensations as I stated…
Mila wants to get this right … just heard neighnours talking and didn’t know what to make of the experience given what I was just uttering about there being no separate self
I had a long day but will continue with this and more so in the morning when its quiet – in the early hours before my meditation and after – and I hope its ok if I write to you again then even if you haven’t replied?

Kind regards to you Ellad

[Milamoh]

my apologies for misspelling your name Elad, I couldn't recall the message

[Elad]

Hi Mila, good start!

I noticed that there was sharper noticing,,, mind searching for something then getting lost in thoughts about what the implications of this statement means, I noticed that there were images of bodies moving around going about doing things. I am also noticing just now that I deleted a sentence that had “bodies controlled by the unseen” it was deleted because there was a realisation that “contolling” is exactly what the statement said there isn’t ….

Just notice that there are beliefs happening here, either a belief in something unseen controlling, or a belief in my words about "no controller". Either way for you right now are beliefs and thoughts - not what we are after.

Thoughts can express and point but are never the real point :)

The point here is to beyond beliefs and to what is directly experienced. Here is a little text from another guide about "direct experience", pointing to the simplicity (it can feel insulting to some minds, because it is so "basic", but simplicity is the name of the game here:


Coloured Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that
there is nothing to give up.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up
with an answer:
• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember
putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they
actually are!
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear
about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not
interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on
in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct
experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


-------

And here is an exercise to connect with direct experience in its simplicity:


Direct Experience

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing
them with stories about what they are.
Give it some time

Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe
the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience (DE).


Let me know how this goes.

Oh my mind is unfolding Ellad as I type this, am noticing thoughts about how I or there is thinking that movement is a controller … something about movement being directed by someone and I am noticing more and more how there is always a second “person” or thing or noticer when am writing to you correcting or fact checking everything … feel a bit crazy right now…

Good noticing. So are you two persons? The one thinking/doing AND the one noticing? Or could it be that neither exist as a person/separate self, but are just imagined to be a person/self automatically and habitually? You don't have to answer this one right away, just let it percolate.

but going back to what happened immediately after the uttering of the statement. I paused three or 4 times cause I seemed to sense sensations in my tummy ? at some point even a bit of nausea … and something around the face – like nausea or vagueness like dizziness,,,

This process can evoke strong feelings and sensations. More about that later.

but the most obvious one for me above them all seems to be that there was energy focused on what was said yet nothing in my outside reality really changed. Everything I said above was internal in mind and sensations as I stated…

Do you imagine something outside needs to change? Nothing outside will change. In fact nothing will change. It will just be seen that there is no separate self in how things already are! It is a little like understanding that Santa Claus is not real. The man at the mall is still dressed up the same and you still have Christmas. Did anything real dissapear or change because you understood that Santa was a fiction? No the normal world is the same. The only change is that a fiction was recognized as a faction, and it is clear it was always that way and will always be that way.

Mila wants to get this right …

The passion is good for the process! And at the same time, paradoxically, it's helpful to have a relaxed playful attitude. You cannot do this (the imagination of a you that can succeed is what will be seen through). So just relax - at the same time that you use all the passion to LOOK at the exercises and questions - and let discovery happen in its own pace.

just heard neighnours talking and didn’t know what to make of the experience given what I was just uttering about there being no separate self

The neighbors will continue to be neighbors and you will continue to be able to "control" /hold your breath on the conventional level but not your neighbors breath. Nothing normal will change. And it will be seen that there is really no real separate controller in any of it. It sounds paradoxical. For now accept that the mind is trying to get it right in thought, and that this is not in your control, it is just a habit, and it is also not the point here, awakening never happens inside thinking, it happens in simple direct experience. So we just see how the mind tries to get it right and understand, and let it go again and again, and return to direct looking.

I had a long day but will continue with this and more so in the morning when its quiet – in the early hours before my meditation and after – and I hope its ok if I write to you again then even if you haven’t replied?

Yes you are welcome to write anytime there is something to regarding this process.

[Milamoh]

Kind Greetings Elad

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Pls allow me to just communicate freely what thinking there is here about this statement. My sense is that this statement is pointing to layers of thought. Knowing references mind and belief eg not giving up the story about who I am, where I was born.. these are thoughts and thought creation, a lot that exists in our consensus reality – BUT “seeing that there is nothing to give up” is realising in there here and now that the story doesn’t exist and one cant give up something that doesn’t exist that isn’t in there here and now, that cant be felt and touched here and now, cant be experienced with my senses as itself. Yes the body can be touched here and now, but can a “Mila” be touched here and now? Where is this Mila. So there is something about thought existing as itself and another layer where we associate the thought with something that exists here and now.

However Elad there reason I stated that my sense is that it is all form of thought, is that before someone taught me about a body and pointed to a body , I am not sure that I knew what a body was necessarily. Hence lately I always point myself and others to the fact that a child standing infront of a mirror doesn’t necessarily know that the body they see in the mirror is theirs so the mind hasn’t conditioned and internalised its own body to the name and to what it sees. At some point it will, is this not a deeper layer of thought?, of mind?

