Step 5, doubt, and wanting to be done with this

[avare]

Also, how do you expect your moment to moment experience of being alive would be different if you were awake?

the expectations are that there wouldnt be judging or worrying/this constant mental gymnastics that happens about things that arent even possible. the ifs, coulds, shouldas, wills. either they wouldnt be present so much or they would, but there wouldnt be any ground, any realness to them. it would just be noticed as part of experience, not as something that matters, that needs to be solved or fixed.

the other main thing, which i hadnt really noticed until you asked, but seems to be a strong expectation, is that there would be more authenticity. i read, from jed mckenna's trilogy, how pretty much all the ways we act are performative and out of fear/a neediness to control (which is impossible). so there is an idea that right now the actions taken are out of fear, that they are fake, and when id be awake, there wouldnt be this doubt about it being authentic/this fakeness. which, writing down, does not seem that coherent.

in the end it boils down to not minding the thoughts. they can be wilding out or mellowing down, but there would be no mistaking them for something true/real, as if their content mattered as anything more than just another equally meaningless part of experience.

How do you think that all is for me or anyone else who is awake?

your sense of moving through space and time is not there, there is more open curiosity and acceptance to what is happening now, and the inner content is not separated from experience, so is equally accepted and taken to be no different than any object in the visual field, or something along those lines, of not minding the thoughts.

Can we agree to post within 24 hours of receiving a reply from each other?

Yes. 100%. I am sorry, and disappointed that these past posts have been so slow in my part. this connects to my earlier post about choosing, but even though it didn't happen, there is still a lot of judging for failing to do it, or procrastinating. are these types of thoughts still occurring because the brain thinks that they are helpful?

thank you for taking the time to read through all of this and being so incredibly helpful and patient!

[bluzulu]

Thanks Lucas, yes let's keep it going!

You’ve explained exactly what the problem is. 😊

And I can tell you that:
Judging and worrying are not the problem
Mental gymnastics are not the problem
ifs, coulds, shouldas, wills are not the problem
the feeling that these things happen with a feeling that they matter is not the problem
the idea that the actions taken are out of fear (or even when actions are happening out of fear) is not the problem
mistaking them for something true/real is not the problem
thoughts feelings of judging are not the problem
procrastinating is not the problem
these thoughts occurring is not the problem

and if you don't know what the problem is, that's not the problem!

So what might really be the problem?


By the way, you are right about what it is like for me. But not all the time. And even when that is not what it is not for me, it is not a problem.

[bluzulu]

Lucas, a correction.

By the way, you are right about what it is like for me. But not all the time. And even when that is not what it is not for me, it is not a problem

Aside from the triple negative grammatical error, there are times when worries about the future happen, and times when annoyance occurs, and times when there are feelings of sadness.

Worries or annoyance are suffering because they include wanting things to be different. Fortunately, recognition of this now happens increasingly quickly, and there is a return to simple awareness of just the experience of what is happening now. And even if the feelings are still there, they have then lost the aversion component.
And a smile always happens because that acceptance includes insight into how they happened under those particular circumstances, which makes them less likely to occur again in similar circumstances.

For me, at this stage, how fast the return to simple awareness occurs with those suffering episodes does seem to strongly correlate with how often there have been (even very brief) breaks from goal/value driven activity to intentionally practice relaxing the senses open to what is happening in-skin and out-skin as all one big continuous field of experience.

The sadness is not suffering. It is just a feeling without a felt “need” for things to be different and, like everything
else, it passes.

You're good, my friend. You're ok. Stay with me here.

[bluzulu]

Oh, and

there wouldnt be this doubt about it being authentic/this fakeness. which, writing down, does not seem that coherent.

Nice. What is not coherent about it?

there would be no mistaking them for something true/real

HaHa.....So that just shouldn’t be happening, or it must be something you are doing wrong? 😊

[avare]

Thank you again for the replies, and staying with me.

first, thank you for the preceding paragraph where you say what the problem is not.

So what might really be the problem?

first thought that popped up was that the problem is that 'my' experience is not like 'your' experience. and I think it is important to write this down because being completely honest this seems to be one of the sticking points here. elaborating, this problem, which mentally i can tell is not actually the problem, is that 'this' experience is not the awakened experience because...

here is where i do my best to point out why this is illogical:
there is a thought. a thought that is comparing an imagined possible experiencing to what is actually happening. the comparison shows that 'this' is lacking compared to the imagined state. BUT, from the start all we have is a thought appearing. a thought that makes quite an impossible conclusion--that 'this' is different from how it should be. following that logic 'this' will never be how it should be, because it is comparing what is, to something that isn't.

ok, now setting that aside. looking in direct experience, the problem is nowhere to be seen. there isn't anything that can be called a problem. there is no problem, that can be seen by looking. yes there are thoughts and expectations denying this, but this is it. this is what is, and even the thoughts are part of this too.

