Glimpses of non-separation

[ditti]

Hi Elad,

I really appreciated the extra elaboration you offered in your last message on the manifestation of no-self and the potential danger of it becoming yet another conviction. You've conveyed it in such a beautiful and easy to understand way. Thank you - I feel touched by and grateful for your caring support.

Good. Now keep looking for this "hint of feeling". Where is it in the body? What is it really?

I have tried to look directly at this "hint of self" business, and it seems to be very stubborn. I can't quite point out where it is in the body. It seems to "emerge" or be attached to the place in my sensory experience that has been activated at any given moment. E.g. when I hear a sound, the sense of self seems to be conjured up in the felt reverberations of that sound in my sensory experience. This does make it clearer and clearer that it's in constant flux - appearing and disappearing in different places in my experience, shrinking and expanding, etc. Yet, there's this stubborn idea, yes idea, and not a direct experience, that the self is like an empty transparent container in which all of these changing experiences appear. Even though I can't find it in direct experience, this thought experiencing of it seems so real to my mind. Like it doesn't want to relax fully into or trust my direct experience.

But the insight hasn't yet seemed to sink in.

What in direct experience tells that?

It seems to be a thought. Unsure what it is in direct experience. When you use the term direct experience by the way do you refer to sensory/somatic experience?
I guess for it to have "sunk in" I expect an experience to see something that I can't unsee after. A changed view of experience. And these are again just thoughts and expectations and not a direct experience. Maybe it's a lack of fully trusting my direct experience and not knowing / daring to relax into the letting go of concepts.

[Elad]

I really appreciated the extra elaboration you offered in your last message on the manifestation of no-self and the potential danger of it becoming yet another conviction. You've conveyed it in such a beautiful and easy to understand way. Thank you - I feel touched by and grateful for your caring support.

🤍

I have tried to look directly at this "hint of self" business, and it seems to be very stubborn. I can't quite point out where it is in the body. It seems to "emerge" or be attached to the place in my sensory experience that has been activated at any given moment. E.g. when I hear a sound, the sense of self seems to be conjured up in the felt reverberations of that sound in my sensory experience. This does make it clearer and clearer that it's in constant flux - appearing and disappearing in different places in my experience, shrinking and expanding, etc.

Good seeing here.

Yet, there's this stubborn idea, yes idea, and not a direct experience, that the self is like an empty transparent container in which all of these changing experiences appear. Even though I can't find it in direct experience, this thought experiencing of it seems so real to my mind. Like it doesn't want to relax fully into or trust my direct experience.

Notice this is "thinking about", not just looking. The story about how it is going for me. What does this "me in the story" refer to in direct experience? Look many times!!

But the insight hasn't yet seemed to sink in.

What in direct experience tells that?

It seems to be a thought.

Seems or is? Look, clarify, answer.

Code: Select all

Unsure what it is in direct experience. When you use the term direct experience by the way do you refer to sensory/somatic experience?

Could answer the five sense-gates and the experiencing of thoughts as thoughts (whereas the content of thoughts is not direct experience).

Like the Buddhist sutra goes: In the seen only the seen, in the heard only the heard... Etc.

Even simpler: Direct experience is what is there no matter what you believe or don't believe, it is just directly experienced. As opposed to what is believed, imagined, thought...

The problem with asking for a definition can be that it then becomes a mind belief "oh this is the claim about what direct experience is", and...... That is a thought! So instead you need to put all energy into your own discovery of what is direct experience and what is not. Look again and again: what is the difference between "seeing/direct recognition" and speculating, imagining, hypothising, analyzing, "thinking about."

I guess for it to have "sunk in" I expect an experience to see something that I can't unsee after. A changed view of experience. And these are again just thoughts and expectations and not a direct experience. Maybe it's a lack of fully trusting my direct experience and not knowing / daring to relax into the letting go of concepts.

The tendency to analyze what is going on for you is so normal! And... Here just see it for what it is: movement of thought. And return to direct inquiry into what is here and what is not in direct experience:


Does the word/thought self refer to a real self in direct experience?

Is there a separate me owning or controlling actions, movements, thoughts?


Return to this many many many times.