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up
with an answer:
• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember
putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they
actually are!
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

I am not sure about 100% certain by looking

,,, does looking guarantee me certainty of knowing the colour of thoughts? What if – as per my example above, I was never taught what colours are – I could look but I wouldn’t be certain unless I was once taught about colours isn’t it? So what would be happening is just looking in the here and now, first layer of experience or seeing ,,, then the second layer of referencing – searching for the answer in mind would start playing out?

I have more to share … so much seemed to arrive when I was contemplating on our conversation whilst jogging, so much so that it felt like all that was there whilst I jogged was the sensation of moving cause all else seemed to be mind referencing itself and telling stories about whats around me or creating what it has in its storage eg - the body or my body – almost got a bit spooked thinking I was alone in the world – heeheheh

I Will write again soon Elad
Really appreciating the love and guidance you are pouring my way

[Milamoh]

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up
with an answer:
• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember
putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they
actually are!

Oh my word Elad – its for real … when you say I can only be certain by looking … you are saying the story actually ends there. Seeing ? as in reality is just seeing ... the rest is indeed MIND coming up with an answer. basically exactly what I was saying about “what if I was not taught… that everything else is made up … I was just in the kitchen and I applied the exercise of removing the labels – I used to find it hard to do … but for some reason … the experience was a little nearer today… I had a sense that without labels I just remain with seeing … perhaps seeing something … the same thing ,,, but mind has coloured it, textured it, etc even then truth is I don’t know unless I touch it and have a differentiated experience but just looking at it doesn’t mean its there… I am not sure but am not able to pick up a sense from looking …. Not in my body I cant … then I remembered the body is made up .. wait wait.. hehehe I will be back
Just an update … am still looking…

[Elad]

Hi Mila,

You are clearly a deep thinker and everything you write are philosophically valid claims. A lot of it is also stuff that can point to deep realization. But really the only thing that matters here is what is truly realized "for you", what is directly experienced as liberating.

The challenge for us here will be to help attention move from understandings to direct experience and realization. Your experience with being "a little closer" with just looking is a good movement in this direction.

Here is another exercise to continue "the movement":

Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities


Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you
can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= sight
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) during the next day as you go about life, internally speaking it (sight, smell, sound, sensation, thought).

Write me what is experienced.

[Elad]

Oh and it is a little confusing for me the way you use the quote function, please rewatch the video on using it. See how it looks when I quote you in earlier posts. You can use "preview" to check.

[Milamoh]

Greetings Elad

I hope you are well

Oh and it is a little confusing for me the way you use the quote function, please rewatch the video on using it. See how it looks when I quote you in earlier posts. You can use "preview" to check.

My apologies for carelessness in previous communication, I have relistened to the video a number of times and checked your use of the Quote function. I will use the preview option too and ensure all is clear and as it should be, pls do excuse me.

The challenge for us here will be to help attention move from understandings to direct experience and realization

I am already so challenged, I hardly have any continuity with this ... but am keeping at it as much as possible... what am noticing is a "forgetting" and then finding myself in thinking, sometimes I cant even catch a thought , I find myself in automatic doing ... without thought ... or rather awareness of having had a thought. The other thing that is experienced is how very quickly the labelling is of the action that's happening rather than the sense eg walking, eg drinking , instead of walking as sense, and drinking as taste.. I have to keep pausing step back re- label. There is a feeling of a bit of despair - a sensation around throat and chest - that one is hopeless (thought) in the form of those sensations. Many other thoughts about hoping Elad doesnt give up on me - deep thinker - thought of as deeply lost in thought. Am just communicating what keeps arising - then I remind myself to "stay with the process" and take it one step at a time - and allow Grace to do the rest. I will continue with this exercise and once back at work set alarms of consciously doing it cause as I indicated the habitual lost in action and thought has so much momentum I see. The mind has already deciphered that the execise is valuable as it will create sharp contrast between those experiences and what remains - which I believe (belief) or will be what we really are or what has always been here or what remains ... am exposing this thinking but like you said its all philosophy so I am committed to staying with the exercise I really do get the importance of it as demonstrated through the example of the socks ... feels like a lost cause given how spiraling is deeply rooted here (my son keeps saying mom you are spiraling halt halt)

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for a while.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling everything into objects and is embellishing
them with stories about what they are.
Give it some time

Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe
the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience (DE).

When I do this exercise I noticed my attention comes back to the empty space between things not there and not here in the body , then I become aware of sensation - a lot of the time its tension and a bit of pressure in the body's face.

I also didnt share that I continued to do this yesterday morning T

There is no separate self, no one in control, there never has been and never will be!

and I noticed that attention was going to the creation of this statement each time and everything remained as it is, almost as if there was an arising of the words and then a going back to what is being seen and experience before the arising, infact even the noticing of cars passing, feels like a pop in and out - I remain with this sssssssss noise that is always - almost always with me - sound- its very much here now...

The sensation of lump in throat and tears - at feeling so lost is here, dont really know why but I suspect realisation of too many thoughts - pls dont give up on me and pls push as much as you have to Elad - thank you ... voice say "oh stop with the drama"

thanks again
despairing but committed Mila