And even if the feelings are still there, they have then lost the aversion component.

thank you for clarifying this because i was actually having thoughts about this too. I was reading a sci-fi novel where the protagonist was having feelings of jealousy and fear, and i wondered if these feelings go away when awake, but it seems it's really just the aversion that goes.

You're good, my friend. You're ok. Stay with me here.

thank you for saying this. This reminder really does help.

[avare]

Nice. What is not coherent about it?

what i think i meant there was that it felt very circular reasoning ish. the doubts that the actions aren't authentic not being present would mean the actions are authentic, however it is only the presence of the doubts that makes the actions not authentic. just, when i was writing that down it all felt oddly blurry, a sort of orwellian doublethink. the doubts are part of what is happening, part of the actions this organism takes.

HaHa.....So that just shouldn’t be happening, or it must be something you are doing wrong? 😊

it seems to signal 'not being there yet'. less so of doing something wrong or it shouldn't be happening , but more like if i was awake they wouldnt be there so them being there implies not awake yet--- caught another contradiction just by beginning to write this out. from this logic no one can ever be awake bc the thoughts/habits lag behind the understanding so using it as a measure of success only prolongs the delusion of failure.

as i was writing the above, there was noticing of the language that was being used, being awake and everything 'if i was awake' and whatnot. what other language do you think can be used? it seems that using that type of language, while there is an understanding of there not being an 'I" that can or cannot be awake, there is no need to keep using this type of language bc it could just prolong the subtle misconception.

it is quite interesting how easily a lot of these seemingly thought-out ideas are seen to be very half-baked and blurry just by writing them down for a minute.

i quite enjoyed the question of what the problem is you posed. is there perhaps another or maybe i should stick with this question, that can be used throughout the day? like every time there is noticing of attention being lost in thoughts, a pointed sort of question to direct attention to what is.

[bluzulu]

Huge smile of happiness for you here!

That is so beautifully and coherently expressed!
Yes, that's it exactly.

As you've no doubt noticed, the language generally used in my posts refers to something that happens or has happened, to differentiate events in this particular organism from something that was done by the normal dualistic meaning of "I" or "me".

If you're ok with using that now, that's fine, and perhaps a more convenient way of language for us to use may get written here ;-)

On the other hand, if you completely trust that there there is no self within Lucas' skin that is doing anything, we can just use normal language.

like every time there is noticing of attention being lost in thoughts, a pointed sort of question to direct attention to what is.

Well, perhaps a question that will be helpful for now will occur to you! And then an updated iteration of that question or reminder will occur after some use of the first one.
And if you still want, of course, we can talk about it.

Subsequent to our discussions, today there has been a lot of noticing old physio and cognitive reactions to events with some insights helpful to me and perhaps to you regarding how it is for me.
.
Likely tomorrow I’ll write about them for us.

All Good!!!

[avare]

On the other hand, if you completely trust that there there is no self within Lucas' skin that is doing anything, we can just use normal language.

this, like other non-duality related things, 'seems' true sporadically, not as a new default way to live, or as a thing known to always be true. So perhaps thoughts and fingers moving here will do their best to not use 'I' language, or perhaps not since it does take a bit more conscious maneuvering of language.

And if you still want, of course, we can talk about [using questions].

yes, if you have any examples or interesting pointers, that would be definitely interesting! One question that arose here was that I can't touch color. Outside of the experience of color there is no feeling color, yes there can be moving towards an 'object' but then the feeling is not that of the color but now a different experience. Seemed interesting :)

Some thoughts arose about 'trying to get somewhere' and I was curious if you're familiar with Angelo Dilulo's teachings? Because in his pointings there is a definite 'shifting' of experience that happens which marks a marked difference in living going forth, and that does not seem to really correspond to anything happening here, which leads to ideas to pop up about 'getting' to the shift. Just wanted to hear your thoughts :)

Would also love to hear the physio experiences you mentioned!

[bluzulu]

On the other hand, if you completely trust that there is no self within Lucas' skin that is doing anything, we can just use normal language.

this, like other non-duality related things, 'seems' true sporadically, not as a new default way to live, or as a thing known to always be true.

When you say ‘seems’ true, do you mean it fits logic and evidence, or …?

So perhaps thoughts and fingers moving here will do their best to not use 'I' language,

haha, we never know, do we? Just as my response here took longer than the 24 hours I was aiming for.

or perhaps not since it does take a bit more conscious maneuvering of language.