[ditti]

Hi Elad,

Yet, there's this stubborn idea, yes idea, and not a direct experience, that the self is like an empty transparent container in which all of these changing experiences appear. Even though I can't find it in direct experience, this thought experiencing of it seems so real to my mind. Like it doesn't want to relax fully into or trust my direct experience.

Notice this is "thinking about", not just looking. The story about how it is going for me. What does this "me in the story" refer to in direct experience? Look many times!!

I am looking for the "me in the story" in my direct experience and I can't find it. I am typing this on my keyboard, the fingers keep moving, these words are appearing on the screen, and in a way it's just seem to be happening. When I am forming the words in my mind that I am writing down, the idea of self is not present. My mind is not thinking about the self. There is pressure on my buttocks against the chair and against my fingertips as they get in contact with the keys of the keyboard. And it all just seems to be unfolding.

What in direct experience tells that?

It seems to be a thought.

Seems or is? Look, clarify, answer.

It is a thought.

[Elad]

Good good.

Try this exercise:

Mind labelling experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes
about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any
bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a
computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just
a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this
time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using
verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again,
watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was
labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and if so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels create the direct experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

[ditti]

Hi Elad,

Thank you for this prompt. I really enjoyed this exercise. And I really appreciate your guidance and care <3

I inserted my answers for each question below.

Try this exercise:

Mind labelling experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes
about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any
bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a
computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just
a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this
time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using
verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again,
watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was
labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and if so, which one?

Both while I was writing them and upon reading them, the version without using the "I" felt truer as it was closer what I actually experienced. I almost had to force the "I" into the sentences in the first round.

2. What is here without labels?

A stream of sensations, emotions, thoughts that come and go seemingly fully automatically.

3. Do labels create the direct experience or just describe it?

They don't create it no. Although sometimes I experience that getting fixed on a concept eg of an emotion can actually contribute to amplifying the connecting sensations.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

My body felt more contracted when I was writing in the "I" form. There was a sense of relief and ease coming from letting go of the "I", in connecting to the experience without the "I" getting in the way somehow.

[Elad]

Beautiful, very clear.

3. Do labels create the direct experience or just describe it?

They don't create it no. Although sometimes I experience that getting fixed on a concept eg of an emotion can actually contribute to amplifying the connecting sensations.

Yes obviously thoughts that are believed effect change in sensations and experience.

AND at the same time: When we pay close attention to direct experience, we see that it is here prior to the descriptions of it. If this is not clear, check!

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

My body felt more contracted when I was writing in the "I" form. There was a sense of relief and ease coming from letting go of the "I", in connecting to the experience without the "I" getting in the way somehow.

Yes! Often contraction in the body can indicate believing, speaking or saying something in contradiction to direct experience of truth, whereas ease comes from allignment with it. Some call that "the body yes/body no", that can support clarity of choices and actions (and it happens by itself, with no separate self). Play around with noticing that in day to day life.



Here is another exercise:


“I” labelling

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and
the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a
thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self
side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to
feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go
on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I
was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

[ditti]

Hi Elad,

Yes obviously thoughts that are believed effect change in sensations and experience.

AND at the same time: When we pay close attention to direct experience, we see that it is here prior to the descriptions of it. If this is not clear, check!

When I pay attention it is indeed the experience that the initial arising of thoughts are triggered by sensory experience that precedes them.

Yes! Often contraction in the body can indicate believing, speaking or saying something in contradiction to direct experience of truth, whereas ease comes from allignment with it. Some call that "the body yes/body no", that can support clarity of choices and actions (and it happens by itself, with no separate self). Play around with noticing that in day to day life.

Hmm this is a very interesting way of putting it. I'm excited to explore this more in direct experience!

Here is another exercise:

“I” labelling

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

I have found this exercising quite eye-opening. I could hardly notice any thoughts that were not somehow labeled with "I". I heard the birds chirping outside and I really tried to just hear the sound, but there seemed to be a very subtle and automatic attaching of the thought that "I" hear the birds. It happened in such a silent, subtle, almost invisible/undetectable way.

During the 5 minutes I only noticed two thoughts in which the "I" didn't seem to be present. And those were actually moments of mind-wandering - moments of getting lost in a story (which did not include me) and thus forgetting about the I (and everything else). But that seemed more like the forgetfulness also made it impossible to see the "I" thoughts not that they're weren't there.