Just do whatever is comfortable for you, though that does bring up a question for you:
Please carefully distinguish in your replies what was observed to happen on its own and what seems to be the result of a conscious choice. And when the latter happens please watch it very very carefully and report how the choice happened

One question that arose here was that I can't touch color. Outside of the experience of color there is no feeling color, yes there can be moving towards an 'object' but then the feeling is not that of the color but now a different experience. Seemed interesting :)

that is interesting. Some people notice emotional reactions to some colors. If you look closely, can you find anything like that?

Some thoughts arose about 'trying to get somewhere' and I was curious if you're familiar with Angelo Dilulo's teachings? Because in his pointings there is a definite 'shifting' of experience that happens which marks a marked difference in living going forth, and that does not seem to really correspond to anything happening here, which leads to ideas to pop up about 'getting' to the shift. Just wanted to hear your thoughts :)

No, have only heard of him, but your question moved me to investigate a bit. it looks like he encourages much more body awareness than we are doing in LU. And what he seems to be saying makes a lot of sense to me, definitely fits with neuroscience, and now has become of great interest to me. So thanks!

Would also love to hear the physio experiences you mentioned!

Essentially it was simply that some unpleasant emotional responses of avoidance last longer, even days, and become objects of interest but without any attempt to ‘figure them out’. And that nearly always results in some kind of spontaneous helpful insight. And how those are responses to events of longer duration.

It seems that brief events to which there is a quick emotional/cognitive reaction (for example, a brief traffic hazard from a distracted driver) are the ones that result in a chuckle at how old patterns of interpretation/judgement/response can happen so quickly. Both of these types of responses seem to indicate that there are many ways the old illusion of separate self has been imbedded in different parts of our mind/body.

LU discourages other forms of inquiry while one is working with a guide, but if you are drawn to learn more about what Angelo is saying I fully support that and it might very well help us here!

Cheers,
/p

[bluzulu]

Hi Lucas. A more experienced guide just told me that LU actually does not discourage other forms of inquiry in this process. Not sure where I got that idea but it was clearly mistaken. He was also concerned that perhaps my message might imply that LU is all mental and didn’t include body awareness. Although the sensory awareness interaction I sent did include the body, I am elaborating on it after reviewing the research more closely.

I’m curious about the ‘shift’ that Angelo talks about, and whether it is a sudden complete and permanent transformation or……?

Cheers,
/p

[avare]

When you say ‘seems’ true, do you mean it fits logic and evidence, or …?

yes that it fits logic, but also that if I pause, and take some time to look at the moment, then sometimes I can say that it is true based only on experience. as i write this, there's a lot of doubt about whether this has ever actually happened though. if through experience alone it is true, vs from just being told so.

haha, we never know, do we? Just as my response here took longer than the 24 hours I was aiming for.

definitely! there is still judgment and guilt whenever aversion happens or procrastination (like last night, when i meant to have replied)

Please carefully distinguish in your replies what was observed to happen on its own and what seems to be the result of a conscious choice. And when the latter happens please watch it very very carefully and report how the choice happened

by what language was used whenever there is a reply? like spontaneously using non-dual language vs I/me? Then attaching that at each reply? For now it seems that there is only non-dual language being used retrospectively. Like the thoughts are happening right before typing them out(a bit faster) and when that thought is noticed, it is edited in the writing. sometimes deleting and rephrasing, even.

that is interesting. Some people notice emotional reactions to some colors. If you look closely, can you find anything like that?

not so much color, but I notice that my room has taken a sort of anti 'non-dual' feeling. Where looking around or at the walls there's the thoughts that it is harder to just look at what is without the story.

And what he seems to be saying makes a lot of sense to me, definitely fits with neuroscience, and now has become of great interest to me. So thanks!

Of course! He is the only non-duality youtuber that i still listen/watch.

Thank you for the physio examples you sent. Here are some thoughts that popped up while reading: that perhaps there was a seeing here. because there is more noticing whenever judging happens and sometimes some chuckles. But still almost 24/7 the seeking/goal getting is still going on, and reactions to thoughts /thoughts about thoughts happen all the time still.

A separate question, is there anything (or should there even be something) to do about a lack of motivation/drive? Non-duality and seeing through and being done with this is still the only real goal I have, but recently there hasnt been much of a drive to do anything related to it. The relaxed practice, looking, inquiry, any sort of meditation or practice. They still occur sometimes, when I walk or think about the future, but not often. And the way I see it now (could be wrong) but all it takes is just looking, looking until it is seen through clearly. Or is this perhaps back to expectations or other things. From the LU method, the shift can be seen through in an instant, so I'm not sure.

I’m curious about the ‘shift’ that Angelo talks about, and whether it is a sudden complete and permanent transformation or……?

from what I understand, it is not a permanent transformation, there is still shadow work and embodying that happens but from that point on it all happens spontaneously. The mechanism itself of seeking has been seen through and identification with thought shattered. He usually says that after the shift happens, there is a honeymoon period of pure effortless happening for perhaps some days or weeks or months, but then the shadow work comes back as habit and conditioned reactions still play out.

[bluzulu]

but also that if I pause, and take some time to look at the moment

did “you” consciously choose to pause before you paused, or did it just happen?

a lot of doubt about whether this has ever actually happened

did “you” choose to have that doubt?
Did that doubt affect “your” actions (eg writing about it, having memories of the past)?

the thoughts are happening right before typing them

did “you” choose to have those thoughts?

and reactions to thoughts /thoughts about thoughts happen all the time still.

did “you” choose to have those reactions?

recently there hasnt been much of a drive to do anything related to it. The relaxed practice, looking, inquiry, any sort of meditation or practice. They still occur sometimes, when I walk or think about the future, but not often

did you choose for them to occur?

Notice the feeling and thought responses to reading this now.
Did “you” choose to have them?

From the LU method, the shift can be seen through in an instant

Where did that idea come from? At least for me, there have been and continue to be a number of shifts, not just rational, but perceptual. Like when you see the image in one of those magic eye pictures. Each one is an aha moment, but it often takes a while to really integrate, and then days or weeks later there is another aha moment, etc.
May they never cease! 😊

Seeing through the identification with thoughts was just the first one, and that was pretty much the end of seeking.

The mechanism itself of seeking has been seen through and identification with thought shattered

Did “you” choose to have a feeling of desire to know?

If the answer to the above questions is No, then what the heck does this “you” do???

[bluzulu]

Right now, Lucas.
Stop trying.
Just notice how things are happening.
Thoughts, feelings, urges, movements of attention.

NOT for the purpose of achieving anything.
When/if thoughts about this or anything else happen, notice how they happen!
Just notice how it happens NOW!

[avare]

did “you” consciously choose to pause before you paused, or did it just happen?

nope, whenever the pauses do happen, same as the thoughts to 'do it', it was never caused by 'me'.

did “you” choose to have that doubt?
Did that doubt affect “your” actions (eg writing about it, having memories of the past)?

Nope, the doubt was just a thought which then was labeled post-hoc 'doubt'. but like every other thought that comes up, it was not chosen. it just happened. It does seem that the doubt affect the actions this organism took, like reacting to the thought, but those actions as well are not chosen. Well, they are sort of chosen by reactions to thoughts but they are not chosen by 'me'.

did “you” choose to have those thoughts?

No. but it does 'appear' that way. even the deliberating and pausing to look if 'I' chose the thought, is happening by itself. there is the looking with the thought accompanying it.

did “you” choose to have those reactions?

Nope! where attention goes, how the body reacts to thoughts and actions and experiences, all just happens without choice.

did you choose for them to occur?

no. the looking does seem to proceed after certain thoughts bring attention to non-duality/some question or inquiry, but the thoughts were not chosen and where attention goes was not chosen either. everything just happens.

Do you have any line of inquiry or video involving time? It seems that the pattern of my doubts is on 'trying to achieve something through time' which means that there's still belief about time existing.

Notice the feeling and thought responses to reading this now.
Did “you” choose to have them?

No. In fact, last night I had replied to all of these questions before hand, then this question led me to walk out to have dinner (not clicking send in the process, and losing my replies) which was a different reaction that is occurring now to reading and responding.

Where did that idea come from? At least for me, there have been and continue to be a number of shifts, not just rational, but perceptual. Like when you see the image in one of those magic eye pictures. Each one is an aha moment, but it often takes a while to really integrate, and then days or weeks later there is another aha moment, etc.

From reading the LU book, but the shift I am talking about is the thought-identification one. Just that first bit to end seeking and just let the rest happen spontaneously.

Seeing through the identification with thoughts was just the first one, and that was pretty much the end of seeking.

This!

Did “you” choose to have a feeling of desire to know?

If the answer to the above questions is No, then what the heck does this “you” do???

No. It is just a reaction of neurons firing, without any choice involved. What do 'I' do then? Nothing. Thoughts appear, the body moves, attention goes where attention goes.

[bluzulu]

OK, thanks.
So where is the thought identification?

Do you have any line of inquiry or video involving time? It seems that the pattern of my doubts is on 'trying to achieve something through time' which means that there's still belief about time existing.

Time is a useful construct, isn't it?
But do you actually believe the past or future exist somewhere?