So basically, I had no mindful moments during the exercise in which had any thoughts that did not include the "I", ever so subtly.

[Elad]

I have found this exercising quite eye-opening. I could hardly notice any thoughts that were not somehow labeled with "I". I heard the birds chirping outside and I really tried to just hear the sound, but there seemed to be a very subtle and automatic attaching of the thought that "I" hear the birds. It happened in such a silent, subtle, almost invisible/undetectable way.

During the 5 minutes I only noticed two thoughts in which the "I" didn't seem to be present. And those were actually moments of mind-wandering - moments of getting lost in a story (which did not include me) and thus forgetting about the I (and everything else). But that seemed more like the forgetfulness also made it impossible to see the "I" thoughts not that they're weren't there.

So basically, I had no mindful moments during the exercise in which had any thoughts that did not include the "I", ever so subtly.

Perfect! The intention with this exercise is actually to make it more clear how the I sense is created in real time, rather then trying to get rid of it or go beyond it. This is generally true for this inquiry. We are not looking to get rid of the sense of self. We are just looking to get totally experientially clear about what it actually is and what it is not in direct experience.

So keep being curious about the sense of "I" without trying to get rid of it, and just be curious about what it consist of or where it is in any given moment.... Let me know what happens.

And, try this exercise:


Raising Hand Exercise

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not
the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like,
and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

[ditti]

Hi Elad,

Perfect! The intention with this exercise is actually to make it more clear how the I sense is created in real time, rather then trying to get rid of it or go beyond it. This is generally true for this inquiry. We are not looking to get rid of the sense of self. We are just looking to get totally experientially clear about what it actually is and what it is not in direct experience.

This is a very helpful way of putting it and it does clarify the path of this inquiry more. Thank you.

And, try this exercise:


Raising Hand Exercise

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

When I tried to completely stay with the experience, there was no chooser, no controller to be found anywhere. I couldn't find anything that was moving my hand. And couldn't really catch the decision either. Just a very elusive automatic process. The movement of the hand just felt like a smooth flowing of life in a way. I also noticed that when I stay with direct experience as fully as possible, thoughts quiet down to a point that the conceptualization of a "doer" itself ceases for the most part. So it basically seems that a doer is only seen (or mostly thought) when there are thoughts to think about it but not in direct experience.

[Elad]

Beautiful!

So it basically seems that a doer is only seen (or mostly thought) when there are thoughts to think about it but not in direct experience.

Is the doer "mostly thought" or ONLY CONTENT OF THOUGHT ? Can "the doer" ever be found or experienced except as the content of thought/fantasy ?

This is crucial.



Here are some more pointers to re-recognize the non-existence of the doer/chooser/responsible one:


1. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next
thought that will arise?

2. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction
etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

3. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at
what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion
that appeared in response to a stimulus?

4. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is
made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

6. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on
focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself?

7. Make some choices that involve movement. Stuff like sitting up or laying down. Jumping or standing on one leg. Reading a sentence in book A or book B. Sending a little kind message to person A or person B.

In each case (you don't have to do all of them, and you can improvise other action-choice-points):

Where does the choice come from ?

Where does the movement come from?

If a choice is blocked/stopped and some thinking happens and then another choice/action is taken, what decides that this blocking will happen or not happen, where does this blocking come from, is that where the separate self in control is?

Whatever feelings there is about a choice or movement, where do they come from, is there a you controlling them?


Describe what you see.

[ditti]

Hi Elad,

I feel sad that I couldn't find the time to do theseexercises and get back to you earlier. But I finally had a bit more spaciousness today, so I had time to experiment with the below pointers.

1. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

It doesn't seem like I can, no. It is driven by previous causes, like your above pointer here, or another sensory experience, or another thought before the thought. The more I look, the more it seems like an infinite regression, an endless chain of conditions giving rise to a thought. Like I can now think and seemingly "decide" that I am going to think about the pink elephant right now, and that I can do, but where did the pink elephant come into my mind from? So the decision on what to think itself appears to be an illusion and not an actual conscious decision.

2. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

No, I can't. I can only tune into what arises. So there is no self being in control of what arises. However, there are mental processes of tuning in that can amplify certain sensations over others. Doesn't mean that a separate self is doing that, more like that there is a continuous interaction / mutual feedback between mental and somatic sensations.

3. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

No, it all seems to happen as part of an automatic flow. I can't detect any chooser or controller behind the emotions, mental states that are arising.

4. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

No I did not know what number would be chosen beforehand. It again seems to have been an experience of infinite regression, if you will. Like seeing previous conditions and causes building up and flowing into each other, leading to the choice that is being made. But no way to find the ultimate origin point of the decision at the very beginning of this whole chain.

6. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself?

I noticed in this exercise that my mind is usually the one that runs after focus. So focus moves by itself first and then my mind tries to catch up with it, like "where did it go, what is it focusing on right now?"

7. Make some choices that involve movement. Stuff like sitting up or laying down. Jumping or standing on one leg. Reading a sentence in book A or book B. Sending a little kind message to person A or person B.

In each case (you don't have to do all of them, and you can improvise other action-choice-points):

Where does the choice come from ?

Where does the movement come from?

If a choice is blocked/stopped and some thinking happens and then another choice/action is taken, what decides that this blocking will happen or not happen, where does this blocking come from, is that where the separate self in control is?

Whatever feelings there is about a choice or movement, where do they come from, is there a you controlling them?

The answer to each of these is that I don't know. I don't know, I don't see where the choice or movement comes from. I can't seem to able to locate it anywhere. Like an idea of a movement just seems to pop up out of nowhere and then there's some process that decides whether my body will follow up on the idea or not. But at no point is a separate self is consulted / involved in the decision.

[Elad]

Hi Ditti


Good! And yes, try to touch space every day. Even if only doing some of the exercises. Try to not have days without looking and without writing even a little. And also look continuously during the day, many many times:

What is being imagined to be the self now? And can that be found in direct existence?


Another thing, notice when you use the word "seemingly". Like "seemingly thoughts cannot be controlled". Please look until it is clear, so it is not necessay to use the word seemingly. And again:

Can you control what the next thought is?

Now, lets look at sensing...


How about

seeing
hearing
feeling
smelling
tasting

Do any of these need a doer? Or they just are when/how they are? Remember with each one check in direct experience.

[Elad]

Ps. Philosophically we can always question and "qualify" anything...


Seemingly there is light when the sun shines
Seemingly 1 + 1 = 2
Seemingly there is experience rather then no experience
Seemingly Santa Claus and Uncorns do not exist
Seemingly we cannot fly like birds


The point here is not philosopical certainty - that doesn't exist. The point is to get to where it feels clear in your heart and bones. Then you remove the "seemingly" not because of intellectual/philosophical certainty, but because it FEELS clear to say it. Yes my name is Ditti Yes, I do not have control over what the next thought is! And I don't feel the need to say seemingly about it.

Makes sense?

[ditti]

Hi Elad,

The point here is not philosopical certainty - that doesn't exist. The point is to get to where it feels clear in your heart and bones. Then you remove the "seemingly" not because of intellectual/philosophical certainty, but because it FEELS clear to say it. Yes my name is Ditti Yes, I do not have control over what the next thought is! And I don't feel the need to say seemingly about it.

Good point! I usually find it hard to frame things in an absolutistic way, but I appreciate the value of not tiptoe-ing around experience in direct looking :)

What is being imagined to be the self now? And can that be found in direct existence?

I was writing about my experience using this pointer, and such a beautiful opening has just occurred. An incredible wave of bliss and relief to the point that tears started to roll down my cheeks and I just had to giggle. No self to be found, no "mover" doing any of my movements (eg grabbing cup of coffee, putting the cup down). Just impossible to point to the self in all of this. The sense of self really just keeps popping up in the thoughts and then solidifies and then fades again, etc. But it is nowhere really, and definitely not a constant entity. It feels like something is really shifting - the joy, the ease, the bliss of it. Like the dropping of a burden. It feels very beautiful and poignant.

[Elad]

Wonderful!!!


1) In your own time go through the all the senses, see if they contain/point to a self, i.e. is there a see'er in the seeing?

2) Continue to look is there anything at all that could be a real self? If yes, what?

3) About the sense of self, where or "as what" does the deepest sense of self hide? What is being most deeply identified with as if it is the self?